Why the hostility toward Mary?

[Cat_Herder]

What ‘Quorum’ are you talking about? True, we prefer the KJV, but we are all quite capable of, and do, use other translations frequently. A bunch of us can even read Greek and Hebrew, believe it or not.
.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_of_the_Twelve_Apostles

 

[dianaiad]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_of_the_Twelve_Apostles

Very funny, Cat.

The thing is, while the church does have its own edition of the KJV (with our own footnotes and study guides) nobody has told us that we are restricted to it. As I mentioned, we have many biblical scholars who do research in the original langauges…what do you think we put IN all those footnotes?

As for me, I am quite happy to use most English language translations (don’t read any other language but Latin, and it’s rusty) because there really weren’t any bibles printed in Old English and Old French–or Middle English, either, for that matter.

Diana

 

[PRmerger]

I didn’t see it. Could you kindly re-iterate?

Also, you’ll have to explain how a sinless Christ can enter our sinful bodies at the Eucharist, if you propose that God MUST enter only into sinless creatures to remain sinless.

With my proposal (and I’m in good company with apologists Jimmy Akin and Patrick Madrid who’ve stated what I have: it was not required that Mary be sinless, but it was fitting), I don’t have any 'splaining to do as to how we can partake of the Eucharist without being Immaculately Conceived.

Now, to be sure, when we receive Him, it is FITTING that we be without sin, but it is not REQUIRED.

The Eucharist is another topic for another moment. We are speaking about Mary here. But since we have two threads going on with the exact same point of discusion. Then this need clarification here at this point also.

Does the Immaculate Conception mean that Mary’s parents didn’t have sex?
Some people think the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception means that Catholics are saying Mary’s mother was a virgin when she conceived Mary. That’s is a misconception of Catholic teaching. Mary’s parents, St. Joachim and St. Anne, conceived her in the usual way. There was nothing special about that. The Immaculate Conception simply means that through the merits of Jesus, Mary was preserved from original sin. I’ll try to unpack that a bit in this article.

One of the things I think we need to consider when thinking about the immaculate conception is: “Could God do it if he wanted to?” I think anyone would say “God can do anything.” So I think the question remains “why would God conceive Mary without sin?” Perhaps we could say the same thing about why God would want the Ark of the Old Covenant to be pure.

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant
I was in Israel last year and I stayed with an Orthodox Jewish family. You should hear the way they talk about the Ark of the Covenant. They sound just like Catholics talking about Mary. To understand how Catholics treat Mary, look at the way the Israelites honour the Ark of the Old Covenant. The Israelites did not worship the Ark but they treated it with incredible reverence.

They are still looking all over Israel for the Ark, but the Ark of the Old Covenant will never be found again, because the Ark of the New Covenant has been found. The Ark of the Old Covenant was built immaculately. It was perfect, as much as it could be under the Old Covenant. If God would be this specific about the purity of the vessel that would carry the Word of God made “stone” (Ex 25:10) we think He would require purity of the Ark of the New Covenant, that would carry the Word of God made “flesh” (Rev 11:19)

Why do we believe Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant in Rev 11:18-12:17?
The Ark of the Old Covenant carried the Word of God made stone while the Ark of the New Covenant carried the Word of God mad flesh when Mary was pregnant with Jesus.
The old Ark of the Covenant disappears in Jer 3:16. The new Ark of the Covenant resurfaces in Revelation 11:19 as the woman with 12 stars around her head.
The Ark of the Covenant has been restored to the temple, which is now heaven (See also Heb 9:1-12)
A woman with a crown is there - the new Ark
The woman in Revelation bore the King of the Israelites (Jesus) - who will rule the nations and is at God’s throne
The devil is very interested in destroying her but she is safe
Her children are all faithful Christians who “follow the lamb” (Rev 12:17)
The Israelites knew God used the Ark powerfully and they brought it into battle (Jos. 6:3-4). The Ark of the New Covenant, Mary, is introduced into the heavenly battle against Satan (Rev 11:19)
If Jesus is the Word made flesh, then we could consider Mary as the Ark made flesh.
Both the old Ark and the new Ark gain their merits because of the “Word of God” made stone in the Old Covenant and made flesh in the New Covenant.

As I also mention this point of contention was give in even with Martin Luther. The Immaculate Conception.

As far as who your speaking of of here? Please post the links of “their” teaching to veryify your words. I’d love to read this.

Gary, you’ll have to explain to me how any of the above answers the question of how a sinless Mary could enter into her sinful mother’s womb…if you don’t believe it’s possible for a sinless Jesus to enter into a sinful mother’s womb.

