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Cat_Herder
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No. It’s Scripture.
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 13:8[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 89:4[/BIBLEDRB]
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[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 13:8[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 89:4[/BIBLEDRB]
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Eve was not at enmity with satan.
Revelation is not in chronological order. You would have to ask God as to why.
Orthodox amillennial Christianity holds that the war is going on right now, and all around us.
However, let’s suppose that this chapter does refer to Mary. (I believe that this chapter refers to the Second Coming, not the first, by the way) How does it show that she was the result of an immaculate conception (specifically, unlike everybody else) and how does it show that she was sinless, or assumed into heaven?
For the IC you’ll have to go back to Luke and Genesis. But she is plainly depicted as being raptured to somewhere the devil can’t go.
If there is an apostasy then why are the Woman’s children besieged by the devil?
Adam and Eve were immaculately conceived as well. If they weren’t human then none of us are. And Enoch and Elijah didn’t die either.
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Roy5
Guest
Just curious. Do most posters here believe in the literal story of Adam and Eve? That seems to be suggested by those who tie Mary to Eve, who speak of original sin as inherited from Adam and Eve. etc.
Personally, I regard the story of Adam and Eve as a parable, if you will, not a falsehood but a story that provides us with important lessons. However, the belief among Catholics and Protestants - it seems - that the story of Adam and Eve is precise history strikes me as contrary to historical, archeological, anthropological and other evidence.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
They were real people in a real paradise who did something really bad after being deceived by the real devil.
Whether a fruit, a literal serpent, etc. were involved is up to the individual Christian.
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dianaiad
Guest
Well yeah, she was…he tricked her, got her thrown out of the garden–and she, along with her husband, were pretty repentant. How could she NOT be 'at enmity with Satan?" Or are you one of those people who figure that Eve is burning in everlasting hell, never repentant, never sorry, doing everything in her power to corrupt her children?
Obviously, since she raised Abel, that’s not quite true. She and Adam raised all their kids to love and serve God. How does that make her NOT 'at enmity" with Satan?
Actually, we need to ask John. However, my point still stands…what makes you think that this chapter refers to Mary? It’s certainly not obvious on the face of it.
OK…I’m not Orthodox. So I guess you will have to show me why that would be.
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dianaiad
Guest
I view the story as a model–perhaps not actual reality, but something that can be taken for reality and, because it is such a good analogy/parable, can be examined as if it were historical fact in order to make religious and philosophical points.
In other words, in discussing it as if it were an actual depiction of factual events, we come to an understanding of Truth in a way that a more amorphous examination of a longer process wouldn’t get us.
Besides, no matter by which method you believe that God created us, there WAS an Adam and an Eve from whom we all descend. If the story of the Garden is more metaphorical than fact, it’s still true.
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Roy5
Guest
One minor point that was raised by Kierkegaard, the Danish philosopher, has always intrigued me. If Adam and Eve didn’t yet have have the capacity to the know good and evil (they had been forbidden to eat from that tree) how did they even know, in their innocence, that eating the fruit was wrong?
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Oh, and among other problems. If God is merciful and just, as I believe God is, why would he burden all generations after Adam and Eve with original sin? In fact, I doubt that there is original sin. I do believe that we are born with a propensity to sin - part of our human nature. But I don't blame that on Adam and Eve - or on God. It makes life more of a challenge for all of us - and if we all lived perfect lives, how boring....
I've always been amused by the picture of God walking in the garden "in the cool of the day" calling to Adam "where art thou?" Sounds very anthropomorphic to me. Was God actually walking? If so, was that actually Christ walking? Did he not know where Adam was hiding, or was he just playing a game with him? How do our literalist friends - Catholic or Protestant - who accept everything in the Bible as 'gospel truth' handle such confusing matters? The Bible is full of them.
God bless folks of every creed, color and country. Let us work together to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.
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dianaiad
Guest
Oh, that is a VERY “Mormon” view, Roy.
LDS core doctrine, actually. (sorry…ducking…but it is!)Well, we (the Mormons…) believe that God DOES have a body of flesh and bone–partly because of those verses.
We have absolutely no problem at all with the thought of Him walking in the garden 'in the cool of the day."That would be nice.
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PRmerger
Guest
The premise above is incorrect.
Adam and Eve did not have the capacity to DETERMINE what’s good and evil.
Pope JPII addressed this in the magnificent encyclical Veritatis Splendor:
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PRmerger
Guest
No, I don’t believe it is.
