Why the hostility toward Mary?

[mangy_dog]

I’ve always heard it’s because they think (been told) that we worship Mary - and that worship should only be for God. Same thing with the Saints.

They do not accept that we can ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us and to intercede for us

You are correct Astro,

They don’t realize nor understand the difference between Dulia and Hyperdulia.

 

[PRmerger]

I will definitely not elaborate on details concerning Revelation. It is a no-go for me as long as I wish to be charitable and to be part of this forum.

Why does discussing Revelation make it difficult for you to remain charitable?

 

[pismopal]

Do you want me to elaborate?
Well I do not believe that Mary was ever-virgin (CCC 499-501), I do not believe in Mary’s Immaculate Conception (Ineffabilis Deus and CCC 491) and I do not believe in her Assumption (Munificentissimus Deus and CCC 966). Having said that I admit that my point of view certainly differs from that of Catholics, but that does not make me hostile towards Mary.
I do call her blessed. Of course she was blessed to have the privilege of giving birth to and raising the Saviour of the World. Yes, she indeed was blessed.
Who wouldn’t consider that an enormous blessing?
I haven’t even been blessed with a child, but she was blessed more than any other woman having had the privilege to give birth to our Saviour.
I am not hostile towards Mary. I just view her differently.

Christ raised a “friend” from the dead… the very dead but you have trouble believing that He might show some deference to His own Mother? Yes…I would say you do view her differently…much differently.

 

[Janet1983]

Why does discussing Revelation make it difficult for you to remain charitable?

I ask you, please, do not tempt me. You know as well as I do that Revelation is an enormous issue when it comes to relations between Evangelicals and Catholics.
Please, do not tempt me.

 

[Janet1983]

Yes…I would say you do view her differently…much differently.

I agree.

 

[PRmerger]

I ask you, please, do not tempt me. You know as well as I do that Revelation is an enormous issue when it comes to relations between Evangelicals and Catholics.
Please, do not tempt me.

As you wish.

 

[Janet1983]

BTW, Janet, I LOVE the quote in your signature:

It essentially is a reiteration of the ancient prayer we say at each and every Mass:

Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed

(which, of course, like all things said in the Divine Liturgy, comes from the Sacred Word itself).

This prayer is said 24/7, every day of the year except Good Friday. It, essentially, is the continual prayer of the Body of Christ!

Thank you.
Yes, I do remember that prayer. It was always very close to my heart (though not in English, but in German).
The German version is somewhat closer (almost word for word) to Matthew 8:8. It translates into the following:
“Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof, but speak only one word, then my soul will be healed.”

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you.
Yes, I do remember that prayer. It was always very close to my heart (though not in English, but in German).
The German version is somewhat closer (almost word for word) to Matthew 8:8. It translates into the following:
“Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof, but speak only one word, then my soul will be healed.”

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I know that in the protestant religion I was in…there was not necessarily hostility towards Mary but perhaps indifference. They didn’t see her as anything…she gave birth to Jesus but it could have been anyone. I think sometimes she gets wrapped up in those that have a hostility towards Catholics.

Marian doctrines was something I had set aside when I returned to the Catholic Church. However Fr. talked about it in RCIA and it all makes sense to me and I don’t see how it goes against scripture at all.

 

[dianaiad]

What Jon said.

You know, that’s extremely insightful. There is a kind of “knee-jerk” violent reaction against Mary, & that makes perfect sense… Thanks for the thought!!

Those of us who are not Catholic keep TELLING you that there is a huge difference between hostility toward Mary herself–and a disagreement with the Catholic way of dealing with her.

What is so difficult with that idea? We admire, respect and honor her greatly. We all call her ‘blessed.’ We are all fully aware of the unique role she played, and the incredible blessing she was given–and that she, in return, gave Jesus as she raised Him, and to us as she supported Him even in the choice to die for us.

Where in any of the above can anybody possibly see 'hostility?"

That many non-Catholics see what Catholics do in regard to her as actual worship and placing her right up there with Christ as a goddess–that’s not hostility toward Mary. If it is hostility at all, it is toward a treatment of her that many honestly believe that Mary herself hates. She is not her Son. She is the best of all women, but she is not her Son–and a bunch of us believe that she would be the very first person to point that out.

