Why the Islamic Hadiths are not too reliable

[Verisimilitude]

** There was no need for Jibreel to visit waraqa. Waraqa having the religious knowledge of the previous scriptures could foretell some event that he had known. There was no need of any fresh revelation to Waraqa at that time.

After hearing the incident, Waraqa could tell what he knew about it. And he was right. He had noted such things and that archangel appeared to many prophets before too. So he could only foretell something.

Waraqa said that it appeared that Muhammad had been visited by the archangel gabriel and he is destined to be a prophet of God. He also foretold that Muhamamd will have a bad time with his people and they may kick him out of the city (Makkah)… That he is too old and may not be alive then to see the eviction of Muhammad from his city…

This was in accordance with the teachings of Jesus when he said that “A prophet is never respected and welcome in his native city…” Please try to read your bible too.**

Aisha is recording these stories that took place 5 years before she was born. She was 18 when Mohammed died, and the revelations took a total of 23 yrs. Of course he might have told her bedtime stories when she was betrothed at 6 yrs old and entered his house. I think she added the bit about being persecuted and kicked out, but truth be told Mohammed lived in Mecca for 13 years before going to Medina and marrying Aisha there consumating the marriage when she was 9 yrs old.

I would guess these hadith were recorded after Mohammeds death. They took longer to put together than the Qurasn. Maybe when her dad (Abu Bekr) became leader of the Muslims and he had to fight a war with the Arabs who tried to renounce Islam after Mohammed died.

Either way, neither Waraqa or Aisha had any legitimacy to be so sure of who spoke to Mohammed. Mohammed did not know and neither do they…or you. That spirit (Rooh) was not Gabriel. It was wrong for it to let Mohammed believe it was a spirit of God, but demons deceive men all the time. iblees says so in the Koran. It is Satan speaking to Mohammed in the Quran.

 

[dolphinlove]

** The topic is “Why the Islamic hadith are not too reliable?”

I give the answer. It is because they are just a slightly better than the bible NT. **.

Oh Planten, your ability to not understand the beauty of the NT bible saddens me.
I can understand where you are coming from, to live your whole life believing in something that is simply not true is very hard to take, then to read the NT and the truth about God must be a bit of a shock to the system. I truly hope your heart will not be harden forever and you will understand the truth that Jesus is God’s son.

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;3612610:

**Why it is irrelevent? **It is most important and relevant to note that the Torah was being read to Muhammad ****

COLOR]exactly my point.

 

[inJESUS]

** There was no need for Jibreel to visit waraqa. Waraqa having the religious knowledge of the previous scriptures could foretell some event that he had known. There was no need of any fresh revelation to Waraqa at that time.

After hearing the incident, Waraqa could tell what he knew about it. And he was right. He had noted such things and that archangel appeared to many prophets before too. So he could only foretell something.

Waraqa said that it appeared that Muhammad had been visited by the archangel gabriel and he is destined to be a prophet of God. He also foretold that Muhamamd will have a bad time with his people and they may kick him out of the city (Makkah)… That he is too old and may not be alive then to see the eviction of Muhammad from his city…

This was in accordance with the teachings of Jesus when he said that “A prophet is never respected and welcome in his native city…” Please try to read your bible too.**

Waraqa did not say that he found Muhammad it in the scriptures …He THOUGHT that Muhammad’s experience resembled some reports found in the scriptures and we wonder how Waraqa came to this conclusion since neither the way of revelation via an angel who choked Muhammad and made him think he was demon-possessed, nor the content of the words he is supposed to repeat (Sura 96:1-5) are similar to anything found in the Bible:

He said: “Read in the name of thy Lord who created, Who created man of blood coagulated. Read! Thy Lord is the most beneficient, Who taught by the pen, Taught that which they knew not unto men”.

We cannot connect this to anything in the Bible and there are no “threatening/choking” angels with any earlier prophets at all. That is very not similar to what Waraqa is saying.

All in all, it was a mere faulty opinion not based on the Bible.

