Why the hostility toward Mary?

[dianaiad]

Logical, insightful and well-written.
:clapping:

…and not, quite, accurate as to the Mormon beliefs.

or about the bit about restricting Christianity only to Trinitarians.

or about presenting the idea that Jews, Muslims and Christians believe in three very different gods, when they are all the One God of Abraham.

Or about the fact that Muslims do indeed believe that Jesus was the Messiah–of the Jews, not just a prophet. They also believe that he was born of a virgin, and that he will return near the ‘day of judgment’ and, with the Imam Mahdi, defeat the 'false Messiah."

or leaving out the fact that Hindus, while they do believe in a multitude of gods, believe also that they are actually aspects of one God, Brahman, who is both the entire universe, and who transcends it; both creator of it and part of it.

Other than that, of course, she has it pretty much nailed.

 

[dianaiad]

To be human, Mary had to have human parents. But the inclination to sin and the effects of sin are based on the state of the soul.

Mary’s sinless state is a work of God, not man.

And Christ had to have a sinless mother or else she would have to deal with the distractions and diversions of sin…she would not understand Him or guide Him in faith in his likewise sinless state. She would have missives…being some place else even if she were in the same room with Him.

There again is the other issue of having a single purpose in life. I think Mary’s sole purpose in life was to become the Mother of God, and for Christ to change time, to break the power of death by sin, to come as the savior and messiah for all mankind is enough work for Blessed Mother.

I think we are living in a culture that just can’t believe how anyone can get through this life without having sex.

(musing)

I don’t think it’s a matter of thinking that we can’t get through life without having sex. It’s this idea that I, at least, see that sex is considered to be a bad thing, and one that it is good to not have. To me, then, the shoe is on the other foot…the obsession with sex isn’t with those of us who think that Mary could have been fully a wife to Joseph; it’s with those who believe that those who devote their lives to the service of God MUST abstain from sex and from relationships with spouses, as if that aspect of married life is tainted and evil; as if engaging in it with one’s legal spouse is as great a sin as if it were done outside marriage bonds.

I can’t wrap my mind around that. It’s a paradigm shift that leaves me behind every time. So I keep asking…why is it better to live without sex than to be with one’s spouse, obeying the commandment to love him or her, to ‘be fruitful,’ and to 'love one another?"

I think sex is a gift from God; the purpose of it, the pleasure, the communication one has with one’s spouse is a gift from God. We are SUPPOSED to engage in it–and reserve it for our spouses so that it can remain as it is, a gift from God used for its intended purpose.

As for ‘living without sex.’ Hey. I’ve been a widow for sixteen years. I manage just fine, thank you–it’s not about sex in general. It’s about sex as it was intended for us, by God, to use appropriately.

 

[freerf]

Well I think after reading post 392 its clear what you believe. Or were you just shooting marbles there?

And you were trying to impress upon me just what about that phone you made with the Catholic Answers? Maybe I am missing something?

Gary, I think you are missing something. PR Merger is honestly addressing the root question, not merely throwing around dogma. He is basically saying the Catholic Faith is Truth, but you cannot justify certain aspects via this or that method, which is what you were trying to do.

 

[freerf]

Oh I believe you think you heard it. But thats in total contrast to Catholic Church teaching. The Popes speak for the Catholic Church, And in the history of World none will ever change this…

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pope Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”

Here the Pope was speaking “ex Cathedra” BTW my friend do you know how many thats happened? Last time was 140 years ago. That will never ever change. Thats infallible, God is speaking through him.

So what do you believe?

God Bless, Gary

Gary, you’re preaching to the choir about hair-splitting and missing a more important dialogue.

 

[PRmerger]

Note…

Is it common practice on this forum to go into ones posts, quote them and then alter their sentences?

I do believe its against forum rules here. Its in bad taste and should be stopped immediately. Please refrain from doing this on my posts. I can’t see this on any forum, never mind a religious forum. Specifically the Catholic.

It certainly gives the wrong impression and shows one in different light than intended. Its a poor act of deception and terrible practice. It invalidates the original thoughts through re-direction to altered points.

God Bless, Gary

To whom are you addressing, Gary?

I suspect this post is directed at me, but if you could be so kind as to provide specifics.