So please, separate the concepts here. Whether the perception of Catholic veneration of Mary as almost idol worship is correct or not, it’s still not hostility toward MARY. Whether anybody else understands completely the Catholic attitude toward Mary, or whether they misinterpret it and get it 100% wrong–it doesn’t matter. It’s still not hostility toward MARY.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Those of us who are not Catholic keep TELLING you that there is a huge difference between hostility toward Mary herself–and a disagreement with the Catholic way of dealing with her.

What is so difficult with that idea? We admire, respect and honor her greatly. We all call her ‘blessed.’

Maybe LDS do (I don’t know) but most Protestants regard her as an ordinary and sinful woman who is not blessed at all. Of course, if the Catholic view is correct then the Protestant view is in fact a great insult to Her and so to the handiwork of God. (Which is why many of us pray reparations.)

I do agree with you insofar as the abuses against Mary are usually not intentional due to ignorance. Hence they do not rise to the level of hostility.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It goes without saying that Protestants and Catholics have a very different view of Mary. Protestants view Mary as a devout woman chosen by God to bear His Son, but still a sinner just like all the rest of us. Since the Immaculate Conception is not expressly found in scripture, they reject it. Moreover, in the view of many Protestants, the Immaculate Conception would not have been necessary because Jesus did not have Mary’s DNA. She was merely an incubator for flesh that was exclusively of the Holy Spirit, not a biological mother. There is even one school of thought that maintains Mary could not be the biological mother of Jesus because if she had been, Jesus would have inherited original sin. Imagine that!

Protestants reject the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, even though it was affirmed by no less than Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley. They truly believe that Mary was the mother of at least six other children, maybe more.
Protestants regard the title Mother of God as blasphemous because they can’t (won’t) wrap their minds around this concept that actually transcends time.
Finally, Protestants reject the idea of the Assumption as being outside the Bible. They also reject the idea of praying to Mary or any of the other saints.

So, they believe Mary was a good woman given to a unique role, but one who lived and died and will be resurrected along with the rest of us at the end of the age.
Now, compare this with the Catholic view of Mary who sits at the right hand of Christ as Queen of Heaven, and who makes constant intercessions for us, and you see the two groups are talking about two different people. Protestants love and respect what they regard as the Mary of the Bible, but they do have considerable hostility toward the Catholic Mary who they believe is either a goddess of something so close to being a goddess that honoring her would be sinful. Sort of like honoring the pagan Minerva or Diana. Those Protestants who hate Mary regard the Catholic Mary as equally pagan.

Of course many Protestants just ignore Mary and never think about her except at Christmas.

Hard to understand what people are interpreting reading the Bible. Though Luke pretty much starts off with Angels sent from God to Mary? Then Mary has a Son…GOD!

I can’t understand how some believe somehow their life is somehow comparable to The Blessed Mother or her Son…Jesus Christ? “Sinners like the rest of us” Is that the message Protestants are getting?

Aside from that, I can’t find the passage where Mary is a sinner in the Holy Bible?

It could be the level of understanding ones reaching?

 

[elvisman]

Thanks, Elvis. I agree with this. I’ll come back to Baptismal regeneration in a moment.

Would you say, then, that as long as I remain Lutheran, I am refusing the Church?
In a sense, yes.
I say, “in a sense” because there*** may***** be a certain level of invincible ignorance that applies here. I don’t know if it does – only you and God do.**

---

The thing about invincible ignorance is that it is not an excuse or alibi and shouldn’t be leaned on as such.

Yes. It might depend on the definition of “The Church”. You would define it, would you not, as consisting only

of the institutional Catholic Church, that is, those in communion with the Bishop of Rome?
A Lutheran, such as myself, would define the Church as the congregation of believers, where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. Further, the Church is the whole of those believers, the communion of saints. To which, I might add, the Catholic Church is a significant and indeed important part.
I would then ask you to provide Biblical or historical** proof**** for your definition of “Church”.**

Does this affirm, in your mind, what I have offered as your definition of “The Church”?

On invinsible ignorance, I have been told by some Catholics here that, and n-C’s go, I have a fairly good grasp, generally, of Catholic teaching. DOes this mean that, the more I learn, my chances for salvation are correspondingly reduce?
I would say that as knowledge increases, there is much more you need to** reject**** – AND** accept**.**

And yet the catechism says that through my Baptism, I am incorporated into His body, or words to that effect. There appears somewhat contradictory. How does one reconcile that?

