Why the hostility toward Mary?

[GaryTaylor]

I was under the impression that Christ was a Jewish/Levite. Not to mention that it wouldn’t make a difference from Paul in Galatians.

Anyway another topic for another moment.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I was under the impression that Christ was a Jewish/Levite. Not to mention that it wouldn’t make a difference from Paul in Galatians.

Anyway another topic for another moment.

Dont forget to read the “Tongue in cheek” bit above that particular post.

 

[Janet1983]

General rule: humans are conceived with original sin.

Exception:

Genesis 3:15 NRSV
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
***and between your offspring and hers;
he will strike your head,
***and you will strike his heel.’

How does that short that we are dealing with an exception here?

Because both the woman and Her Seed are supposed to be at enmity with the devil.

I am at enmity with the devil. You are at enmity with the devil… If we weren’t we’d be serving him.

He keeps His promises and the Immaculate Conception was one of them.

What promise? I don’t see that. It’s still limiting God’s power.

Yes but not protecting Mary would breach the promise.

No, really. What promise? If He was capable of protecting Mary from sin, wouldn’t He have been capable to protect Jesus?

No. God made no such promise with regard to their enmity with the devil. David was holy but also a notorious backslider.

David was a man after God’s own heart… but how does any of what you said answer this?
“Wouldn’t then Mary’s parents have to be sinless too, in order for her to be sinless? Wouldn’t her grandparents have to be sinless just as well as her parents would have been sinless? Wouldn’t every generation before that have to be sinless including David?”

You are not as smart as God is and neither am I.

Agreed. But this reasoning still doesn’t make any sense to me.

Problem: Mary is not God. I think the overarching problem here is that you think sinless humans are gods. Adam and Eve were not gods. Enoch and Elijah and even Moses may have been almost sinless (like Mary, they were raptured) but they were not gods.

I don’t think humans are gods. What makes you think I did?
Sinless humans however can be the perfect sacrifice, the unblemished lamb, the fulfillment of the Law (through their sinlessness).
If somebody would truly be sinless he would go to heaven by his own strength. As nobody but Christ ever was, it is Him who is the only one who could have ever done this.
Had Mary been unspotted, she could have been a perfect sacrifice herself.

 

[Janet1983]

Not to mention–where in the bible does it affirm your POV–that *any *sinless creature could have provided atonement for the sins of humanity?

Well it had to be Christ, because none other was truly sinless.

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 9:11-14[/BIBLEDRB]

If Mary had been spotless… same difference I’d say.

 

[PRmerger]

Well it had to be Christ, because none other was truly sinless.

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 9:11-14[/BIBLEDRB]

If Mary had been spotless… same difference I’d say.

So what is your point again, Janet?

Is it this: IF Mary had been sinless, she could have been the atonement for our sins?

If that’s your point, then you need to provide a verse that says “it is the sinless-ness of the sacrificial victim that will make atonement for our sins.”

 

[Cat_Herder]

I am at enmity with the devil. You are at enmity with the devil… If we weren’t we’d be serving him.

Our enmity with the devil is not complete. That of the Woman’s Seed aka Jesus Christ was. The problem you cannot surmount is that the Scripture applies the same enmity to the Woman.

What promise? I don’t see that. It’s still limiting God’s power.

By your logic God could not promise not to flood the earth again because that would limit His power. Or promise that those who are in Christ will not be condemned…

No, really. What promise? If He was capable of protecting Mary from sin, wouldn’t He have been capable to protect Jesus?

It is not a question of whether God is almighty but rather whether He is trustworthy.

I don’t think humans are gods. What makes you think I did?

You suggested Mary could have died for our sins.

Sinless humans however can be the perfect sacrifice, the unblemished lamb, the fulfillment of the Law (through their sinlessness).

False.

If somebody would truly be sinless he would go to heaven by his own strength

.

Mary did not do so. She was assumed or raptured just like Enoch or Elijah. Both words mean to be pulled up, not to ascend under your own power. Only God can do that.

As nobody but Christ ever was, it is Him who is the only one who could have ever done this.
Had Mary been unspotted, she could have been a perfect sacrifice herself.

The road you are on leads to the denial of the divinity of Christ.

 

[Born_Warrior]

Glad you asked…

Well the definition of Christian is “Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.” Therefore, since Mary, Joseph, and the apostles all followed the teachings of Christ (Or in the case of Mary and Joseph lived exclusively for Christ) then they are by definition Christian. The Bible repeatedly affirms that they sought to follow Christ in all things, correct? So they were Christian.

Oh, and since Paul repeatedly affirms that the old Jewish laws are no longer important, there is even stronger evidence that they were not Jewish.

Your turn.