 

[AgnosTheist]

To Agnos–the person who reported that hadith witnessed it apparently. But you didn’t. That’s why you don’t believe it.

the person was lying because nobody else saw it. if the moon was split everyone will see it from greece to western china, from russia to india. it will be recorded. it will be on peoples lips for hundreds of years.

 

[planten]

Either way, neither Waraqa or Aisha had any legitimacy to be so sure of who spoke to Mohammed. Mohammed did not know and neither do they…or you. That spirit (Rooh) was not Gabriel. It was wrong for it to let Mohammed believe it was a spirit of God, but demons deceive men all the time. iblees says so in the Koran. It is Satan speaking to Mohammed in the Quran.

**That is not right. That is like saying "The devil visited Joseph the carpentar and told him false things about Mary being pregnant. Would the christians take it happily?

In any case it was altogether a wrong theory to put god into a womb. The theory of re-incarnation or incarnation is wrong on this point that that Incarnation could be done in any walking talking man. There was no need to do it through a birth. That was not necessary and did not happen and would never happen that a god would enter into the womb of a woman.

So the story of the angel coming to Joseph the carpentar is also false and made up story. There was no angel. Somebody made up that story or it was some devil who visited the carpentar father of Jesus. Would Verisimilitude support that idea too?**

 

[planten]

Oh Planten, your ability to not understand the beauty of the NT bible saddens me.
I can understand where you are coming from, to live your whole life believing in something that is simply not true is very hard to take, then to read the NT and the truth about God must be a bit of a shock to the system. I truly hope your heart will not be harden forever and you will understand the truth that Jesus is God’s son.

**Sorry DL, I cannot go with the christian idea of interpretation of the bible NT. I read the bible. I love it and enjoy reading it. But it is not what the churchmen are trying to teach. Bible is available every where and every one reads. There is no problem in the bible even in its present form. That is because some truth is still there.

But when the meaning of the bible are twisted by use of metaphors etc. then it becomes something wrong. Cannot be believed.**

 

[inJESUS]

That is not right. That is like saying "The devil visited Joseph the carpentar and told him false things about Mary being pregnant. Would the christians take it happily?

what does an angel visiting Joseph have to do with a man proclaiming another man a prophet?

 

[inJESUS]

**

But when the meaning of the bible are twisted by use of metaphors etc. then it becomes something wrong. Cannot be believed.**

Jesus taught using parables, analogies and metaphores. Do you think He was wrong?

 

[Verisimilitude]

**That is not right. That is like saying "The devil visited Joseph the carpentar and told him false things about Mary being pregnant. Would the christians take it happily? **

No, which is why I am unhappy that the spirit that told Mohammed things that are untrue and you believe them as do all Muslims. The difference is not only in what is said, but who said it and that is my point. The spirit talking to Mohammed cannot be validated or trusted.

In any case it was altogether a wrong theory to put god into a womb. The theory of re-incarnation or incarnation is wrong on this point that that Incarnation could be done in any walking talking man. There was no need to do it through a birth. That was not necessary and did not happen and would never happen that a god would enter into the womb of a woman.

It might be wrong theory to Islam but it is true reality. God thought it was neccessary and it did happen as recorded in the Gospels, not as revealed by the spirit to Mohammed 600 years after Christ.

**So the story of the angel coming to Joseph the carpentar is also false and made up story. There was no angel. Somebody made up that story or it was some devil who visited the carpentar father of Jesus. Would Verisimilitude support that idea too? **

I might if there was no Gospel to tell me other wise before the Qur’an.

Let me ask you differently. If I said God spoke to me yesterday and I wrote a book about Mohammed and Jesus and Abraham telling the world what God told me about them, but I said God told me Abraham had no children, Jesus was really a female, and Mohammed never married Khadijah; what would you say? Let’s assume many people believe me because before my talk with God I was known to be an honest man so people still believe I am being honest.

If you were sincere to know if God really spoke to me you would ask me for some proof. This is logical since what I am saying is different from what you have believed for a long time, but I claim the same God that spoke to Mohammed also spoke to me and the only proof is the book I wrote.