(NB: Of course Mary was sinless. I’m just trying to get Gary to understand that if he says it was a requirement for Mary to be sinless so Jesus could enter, then it ought to be a requirement for Mary’s mother to be sinless, and her mother’s mother, and her mother’s mother…and now Gary’s got himself into a pickle!)

 

[PRmerger]

As far as who your speaking of of here? Please post the links of “their” teaching to veryify your words. I’d love to read this.

Patrick Madrid: CD–The Truth about Mary

Jimmy Akin: : he stated that it’s fitting, but not required, for Mary to be immaculate on the Catholic Answers Live show, in a call made by yours truly. You’ll just have to take my word for it.

 

[PRmerger]

BTW you being in a state of SIn and receiving the Eucharist is OK with you?

No.

This is a statement I would seriously research. So your now claiming you can be in a state of sin and receive Communion?

Research this my friend or maybe its me misunderstanding what your saying?

The latter.

Please re-read my post.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have for a while now, ever since I found her chapel in a Catholic Cathedral in the city I now live. I began visiting often and just sitting there, then I started to you know talk to her like I would to my mum… “It was the ArchAngels who introduced me to Mary”…

Facinating story. Sorry I missed the post earlier.

 

[Ashurie]

Facinating story. Sorry I missed the post earlier.

LOL No problem, I have to say that it was Archangels, in particular Archangel Raphael - the first I made “contact with” - was the one who started of my spiritual journey.

 

[GaryTaylor]

LOL No problem, I have to say that it was Archangels, in particular Archangel Raphael - the first I made “contact with” - was the one who started of my spiritual journey.

I’ve heard many with similar situations. Does this type of experience happen often with you? Once in a life time thing? Has it rooted you in Christianity now? I notice you tag states “spirtual”. So would I be wrong to assume you have other paramormal interests?

Lot of questions eh? If you feel uncomforable talking about this, I could understand.

 

[Ashurie]

I’ve heard many with similar situations. Does this type of experience happen often with you? Once in a life time thing? Has it rooted you in Christianity now? I notice you tag states “spirtual”. So would I be wrong to assume you have other paramormal interests?

Lot of questions eh? If you feel uncomforable talking about this, I could understand.

I have no problem in talking about this, as long as the person I am talking to is open minded - which I get the feeling you are . I just do not want others to put me down saying that what I believe is untrue, and their’s is - because I am not here for that, I am a open minded person who accepts all types of believes.

In what I believe, it is important to keep a connection with the heavenly beings…the Angels have been a wonderful help to me in the past year. Archangel Uriel is currently being my celestial “tutor” during my studies at University, and he has helped me out of a very horrible financial situation. I keep up regular contact with the Archangels, and they have essentially have become my friends.

My belief doesn’t have a official title, but we believe in “Ascended Masters” who are in fact other deities from past and present religions, as well as Saints and influential Religious figures - all in which we hold a great respect to.

To us it is GOD who is the supreme being, the supreme creator, and Jesus is his son, with Mary as the mother.

Call me pagan if you must It doesn’t bother me, as long as my beliefs are respected.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Patrick Madrid: CD–The Truth about Mary

Jimmy Akin: : he stated that it’s fitting, but not required, for Mary to be immaculate on the Catholic Answers Live show, in a call made by yours truly. You’ll just have to take my word for it.

Oh I believe you think you heard it. But thats in total contrast to Catholic Church teaching. The Popes speak for the Catholic Church, And in the history of World none will ever change this…

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pope Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”

Here the Pope was speaking “ex Cathedra” BTW my friend do you know how many thats happened? Last time was 140 years ago. That will never ever change. Thats infallible, God is speaking through him.

So what do you believe?

God Bless, Gary

 

[dianaiad]

Oh I believe you think you heard it. But thats in total contrast to Catholic Church teaching. The Popes speak for the Catholic Church, And in the history of World none will ever change this…

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pope Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”

Here the Pope was speaking “ex Cathedra” BTW my friend do you know how many thats happened? Last time was 140 years ago. That will never ever change. Thats infallible, God is speaking through him.

So what do you believe?

God Bless, Gary

Gary, you may be laboring under a misaprehension. No Catholic (and not even me, though I agree for an entirely different reason…) claims that Mary was NOT 'immaculately conceived." The question is whether she HAD to be in order for Jesus to be Who HE was/is.

I think that God could have managed that just fine without that. Again, I can’t speak to Catholic belief about this, since I believe that all men and women are ‘immaculately concieved,’ that is, born without the taint of ‘original sin.’ In that way, then, Mary is no different from the rest of us.