FSC

The term Christian is used three times in the New Testament, and it is never used by Jesus in reference to his followers, nor is the term used amongst his followers.

The term Christian is not even used among the disciples of Jesus, to describe one another. The only place it is used is in Acts 11:26, 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16.

"…and when he had found him (Saul), he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." (Acts 11:26)

This verse makes it clear that “the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch”. What is also clear is that the term “Christian” was not used among the disciples, but rather it was used about them from those who were not disciples.

*“Agrippa replied to Paul, ‘In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian.’” * (Acts 26:28)

Here, the term was used by King Agrippa, who was examining Paul in a legal sense. Again, it was not used by the disciples in reference to other disciples. It is also unclear as to the tone of Agrippa’s words here. They could easily have been in the form of a sarcastic or derogatory question, which would make the term “Christian” a term of derision used by the world towards those claiming to follow the Light.

*"…but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name." *(1 Peter 4:16)

Here in 1 Peter 4:16, Peter is saying if you to suffer and people label you with the term “Christian” in association with this suffering, then suffer the derision gracefully. e’. What is clear is that the term “christian” is used by non-disciples in their persecutions against the disciples.

As far as Jesus being a Jew, the bible does mention it a few times:

Very early in the morning, the leading priests, the older Jewish leaders, the teachers of the law, and all the Jewish council decided what to do with Jesus. They tied Jesus and led him to Pilate, the governor. They gave Jesus to Pilate. Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” Jesus answered, "Yes, that is right. Mark 15:1-2

*Jesus Christ will be the King of the Jews as He plainly answered in a specific question, but will His Kingship extend over all of humanity i.e. will He be the “King of kings and Lord of lords” of all the earth?*Revelation 19:16

In 2 Samuel 7.12-13, God promised King David that a blood descendent of King David’s would one day rule from David’s throne. God further promised David that this descendent would rule over His kingdom forever.

Of course we now know that it was Jesus who God sent to rule forever from David’s throne. - "*He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. * Luke 1:32

And of course, something only Jews did where Jesus was born during that period:

And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called JESUS, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. Luke 2:21

I just watched an interesting show about Paul. When Paul was trying to get converts, especially in Greece where Jews were few and hard between, it was hard to get converts when circumsion was required to become Christian. Converting Jews was easy because they already had that done.

I can just imagine Paul preaching to a non-Jew. The non-Jew would shake his head and say, “Yes, I believe!”. Then we Paul says some of the requirements, I could imagine the non-Jew saying, "You want me to do what to my what!!!

 

[Janet1983]

So what is your point again, Janet?

Is it this: IF Mary had been sinless, she could have been the atonement for our sins

My point? It took a perfect sacrifice. Mary was not perfect or she could have done it…

 

[Born_Warrior]

I mean just that. You can’t refute his claims. What authority do you have to say that your interpretation of Scripture is correct and his isn’t? He read the verses in Scripture and no where did it say “Jesus was a Jew”, so he has his “Holy Spirit-guided” viewpoint and, in your paradigm, that’s all that’s needed isn’t it?

You, the Bible and the Holy Spirit? The Holy Trinity of Interpretation?

Sadly, what you say is not surprising to me. There are more clueless-Joe Catholics than there are subscribers to the CAFs. :sad_yes:

The Bible does mention some things about Jesus being Jewish.

Very early in the morning, the leading priests, the older Jewish leaders, the teachers of the law, and all the Jewish council decided what to do with Jesus. They tied Jesus and led him to Pilate, the governor. They gave Jesus to Pilate. Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” Jesus answered, "Yes, that is right. Mark 15:1-2

Jesus Christ will be the King of the Jews as He plainly answered in a specific question, but will His Kingship extend over all of humanity i.e. will He be the “King of kings and Lord of lords” of all the earth Revelation 19:16

In 2 Samuel 7.12-13, God promised King David that a blood descendent of King David’s would one day rule from David’s throne. God further promised David that this descendent would rule over His kingdom forever.

Of course we now know that it was Jesus who God sent to rule forever from David’s throne. - "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. Luke 1:32

And of course, something only Jews did where Jesus was born during that period:

And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called JESUS, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. Luke 2:21

As far as Joe-Catholics go, there are plenty of Joe -name your sect- Christians out there.

 

[Janet1983]

Our enmity with the devil is not complete. That of the Woman’s Seed aka Jesus Christ was. The problem you cannot surmount is that the Scripture applies the same enmity to the Woman.

The woman being Eve. I’d be pretty upset with him too if I’d just been kicked out of Paradise…

By your logic God could not promise not to flood the earth again because that would limit His power. Or promise that those who are in Christ will not be condemned…

He promised that. He did not however promise Mary’s sinlessness.