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, then, good!
Your use of the word “defend” though was perplexing to me. If you weren’t “offended” then there was no need to use the word “defend”.
At any rate, I am glad you take no offense to the fact that I believe you left a faith you did not know.
Indeed.
No doubt.
Not bragging at all. I am certain that you are indeed widely read in matters Catholic; however, apologia is lacking and for you to say, “I know what the CC taught” is to be misleading.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
When you consider that Archaelogy and Geography correctly dates Sodom and Gomorrah and Exodus. Then the reality of Adam of Eve hits at a deeper level.
Adam and Eve were not born of sin, no sense of shame etc, good or evil. They were simply commanded by God “not” to eat of the Tree nor touch it or they would die. They disobeyed, their punishment was the fall from Grace not death. And what does Lucifer say at this point? …If you eat the fruit you will be as Gods and know Good and evil.
And God said… I will put emnity between thee[satan] and the woman [Mary] Satan shall eat dust all the days of his life {earth}. Then unto the woman he said,… sorrow in thy conception and: IN SORROW thy shall bring forth chidren. {Original SIn all are subjeted to today} God said;… Cursed is the ground for thy sake, in Sorrow thou shall eat of it, all the days of thy life. Dust to Dust! God said;… Behold, Man is become as one of us, to know Good and Evil…Original Sin repeated.
Now the next time God speaks, its Cain he’s speaking to and he said this… If thou does well, shall thou not be accepted? And if thou does not do well, Sin shall be at the door. And unto thee it shall be his desire, and it shall rule over him.
And that would be the teaching there…then today…NOW.
Lucifer existed already at this time. He found his was into Gods garden. So would it be any wonder he would find his way into Gods church? Which relates back to today and V-II. And what Benedict XVI said on March 13th 2010 about Fatima. Which related directly to Pope Leo XIII and the Vision of Christ and satan and the Miracle of the Sun which happened 33-years later to the day.
While the Pope put this together this way, I never associated them together. Actually I was shocked to hear what Benedict XVI said in this Homily. The entire Homily can be read also.
October 13, 1884 - Pope Leo XIII
On October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII was completing mass and as he walked away from the altar, he collapsed. When he awoke, he shared a vision. (The vision that Pope Leo XIII had became a reality 33 years to the day. It is known as the sun dancing in the heavens at Fatima in France.)
The actual vision that Pope Leo XIII had is as follows:
“I heard a noise in front of the Tabernacle. It was a confrontation between Jesus and Satan. Satan told Jesus if given time and power enough, he would destroy the church. Jesus asked in return, ‘How much time and how much power?’ Satan’s reply was one century and more influence over those who would follow him.” Pope Leo XIII said he heard Jesus say “So be it.” The 20th century was given to Satan as a time of testing.
Pope Leo XIII was deeply shaken by his experience and in response wrote the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, he gave the 20th Century to the Holy Spirit, and he wrote 13 encycles on the Rosary saying “The Rosary is the weapon that will defeat Satan.”
Pope Benedicts Homily on Thursday May 13th 2010 concluded with…May the seven years which separate us from the centenary of the apparitions hasten the fulfilment of the prophecy of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to the glory of the Most Holy Trinity.
Pretty much a reminder and conclusion to what Pope Leo had sadi 100 years earlier.
And the existance of mankind IS the battle of Godd and Evil.
Little perspective on Spirit of Reverence for Mary. Goddess no, definatly alive and well and convert Souls to the Holy Spirit though. Much love for us, doesn’t want to see us waste our Souls. Especially, especially those with NO Faith.
God Bless, Gary
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Cat_Herder
Guest
The Scripture does not say that the Woman was kinda-sorta at enmity with satan. It says that the Woman and Her Seed (whom we agree is Jesus) are at the same enmity with the devil. Jesus was at complete enmity with satan–hence the Woman must be as well.
Uh, yes it is.
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 12:5[/BIBLEDRB]
As an LDS you believe that during the pre-mortal existence, Lucifer presented a plan of salvation for humans to the Father. The Father rejected the plan and… you know what happened next. Now why is that referenced in the middle of the last book of the Bible? Shouldn’t it be in or before Genesis?
The devil is not a mortal enemy.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Diana,
this is an interesting take also;
Well, we (the Mormons…) believe that God DOES have a body of flesh and bone–partly because of those verses. We have absolutely no problem at all with the thought of Him walking in the garden 'in the cool of the day."