Thank you.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I don’t think it’s a matter of thinking that we can’t get through life without having sex. It’s this idea that I, at least, see that sex is considered to be a bad thing, and one that it is good to not have. To me, then, the shoe is on the other foot…the obsession with sex isn’t with those of us who think that Mary could have been fully a wife to Joseph; it’s with those who believe that those who devote their lives to the service of God MUST abstain from sex and from relationships with spouses, as if that aspect of married life is tainted and evil; as if engaging in it with one’s legal spouse is as great a sin as if it were done outside marriage bonds.

[bibledrb]Mt 19:12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 7:8[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 7:32-35[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

I am curious…why would someone attack the Virgin Mary?

Because they love Jesus so much that they feel any talk of someone other than Christ detracts from his glory.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Stop the bickering and remain on topic

 

[PRmerger]

It’s not a useless supposition…it really goes to the heart of the matter. Did Mary have a choice, or not? The scriptures stated that she agreed–but was that required? Did God force/create her without a say in the matter?

OF COURSE Mary had a choice.

If Mary did not, or could not, have said ‘no’ in a very real choice, then the honor being paid to her is as a appropriate as the honor paid to a puppet put on a shelf at the end of a show.

Where in the CC’s teaching is this concept that Mary could not have said “no”? She had free will, ever present in her decisions.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s this idea that I, at least, see that sex is considered to be a bad thing, and one that it is good to not have.

Sex is considered HOLY, in the right context of course, in the CC.

And, it can be good of course to not have it. That only elevates it, IMHO, when one considers celibacy as giving up this good.

 

[beth40n2]

Satan must be smiling (that is, if he is able) that there is so much division among the brothers and sisters. We are one body, with Jesus Christ as the Head as Father Corapi explained last evening. Let’s put aside the “pride and arrogance” aside (we know where that comes from anyway) and search for what brings us together.

To get back to the original question…why the hostility toward Mary…most likely because of the misunderstandings of many. My husband, an evangelical, was raised believing that all Catholics “adore” rather than “honor” Mary. Mary is our mother and shows us the way to her Son. To quote Father Corapi, “if Mary was good enough for Jesus, she is good enough for me as well”. By the way, many non-catholics are not aware that Martin Luther had a very close relationship with the Blessed Mother, but somehow that never comes up.

Thank you Julie for bringing us back to the subject.

When I was Pentecostal for 8 years, you never heard much about Mary except at Christmas. Then I married a United Methodist and was in that church for 16 years before becoming a Catholic 6 years ago. Same thing in the Methodist Church, the only mention of Mary was at Advent and Christmas. So with all the misconceptions that we worship her and put too much emphasis on her comes the hostility.

We as Catholics need to know our faith and be will to share at the appropriate time what we know and believe about Mary and all aspects of our faith. When we explain things like God chose Mary and he had her carry Jesus in her womb for 9 months. She had to have been pure to carry the son of God who was without sin. Make them think. There is so much about Mary that a protestant has never heard of.

 

[dianaiad]

OF COURSE Mary had a choice.

Where in the CC’s teaching is this concept that Mary could not have said “no”? She had free will, ever present in her decisions.

I don’t see anything in there about that, PRmerger–I was responding to Gary.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t see anything in there about that, PRmerger–I was responding to Gary.

Huh? Do you mean you were responding to Reuben?

At any rate, I don’t understand your perplexity with a sinless woman not being able to say YES to God?

 

[Ashurie]

Why can’t we? Please elaborate on this, Ashurie.

*Why is it *that we can’t judge a belief as right or wrong? Who says that we can’t do this? And why?

People do this regardless, without even thinking - it’s human nature. Idealistically and in a Anthropological perspective, it is always best not to judge others before getting a understanding of why the do something. That is something I am - as a Anthropology student, is always reminded, to stay way from stereotype thinking etc.

Sad, yes, that this is a reality. But that’s a nonsequitor.

The question is: Is it true that women are inferior to men?

As a female I would say no, but I can not deny that some men do continue to think it is true though.

What happened last May?

I am gonna try to answer it without putting my life story on here, lol.
First of had a nightmare, that disturbed me greatly - it was the third time I had it in a number of years. Between May - September, my relationship with my mum started to get very rocky - we argued a lot. Especially, in September, as I decided to quit my job to move interstate. Thing we getting rocky at work too…which was the cause of me quitting.