Mary did not do so. She was assumed or raptured just like Enoch or Elijah. Both words mean to be pulled up, not to ascend under your own power. Only God can do that.

Yes and both (Enoch and Elijah) were accounted for in Scripture…

The road you are on leads to the denial of the divinity of Christ.

No. Why would you accuse me of that? Christ’s divinity has never been in question for me. He is my Lord and my God.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The term Christian is used three times in the New Testament, and it is never used by Jesus in reference to his followers, nor is the term used amongst his followers.

The term Christian is not even used among the disciples of Jesus, to describe one another.

That begs the question of what they themselves called their Church. The answer is in Acts 9:31 but only in the original Greek.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7471

 

[Cat_Herder]

The woman being Eve. I’d be pretty upset with him too if I’d just been kicked out of Paradise…

Eve was not at enmity with the devil, period. It is her fault that sin exists. And she was certainly not at the same enmity with the devil that Christ was.

No. Why would you accuse me of that? Christ’s divinity has never been in question for me. He is my Lord and my God.

Because you want to hypothetically crucify Mary.

 

[Janet1983]

That begs the question of what they themselves called their Church. The answer is in Acts 9:31 but only in the original Greek.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7471

You call that a word?
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 9:31[/BIBLEDRB]

καθ’ (kath) = “throughout” and ὅλης (olēs) = “all” in above text… That doesn’t say a whole lot about what they themselves called their church…
“ἐκκλησία” is the word for church and it was also put into Latin as “ecclesia” as you surely know.

 

[Born_Warrior]

That begs the question of what they themselves called their Church. The answer is in Acts 9:31 but only in the original Greek.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=7471

So the word “Church” is used instead of “Churches” in the original Greek. What does that have to do with anything I am talking about, or the fact the Jesus was Jewish?

 

[Cat_Herder]

You call that a word?
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 9:31[/BIBLEDRB]

καθ’ (kath) = “throughout” and ὅλης (olēs) = “all” in above text… That doesn’t say a whole lot about what they themselves called their church…
“ἐκκλησία” is the word for church and it was also put into Latin as “ecclesia” as you surely know.

They called the universal church “ecclesia kataholos” or “ecclesia katholes.” Be honest and look at any dictionary’s etymology for the word “catholic.”

 

[Born_Warrior]

They called the universal church “ecclesia kataholos” or “ecclesia katholes.” Be honest and look at any dictionary’s etymology for the word “catholic.”

Point?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Return to the topic please

 

[Janet1983]

Eve was not at enmity with the devil, period. It is her fault that sin exists. And she was certainly not at the same enmity with the devil that Christ was.

She was. And you just quoted it…

God asked Adam, what he did and Adam answered:
“The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.” (Pass the bucket.)

God asked Eve, what she had done and she replies:
“The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.” (Pass the bucket.)

God cursed the serpent and mentioned the passage you quote and right after that He went on to address her (and after that Adam):
“And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

Because you want to hypothetically crucify Mary.

I don’t believe she was sinless…
I don’t have a problem with her being who she was… A wonderful godly woman who was incredibly blessed by her Lord and Saviour. She was just not the One who knew no sin.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Bible does mention some things about Jesus being Jewish.

Very early in the morning, the leading priests, the older Jewish leaders, the teachers of the law, and all the Jewish council decided what to do with Jesus. They tied Jesus and led him to Pilate, the governor. They gave Jesus to Pilate. Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” Jesus answered, "Yes, that is right. Mark 15:1-2

Jesus Christ will be the King of the Jews as He plainly answered in a specific question, but will His Kingship extend over all of humanity i.e. will He be the “King of kings and Lord of lords” of all the earth Revelation 19:16

In 2 Samuel 7.12-13, God promised King David that a blood descendent of King David’s would one day rule from David’s throne. God further promised David that this descendent would rule over His kingdom forever.

Of course we now know that it was Jesus who God sent to rule forever from David’s throne. - "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. Luke 1:32

And of course, something only Jews did where Jesus was born during that period:

And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called JESUS, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. Luke 2:21

As far as Joe-Catholics go, there are plenty of Joe -name your sect- Christians out there.

You can trace Marys Geneology throught the Bible and Elisabeths, They are Levites. Though I believe theres Jewish blood in there family also. I’ll find the link and post.

 

[JustaServant]

Point?

You know BW, I’m a little confused here, just as a casual reader. In your 50+ posts here you have repeatedly asked “where is that in the Bible, where is the Scripture”, and when it is presented you say “well you’re just throwing out verses”.

So, I’m sure nobody is really pinned down what exactly it is you are looking for.
I think your wrestling match is ultimately with history, not with what the Church believes about the Blessed Mother.