Anyway…
Were left to wonder about this, Through the Bible there are many who spoke to God. But not in the physical being sense. Though it would make perfect sense that there would some type of form which can be distinguished. And again the referrence would go to Genesis. In God creating man Adam in Gods likeness
What comes to mind here also though is the Giants in the Bible [Nephilim] and then in the Book of Enoch these same Giants which are also called Sons of God are 45ft tall. Same Giants two different teachings. Sons of God.
I believe, should we ever all get our acts together and search out all the information out here, through all religions, together. We would definatly have greater understanding. We are our own worst enemys.
There are a few scholars out here today, attempting to do just this. But its met with so much contempt. Egypt refuse’s to allow any more digs Christian related. Anything done is under the Ancient Egyptian masking. Then with much supervision. Israel is a bit more compliant but not much with ancient religion writings. Islam destroys anything related to Christianity and also which they find damaging to their faith, as the Story of the Cranes being removed from Quran in the 9th century. All this leaves us to fen for ourselfs?
We are often left with faith as the way. Which I have no problem with, its been my salvation for years. Yet as a Civil Society this leaves us to follow the present path. Without a doubt this would be different should would have this all religion knowledge. And I believe there much out here. And much in private collections.
God Bless, Gary
this is an interesting take also;
Well, we (the Mormons…) believe that God DOES have a body of flesh and bone–partly because of those verses. We have absolutely no problem at all with the thought of Him walking in the garden 'in the cool of the day."
Anyway…
Were left to wonder about this, Through the Bible there are many who spoke to God. But not in the physical being sense. Though it would make perfect sense that there would some type of form which can be distinguished. And again the referrence would go to Genesis. In God creating man Adam in Gods likeness
What comes to mind here also though is the Giants in the Bible [Nephilim] and then in the Book of Enoch these same Giants which are also called Sons of God are 45ft tall. Same Giants two different teachings. Sons of God.
I believe, should we ever all get our acts together and search out all the information out here, through all religions, together. We would definatly have greater understanding. We are our own worst enemys.
There are a few scholars out here today, attempting to do just this. But its met with so much contempt. Egypt refuse’s to allow any more digs Christian related. Anything done is under the Ancient Egyptian masking. Then with much supervision. Israel is a bit more compliant but not much with ancient religion writings. Islam destroys anything related to Christianity and also which they find damaging to their faith, as the Story of the Cranes being removed from Quran in the 9th century. All this leaves us to fen for ourselfs?
We are often left with faith as the way. Which I have no problem with, its been my salvation for years. Yet as a Civil Society this leaves us to follow the present path. Without a doubt this would be different should would have this all religion knowledge. And I believe there much out here. And much in private collections.
God Bless, Gary
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dianaiad
Guest
Cat Herder, I have a triple digit IQ–and none of those digits are ‘0.’ I have studied my own faith, as well as others, for many years. I have degrees in English. If it were obvious, don’t you think it would be obvious…to me? That’s not me bragging about my intelligence. It’s me telling you that the state of being ‘obvious’ means that everybody can ‘observe’ it. If someone comes along who doesn’t, or can’t, then ‘obvious’ is the wrong adjective.
When someone who has actually studied religion and the Bible–and has an average-to-above-average IQ doesn’t see it, then it definitely is NOT 'obvious."
To me, it is obvious that the only woman being referenced here is Eve.
That which is ‘obvious’ to you isn’t necessarily obvious to everybody–or anybody–else.
You do have a point–except of course the 'Rule the nations with an iron rod" might not fit.
However, that still doesn’t prove that the woman in Revelation is Mary. It doesn’t fit, frankly. It DOES fit the church as a whole, though.
Yes he is, both mortal and immortal enemy.
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Roy5
Guest
I know this thread is not devoted to Mormonism, but since a Mormon has been active here let me sum up a few reasons as to why I’m not LDS.
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First, I like the Mormons personally. Moral people. Family-oriented. Take care of one another. Industrious. Sacrifice for their religion. Etc. But -
1. The whole history as given in the Book of Mormon re Jared and his kinfolk and the eight barges, then the Nephites and Lamanites, taxes my most vivid imagination. And, more imrportant, the total lack of evidence to support this Not a single non-Mormon historian or archeologist takes all this seriously.
2. The teaching that Jesus came to the New World following the resurrection is interesting, but not a shred of evidence exists for that, either.