When you point to the Qur’an or hadith to support Mohammeds first wife, I tell you they are corrupted and cannot be believed because God told me it was corrupt. I say the same to the Jews and Christians when they point to their books.

Now imagine I have convinced the whole imaginary town we live in to believe me and not you, or the Jews, or the Christians. Do you hate those who believe me, or do you hate me for convincing them to beleive me? Or did god really tell me the truth?

 

[tomshaikh]

The Hadiths are a good source of information on Mohammad’s life. But its not 100% reliable. There are obvious errors in it. For example:

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html#004.056.830

Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 56, Number 830:
Narrated Abdullah bin Masud:

During the lifetime of the Prophet the moon was split into two parts and on that the Prophet said, “Bear witness (to thus).”

This is a complete lie for nobody else had ever witnessed that alleged event happening hundreds of miles above the earth.

Well this hadith authentication is mentioned by Quran. So this hadiths is correct. If you wanna read hadiths I will advised you to read from Bukhari and Sahi Muslim. Those are authentic hadiths. Here is that splitting act of moon describe in Quran as below

Surah/Chapter : Al-Qamar

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon).] (1) And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: “This is continuous magic.” (2) They belied (the Verses of Allâh, this Qur’ân), and followed their own lusts. And every matter will be settled [according to the kind of deeds (good deeds will take their doers to Paradise, and similarly evil deeds will take their doers to Hell)]. (3) And indeed there has come to them news (in this Qur’ân) wherein there is (enough warning) to check (them from evil), (4) Perfect wisdom (this Qur’ân), but (the preaching of) warners benefit them not, (5) So (O Muhammad SAW) withdraw from them. The Day that the caller will call (them) to a terrible thing. (6) They will come forth, with humbled eyes from (their) graves as if they were locusts spread abroad, (7) Hastening towards The caller, the disbelievers will say: “This is a hard Day.” (8) The people of Nûh (Noah) denied (their Messenger) before them, They rejected Our slave, and said: “A madman!” and he was insolently rebuked and threatened. (9) Then he invoked his Lord (saying): “I have been overcome, so help (me)!” (10) So We opened the gates of heaven with water pouring forth. (11) And We caused the spring to gush forth from the earth. So the waters (of the heaven and the earth) met for a matter predestined (12) And We carried him on a (ship) made of planks and nails, (13) Floating under Our Eyes, a reward for him who had been rejected! (14) And indeed, We have left this as a sign, Then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)? (15) Then how (terrible) was My Torment and My Warnings? (16) And We have indeed made the Qur’ân easy to understand and remember, then is there any one who will remember (or receive admonition)? (17)

(Quran-54:1-17) (Quran-Chapter:54, Verses:1-17)

Peace

 

[inJESUS]

Versimilitude,

nice post.

 

[planten]

what does an angel visiting Joseph have to do with a man proclaiming another man a prophet?

 

[planten]

Jesus taught using parables, analogies and metaphores. Do you think He was wrong?

** No it is not wrong at all. In fact it is a very good way of teaching. It is a high level way of teaching. But that needs high level people to understand what the Teacher (Jesus was also a Teacher) was teaching.

That was the problem with the disciples too. They were always asking the Master about the meaning of his parables. That is exactly the case now. The christians are not understanding the real high level meaning of the words of Jesus.

Jesus is not here any more and the christians cannot ask him anything. Their church leaders are misleading the common christians. It was first the duty of the church leaders to be careful and understand the parables and then explain the same to the common people. But they did not do it.

If Jesus said “I am the Alpha and the Omega” or he said that “I and father are one”, or “I am the light” or “I am the son of God”, these are all metaphoric, symbolic words of wisdom. We Muslims understand all these things and believe in them. Thanks.**

 

[inJESUS]

Planten,

being visited by an angel is Biblical…nothing wrong with it. But the Bible tells satan can appear as an angel of light. So the criteria is the message, the true identity of the spirit who nearly choked Muhammad and ended up fearing he is demon-possessed and who oppose the previous scriptures. Joseph did not oppose scriptures, did not think he is demon-possessed, nor did he give a different gospel.