However, Catholics beleive that Mary was one of the very few people (if there was more than one, aside from her Son, that is) who was so born, and thus special because of it. I think the point is that God did this because He wanted to–because He may have wanted to give Mary something special, but not because He HAD to in order for Christ to be born of her.

As I said before, Jesus Christ is Who HE is because He is Who He is, not because His mother was immaculately concieved, or lived sinless, or assumed bodily into heaven, or whatever beliefs seem to have become attached to her. He would be Who He is if His mother were…me.

Or LJ, or Janet, or any of the women who post here—or indeed any woman at all. That He was born to Mary was HER great blessing, not a requirement for Him to be Who He is.

Or to put it another way, He was born to Mary because she was worthy of Him, not because He required her.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh I believe you think you heard it. But thats in total contrast to Catholic Church teaching. The Popes speak for the Catholic Church, And in the history of World none will ever change this…

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pope Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”

Here the Pope was speaking “ex Cathedra” BTW my friend do you know how many thats happened? Last time was 140 years ago. That will never ever change. Thats infallible, God is speaking through him.

I think, after reading this post, that you are confusing me with someone else.

I am a Catholic.

I believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, as taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Gary, you may be laboring under a misaprehension. No Catholic (and not even me, though I agree for an entirely different reason…) claims that Mary was NOT 'immaculately conceived." The question is whether she HAD to be in order for Jesus to be Who HE was/is.

Exactly.

Gary says “Yes” because he has no other explanation of how “God was Born into SIn without Sin”.

If this is his position,** then he has to explain how Mary was born into sin in her mother, without sin. ** As of yet, he has not provided such an explanation.

(This is a valid question posed to Catholics by non-Catholic Christians who question why Mary “had” to be without sin)

However, the answer, as posited by Catholic apologists and me is: it was not a requirement, but rather it was FITTING.

I think that God could have managed that just fine without that.

'zactly!

However, Catholics beleive that Mary was one of the very few people (if there was more than one, aside from her Son, that is) who was so born, and thus special because of it. I think the point is that God did this because He wanted to–because He may have wanted to give Mary something special, but not because He HAD to in order for Christ to be born of her.

As I said before, Jesus Christ is Who HE is because He is Who He is, not because His mother was immaculately concieved, or lived sinless, or assumed bodily into heaven, or whatever beliefs seem to have become attached to her. He would be Who He is if His mother were…me.

Of course.

But it’s a fitting tabernacle for the Divine to be in an immaculate vessel, is it not?

That He was born to Mary was HER great blessing, not a requirement for Him to be Who He is.

Or to put it another way, He was born to Mary because she was worthy of Him, not because He required her.

Yup.

 

[PRmerger]

I have no problem in talking about this, as long as the person I am talking to is open minded - which I get the feeling you are . I just do not want others to put me down saying that what I believe is untrue, and their’s is - because I am not here for that, I am a open minded person who accepts all types of believes.

Forgive my skepticism, Ashurie, but I doubt that you accept “all types” of beliefs.

Do you accept the belief that women are inferior to men?

 

[Ashurie]

Forgive my skepticism, Ashurie, but I doubt that you accept “all types” of beliefs.

Do you accept the belief that women are inferior to men?

Well then I should have said faiths, but not all “religious beliefs” belong to official faiths. I am a very open minded person, and believe we are all one, and we all essentially believe in the supreme creator God.

Now since you brought that up, I am a Anthropology student, and all beliefs and faiths come from the cultural background of the individual. In Hinduism, women are traditionally “inferior” to men due to Hindu ideology, which women actually accept it…why? because that is their faith and belief.

I am not here for that since I am not going around questioning everyone else’s faith, so I ask you not to do the same to me…it isn’t polite. I was simply answering a question to someone who was interested in my own faith.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have no problem in talking about this, as long as the person I am talking to is open minded - which I get the feeling you are . I just do not want others to put me down saying that what I believe is untrue, and their’s is - because I am not here for that, I am a open minded person who accepts all types of believes.

In what I believe, it is important to keep a connection with the heavenly beings…the Angels have been a wonderful help to me in the past year. Archangel Uriel is currently being my celestial “tutor” during my studies at University, and he has helped me out of a very horrible financial situation. I keep up regular contact with the Archangels, and they have essentially have become my friends.

My belief doesn’t have a official title, but we believe in “Ascended Masters” who are in fact other deities from past and present religions, as well as Saints and influential Religious figures - all in which we hold a great respect to.