Which brings me back to Baptismal regeneration, is there an implication here that my Baptismal regeneration means, in the end, nothing if I am not in communion with the Bishop of Rome?

Jon
The Catholic Church teaches that those who have been baptized in the Trinitarian formula (and believe in the triune Godhead) are in the family of Christ.

---

Those outside the Church are outside the family in the same sense that a divorced person has chosen to step outside of a family.

 

[JonNC]

=elvisman;7131154]In a sense, yes.
I say, “in a sense” because there may be a certain level of invincible ignorance that applies here. I don’t know if it does – only you and God do.

Thanks.

The thing about invincible ignorance is that it is not an excuse or alibi and shouldn’t be leaned on as such.

Nor would I do so. Nor am I lacking in confidence of my faith to feel that I cannot explore it, and that of my siblings in the Christ in the CC.

I would then ask you to provide Biblical or historical proof for your definition of “Church”.

I’d start with Eph. 1, and 4:5-6, but we probably won’t agree on that.

I would say that as knowledge increases, there is much more you need to reject - AND accept

For me, it has been much more on the accept side, but again, not because I think that my salvation hinges on what I believe about the CC, per se.

The Catholic Church teaches that those who have been baptized in the Trinitarian formula (and believe in the triune Godhead) are in the family of Christ.

Agreed.

Those outside the Church are outside the family in the same sense that a divorced person has chosen to step outside of a family.

One has to have been married to be divorced (i.e., part of the institutional Catholic Church - those in communoin with the Bishop of Rome). And I think this is why the Catholic Catechism says that folks like me cannot be said to have committed the sin of separation.

This is a very complex issue, to say the least.

Thanks, elvisman,
Jon

 

[Janet1983]

Those outside the Church are outside the family in the same sense that a divorced person has chosen to step outside of a family.

One has to have been married to be divorced (i.e., part of the institutional Catholic Church - those in communoin with the Bishop of Rome). And I think this is why the Catholic Catechism says that folks like me cannot be said to have committed the sin of separation.

So that means folks like me, I take it?

 

[PRmerger]

So that means folks like me, I take it?

We don’t presume to know, Janet, your eternal destination.

Strive to enter in.

 

[elvisman]

Thanks.
I’d start with Eph. 1, and 4:5-6, but we probably won’t agree on that.

You’re right, I wouldn’t agree. It is a partial definition but not a sufficient one.

One has to have been married to be divorced (i.e., part of the institutional Catholic Church - those in communoin with the Bishop of Rome). And I think this is why the Catholic Catechism says that folks like me cannot be said to have committed the sin of separation.

This is a very complex issue, to say the least.

Thanks, elvisman,
Jon

Thank you, Jon It’s always nice to talk to you.

**The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside it. But, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Christ or his Church - MAY achive salvation. **
Whereas, those who who reject the Church may not have technically divorced it as did the Reformers or ex-Catholics, they are still outside the Church (CCC 846, 847, 848).

 

[mangy_dog]

Because people find it hard to accept that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.

She is the sign spoken of in the Apocalypse.

And she is the woman spoken of in Genesis whose offspring will crush the head of the serpent.

Mary is the Theotokos who continues to bring Jesus to us and instructs us to " Do whatever He tells you".

Good people have a hard time accepting Mary’s importance in these latter days. But the forces of antichrist know who she is and they tremble.

 

[Janet1983]

We don’t presume to know, Janet, your eternal destination.

Strive to enter in.

Thank you very much.
I was just asking, because elvisman was hinting at ex-Catholics (and now even mentions ex-Catholics) one of which I am.

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you very much.
I was just asking, because elvisman was hinting at ex-Catholics (and now even mentions ex-Catholics) one of which I am.

God has not revealed the demographics for hell. He does not give us hell’s statistics. To his disciples’ questions (which your question re-presents) Jesus responded: Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough.

And earlier in the gospel he states:
-do you think they were more guilty than everyone else who lived in Jerusalem?

By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!

While I understand the question that is often asked by ex-Catholics “Where does the CC state I’m going to end up?”–I suppose it’s a valid curiosity–we as Catholics must always respond as Jesus did:

Strive to enter in.