It might not seem much but to me it was.

 

[PRmerger]

People do this regardless, without even thinking - it’s human nature.

I think it’s the opposite, don’t you? People, without thinking, do judge.

Yet you’re saying you’re not supposed to judge.

I’d like to know who says we’re not supposed to judge. And why can’t we?

I certainly am judging that the belief “Women are inferior to men” is wrong.

But I’d like to know who is telling me that I can’t judge this belief, and by what authority they speak!

 

[PRmerger]

As a female I would say no, but I can not deny that some men do continue to think it is true though.

Yes, some men do think it’s true.

And if your son believes this, you won’t correct him?

I am gonna try to answer it without putting my life story on here, lol.
First of had a nightmare, that disturbed me greatly - it was the third time I had it in a number of years. Between May - September, my relationship with my mum started to get very rocky - we argued a lot. Especially, in September, as I decided to quit my job to move interstate. Thing we getting rocky at work too…which was the cause of me quitting.

It might not seem much but to me it was.

Of course I understand that you cannot explain all in this type of setting. I understand that it was a life-changing experience for you.

Seek and you shall find, Ashurie! That is a truth that comes from God!

 

[Ashurie]

I think it’s the opposite, don’t you? People, without thinking, do judge.

Yet you’re saying you’re not supposed to judge.

I’d like to know who says we’re not supposed to judge. And why can’t we?

I certainly am judging that the belief “Women are inferior to men” is wrong.

But I’d like to know who is telling me that I can’t judge this belief, and by what authority they speak!

Judge if you must~!

I am actually curious now if you actually now what Anthropology is! If you think it is a religion you sadly mistaken, it is a Social Science, were one studies another culture. So to study another culture without going “oh that is wrong” or going “that’s not barbaric” you need to “forget” you own value during the study of that culture and not be judgmental.

 

[PRmerger]

Judge if you must~!

But you haven’t answered the question I posed.

Who has told you that you can’t judge?

I am actually curious now if you actually now what Anthropology is! If you think it is a religion you sadly mistaken, it is a Social Science, were one studies another culture.

Yes, I know what anthropology is. I know it is not a religion.

So to study another culture without going “oh that is wrong” or going “that’s not barbaric” you need to “forget” you own value during the study of that culture and not be judgmental.

Who says this? And by what authority?

I read about female genital mutilation and most definitely say, “This is wrong! And barbaric!”

 

[Ashurie]

But you haven’t answered the question I posed.

Who has told you that you can’t judge?

Who says this? And by what authority?

I read about female genital mutilation and most definitely say, “This is wrong! And barbaric!”

Anthropology Teachers…the founding Anthropologists! I have been taught it by my lecturer…as well as from the text we are getting it from. We are taught it as an Anthropological ethic…

I have also read about mutilation, about polygamy of the Mormons and the people of Nepal…sure one would judge without knowing or learning about the reasons why. Which why there are Anthropologist’s, they are around in attempt to teach people why others do things that “Westerners” would deem “improper”.

Sorry for having a different mind set to you and not being judgmental, but that is what I am taught, and believe…especially when I have a open mind and is open others religions and practices without putting them down.

/end of argument. This is just going in circles…

The hostility towards Mary in essence is a systematic denial of God. It goes something like this.

Deny each and every point of Christology right up to denial of God himself.

Here on this thread its a much of different story. Really we have debating “mostly” the Immaculate Conception.

But what happened, happened…it is so sad I think. Mary should be seen as a mother for everyone who believes, regardless what happened, she is still the mother of Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

Anthropology Teachers…the founding Anthropologists! I have been taught it by my lecturer…as well as from the text we are getting it from. We are taught it as an Anthropological ethic…

With all due respect, what authority do anthropology teachers have in the area of spirituality? Or in morality?

And, even if their authority is in anthropological matters, what gives them any authority in this area?

You sound young Ashurie, and I don’t want you to make the grave mistake of falling for any belief just because someone told you it’s true.

Do not judge any beliefs?

Ask yourself this: why not?

end of argument. This is just going in circles…

If you cannot entertain these questions, Ashurie, then you are not as open-minded as you claim. An educated, open-minded seeker will be willing to pursue the truth, even if it discomfits her.