To us it is GOD who is the supreme being, the supreme creator, and Jesus is his son, with Mary as the mother.

Call me pagan if you must It doesn’t bother me, as long as my beliefs are respected.

You can’t miss God with the Rosary, its impossible. I feel you, I know your a good person. I’ve heard about the Acended Masters also. Though I haven’t looked into it.

I was born into this faith with many generations on both sides of my family. So in my case its was just a matter of staying on the path. Which I assue you I was very resistant to though I never denied the Trinity or Holy familys reality or authority. To me thats fools play and seriously dangerous. There’s no instant gradification in I’m sorrys, it penance and atonement. No comfort in any of that. And if you get it to messed up, well I wouldn’t even want to go there. Theres other realities which most don’t see, but some do. Though I believe in most case’s its themselves which are the block. Saying I believe in God dosen’t make it so. You have to really truly know he is there. And he most definatly is. Christ once said… As “you” believe, so it will be. And I most definatly believe that. Be carefull though lots of evil activity. Stay on Gods path.

 

[Ashurie]

You can’t miss God with the Rosary, its impossible. I feel you, I know your a good person. I’ve heard about the Acended Masters also. Though I haven’t looked into it.

I was born into this faith with many generations on both sides of my family. So in my case its was just a matter of staying on the path. Which I assue you I was very resistant to though I never denied the Trinity or Holy familys reality or authority. To me thats fools play and seriously dangerous. There’s no instant gradification in I’m sorrys, it penance and atonement. No comfort in any of that. And if you get it to messed up, well I wouldn’t even want to go there. Theres other realities which most don’t see, but some do. Though I believe in most case’s its themselves which are the block. Saying I believe in God dosen’t make it so. You have to really truly know he is there. And he most definatly is. Christ once said… As “you” believe, so it will be. And I most definatly believe that. Be carefull though lots of evil activity. Stay on Gods path.

I have a Rosary necklace and a pendant of the Mary It makes me feel loved and reminds me that despite being a state away from my biological mother, there is a spiritual mother not far from me to talk to.

I am actually christened under the Anglican faith, my mother too, but she has since a younger woman has lost faith in God, so I haven’t had a religious up bringing. So with that I have had to discover my own relationship with God by myself…and because of that I have already had traditional Catholics question and tell me my beliefs are wrong. Regardless of that I just remind them, we are all God’s children in the end regardless of what we believe. I am also very open minded…and my studies in Anthropology has enhanced that as well, to accept others believe and to discount them as “wrong”. As for evil activity, I am very much aware of the works of the devil…I can “sense” spirits and differentiate from good and bad. When ever I sense any spirit, I always call upon Archangel Michael.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I think, after reading this post, that you are confusing me with someone else.

I am a Catholic.

I believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, as taught by the Catholic Church.

Well I think after reading post 392 its clear what you believe. Or were you just shooting marbles there?

And you were trying to impress upon me just what about that phone you made with the Catholic Answers? Maybe I am missing something?

 

[PRmerger]

Well I think after reading post 392 its clear what you believe. Or were you just shooting marbles there?

And you were trying to impress upon me just what about that phone you made with the Catholic Answers? Maybe I am missing something?

I am trying to tell you that it’s a poor argument to say that Mary HAD to be sinless in order to be Jesus’ mother. Rather, it was FITTING. Not required, but apt.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

If you continue to insist that Mary HAD to be sinless, because God could not enter into something sinful, then you’re going to have to believe that Mary’s mother was sinless also. And her mother; and her mother, and…

 

[PRmerger]

Well then I should have said faiths, but not all “religious beliefs” belong to official faiths. I am a very open minded person, and believe we are all one, and we all essentially believe in the supreme creator God.

Are you open-minded to the thought that there are many gods?

Now since you brought that up, I am a Anthropology student, and all beliefs and faiths come from the cultural background of the individual. In Hinduism, women are traditionally “inferior” to men due to Hindu ideology, which women actually accept it…why? because that is their faith and belief.

And you’re ok with that? If you have a daughter are you going to tell her that it’s ok that some people find her inferior–and that this is their truth and to them, she really is inferior and we cannot judge that belief?

I am not here for that since I am not going around questioning everyone else’s faith, so I ask you not to do the same to me…it isn’t polite. I was simply answering a question to someone who was interested in my own faith.

I *am *interested in your faith, Ashurie. That’s why I’m asking you what you believe.

Now, the fact that I believe your theology is a bit disjointed is my right, is it not?

But I am always polite in asking questions and dialoguing with others about their beliefs.