3. The translation of the 'gold plates' involves further confusion. Did Smith use the Urim and Thummin to translate the plates? Or, did Smith put a seer stone into a hat? Where did those gold plates go - and why?
4. Mormons speak of 'Reformed Egyptian; as the language of the plates. Nobody in the academic linguistic community knows of any such language.
5. There were many 'mistakes' in the first edition of the Book of Mormon, corrected in later editions. If God dictated and doublechecked each word, how could that happen? Scholars indicate that over 2800 changes were made, not counting gramatical errors.
6. 27.000 words in the Book of Mormon are precise verses found in the King James Version of the Bible - and translated into Elizabethan English over 200 years after Elizabeth.
7. The 'witnesses' listed in every Book of Mormon are in question. Several of them later left the church, One of the first three, Martin Harris, seems to have embraced as many as 13 different religions during his lifetime.
8. Smith appears to have been heavily influenced by a popular theory at the time, suggesting that the American Indians came from the lost ten tribes of Israel. Others wrote about that, and in the 1830 people in upstate New York were going around with 'peep-stones' looking for buried treasure.
9. The Book of Abraham, described by Smith as written by Abraham, was exposed as an ancient Egyptian funeral text.
10. Up until fairly recent times, Mormonism taught that Black people were cursed and they faced discrimination within the church. Brigham Young was quoted in the NY Herald as saying: "The Negro is damned and is to serve his Master till God chooses to remove that curse of Ham." The policy changed abruptly in 1978 after a 'revelation', probably brought on by pressure from missionaries in such places as Brazil, threats to boycott the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and athletic teams of Brigham Young university, etc.
11. A 'new revelation; contained in Doctrines and Covenants (#132) made polygamy permissible. How many wives did Smith have? Debatable. Figures range from 27 to 84! When Utah wanted to join the union another 'revelation' put an end to polygamy within the LDS in 1890. Of course, we read regularly about dissident Mormons who continue to be polygamous.
12. Mormons claim that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri and the New Jerusalem will also be in the USA.
We could go on and on, but a dozen is probably enough material off topic. Each point could also involve a longer presentation, not appropriate here. I hope I have given a fair presentation, though Mormons will surely correct me if I am wrong.
I live near a Mormon house of worship and have visited there several times. I have been impressed by family ties, lay leadership, young Mormon missionaries, and such. Once I went to a class for non-Mormons. A timeline was up on the wall. It began with 4000BC. Apparently that's when Mormons are taught humankind began - Adam and Eve. That is ignoring what obviously is true, that humankind goes back far, far earlier..
My basic trouble with Mormonism is a problem I also have with Catholicism, the religion of my paternal line. Both claim to be the one true religion. My own opinion is that God alone knows ultimate truth and I am content with that. I'm sure God forgives our feeble efforts to understand this mammoth. majestic and mysterious universe, but I doubt if he favors any one faith community.
Just how Mormons view Mary is not entirely clear to me. I probably should go back and reread some LDS postings on the subject.
But may God bless Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Easterm Orthodox, Jews, and people of all creeds, colors and countries.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
The Bible was not written in English. The only reason you accept a given English translation as authoritative is because the Quorum has told you that it is. Hence you have an all-in bet not on your own intelligence but on the Quorum’s authority. No, not their intelligence. Their authority.
Hence the issue is not your intelligence or mine. Or that of any Mormon. It is one of to whom we listen.
Plenty of Atheists have astronomical IQs and have studied religion and the Bible. They have their own “obvious” conclusions. That does not make those “obvious” conclusions correct.
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dianaiad
Guest
You are quite right. It is not. Isn’t it allowed for a Mormon to participate in a thread not devoted to Mormonism without having Mormonism attacked?
I had actually written a point by point response to this, then realized that doing so would simply be an encouragement of the off topic post. Roy, if you want to address this stuff in another thread, do that. There will be a few of us who can respond.
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dianaiad
Guest
What ‘Quorum’ are you talking about? True, we prefer the KJV, but we are all quite capable of, and do, use other translations frequently. A bunch of us can even read Greek and Hebrew, believe it or not.
…and you have just made my point. That which is ‘obvious’ to one is not obvious if it is not obvious to all.
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
Excellent point.
God moves some of us to “eureka” moments. And some of us ignore them.
I’ve heard a story of how an atheist was converted to a Believer just by being present at the birth of his child. Seeing that miracle was all it took.
And, then, there’s my priest’s brother who apparently saw his child’s birth and said, “Now THAT’S something I NEVER want to see again!”
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