 

[planten]

Planten,

being visited by an angel is Biblical…nothing wrong with it. But the Bible tells satan can appear as an angel of light. So the criteria is the message, the true identity of the spirit who nearly choked Muhammad and ended up fearing he is demon-possessed and who oppose the previous scriptures. Joseph did not oppose scriptures, did not think he is demon-possessed, nor did he give a different gospel.

I am not worried about the teachings of Jesus. Of course, I truely believe in his teachings. I am only referring to the inadequate (bad) visit of the angel (?) to Joseph the carpentar telling him something wrong and you believing that.

 

[inJESUS]

It was first the duty of the church leaders to be careful and understand the parables and then explain the same to the common people. But they did not do it.

 

[inJESUS]

I am not worried about the teachings of Jesus. Of course, I truely believe in his teachings. I am only referring to the inadequate (bad) visit of the angel (?) to Joseph the carpentar telling him something wrong and you believing that.

if he told him something wrong, what is it?

 

[planten]

No, which is why I am unhappy that the spirit that told Mohammed things that are untrue and you believe them as do all Muslims. The difference is not only in what is said, but who said it and that is my point. The spirit talking to Mohammed cannot be validated or trusted.

The problem is that all Muslims love Jesus and believe in him ( except that he was a God). The muslims love and believe in him ( to some good extent). But what do the christians do?? They do nothing of the sort except some kind of abuse for Muhammad.

It might be wrong theory to Islam but it is true reality. God thought it was neccessary and it did happen as recorded in the Gospels, not as revealed by the spirit to Mohammed 600 years after Christ.

God does not think and it is not true that God entered into the womb of woman. jesus was not son of God. He was the son of a woman. That is in accordance with the words of the bible too. You all know that Jesus was son of Mary, a woman. That much is certain, definite. Rest is all wishful thinking, surmising.

I might if there was no Gospel to tell me other wise before the Qur’an.

Bible is not telling you to disbelieve in the Quran or to hate (deny and oppose) the men of God.

Let me ask you differently. If I said God spoke to me yesterday and I wrote a book about Mohammed and Jesus and Abraham telling the world what God told me about them, but I said God told me Abraham had no children, Jesus was really a female, and Mohammed never married Khadijah; what would you say? Let’s assume many people believe me because before my talk with God I was known to be an honest man so people still believe I am being honest

.
That is all impossible. You try to do that. Say: God told me Abraham had no children, Jesus was really a female, and Mohammed never married Khadijah; then see what people will think about you. They will come to you asking you if you are mad man? Try it practically, please, and do not build castles in the air.

If you were sincere to know if God really spoke to me you would ask me for some proof. This is logical since what I am saying is different from what you have believed for a long time, but I claim the same God that spoke to Mohammed also spoke to me and the only proof is the book I wrote.

When you point to the Qur’an or hadith to support Mohammeds first wife, I tell you they are corrupted and cannot be believed because God told me it was corrupt. I say the same to the Jews and Christians when they point to their books.

Now imagine I have convinced the whole imaginary town we live in to believe me and not you, or the Jews, or the Christians. Do you hate those who believe me, or do you hate me for convincing them to beleive me? Or did god really tell me the truth?

** I Have replied to most of your problems above. I have nothing (no problem) against Jesus or his true disciples. It is you who need to understand things in real practical perspective.

I do not hate any one, not even you. You are responsible for your deeds. Nobody will help you in the next world. And nobody will help me in the next world. What we are doing now will remain with us and our children for some time. (long time?)**

 

[inJESUS]

**The problem is that all Muslims love Jesus and believe in him ( except that he was a God). The muslims love and believe in him ( to some good extent). **

the Jesus you know is the Jesus of gnosticism and apocrypha. You do not believe He died, you do not believe He will come to judge your soul, you do not believe He is the Word in flesh, among other things.

But what do the christians do?? They do nothing of the sort except some kind of abuse for Muhammad.