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Pariah_Pirana
Guest
Perhaps. Ignorance is one thing, but where does the disobdience stem from?
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Pariah_Pirana
Guest
About six months ago I reluctantly went to Mass at a local parish with a poor reputation. What a surprising delight! The celebrant was helping the pastor (he’s a major prison/jail chaplin) and he celebrated the Mass by the book! I don’t know how long it’s been since I have seen a chalice pall but I did on that day.
His only deviations away from a total “textbook Mass” was his use of an Eastern Catholic thurible with bells (he swung it like an Eastern Catholic priest too) and he carried a small hand-cross also like the easterners do. Because he put down and picked up the hand-cross before/after Mass, that was a non-issue and it actually looked nice. His incensing did not follow the western tradition, but it was dramatic and nice.
I have been back a few times since – when I know he will be the celebrant. Oddly, their parish office is not quick to give out such information. I have talked to parishioners and they confirmed that “he’s his own man, totally compliant with the Vatican and dismissive those those who try to mess with the Mass.”
His only deviations away from a total “textbook Mass” was his use of an Eastern Catholic thurible with bells (he swung it like an Eastern Catholic priest too) and he carried a small hand-cross also like the easterners do. Because he put down and picked up the hand-cross before/after Mass, that was a non-issue and it actually looked nice. His incensing did not follow the western tradition, but it was dramatic and nice.
I have been back a few times since – when I know he will be the celebrant. Oddly, their parish office is not quick to give out such information. I have talked to parishioners and they confirmed that “he’s his own man, totally compliant with the Vatican and dismissive those those who try to mess with the Mass.”
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Pariah_Pirana
Guest
usqueadmortem said:
What causes “modernism?”
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buffalo
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
**Liberalism is the root of heresy, the tree of evil in whose branches all the harpies of infidelity find ample shelter; it is today the evil of all evils. (Ch. 4). “The theater, literature, public and private morals are all saturated with obscenity and impurity. The result is inevitable; a corrupt generation necessarily begets a revolutionary generation. Liberalism is the program of naturalism. Free-thought begets free morals, or immorality. Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. Whoever thinks what he pleases will do what he pleases. Liberalism in the intellectual order is license in the moral order. Disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa. Thus does Liberalism propagate immorality, and immorality Liberalism.” (Ch. 26).
Liberalism “is, therefore, the radical and universal denial of all divine truth and Christian dogma, the primal type of all heresy, and the supreme rebellion against the authority of God and His Church. As with Lucifer, its maxim is, ‘I will not serve.’” (Ch. 3).
“Liberalism, whether in the doctrinal or practical order, is a sin. In the doctrinal order, it is heresy, and consequently a mortal sin against faith. In the practical order, it is a sin against the commandments of God and of the Church, for it virtually transgresses all commandments. To be more precise: in the doctrinal order, Liberalism strikes at the very foundations of faith; it is heresy radical and universal, because within it are comprehended all heresies. In the practical order it is a radical and universal infraction of the divine law, since it sanctions and authorizes all infractions of that law.” (Ch. 3).
more…
From LIBERALISM IS A SIN - it’s all in here.
**
**Liberalism is the root of heresy, the tree of evil in whose branches all the harpies of infidelity find ample shelter; it is today the evil of all evils. (Ch. 4). “The theater, literature, public and private morals are all saturated with obscenity and impurity. The result is inevitable; a corrupt generation necessarily begets a revolutionary generation. Liberalism is the program of naturalism. Free-thought begets free morals, or immorality. Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. Whoever thinks what he pleases will do what he pleases. Liberalism in the intellectual order is license in the moral order. Disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa. Thus does Liberalism propagate immorality, and immorality Liberalism.” (Ch. 26).
Liberalism “is, therefore, the radical and universal denial of all divine truth and Christian dogma, the primal type of all heresy, and the supreme rebellion against the authority of God and His Church. As with Lucifer, its maxim is, ‘I will not serve.’” (Ch. 3).
“Liberalism, whether in the doctrinal or practical order, is a sin. In the doctrinal order, it is heresy, and consequently a mortal sin against faith. In the practical order, it is a sin against the commandments of God and of the Church, for it virtually transgresses all commandments. To be more precise: in the doctrinal order, Liberalism strikes at the very foundations of faith; it is heresy radical and universal, because within it are comprehended all heresies. In the practical order it is a radical and universal infraction of the divine law, since it sanctions and authorizes all infractions of that law.” (Ch. 3).
more…
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Pariah_Pirana
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buffalo said:
It’s simply not true, that “**liberalism is the root of heresy” **-- for many people the label “liberal” is a catch-all word that they do not really understand.
But my real question deals with the ORIGIN of the problem. If for example “liberalism” was indeed the cause of all the problems in the Church, WHAT CAUSES “liberalism?”
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buffalo
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
Liberalism Is A Sin is one of the most important books for Catholics today (and for non-Catholics, too, if they will read it with an open mind). For it discusses the problem of Liberalism, both in its principles and in all its details and ramifications. (It must be noted here that as the word is used in this present context, “Liberalism” refers to religion and not to politics, though it definitely bears upon that realm as well.)
By definition, Liberalism is the mistaken notion that “One religion is as good as another.” The absurdity of this proposition is immediately obvious to all, for two beliefs that contradict each other cannot at the same time both be true. Therefore, insofar as one at least is false, it is simply not good at all, and definitely it is not as good as a belief which is true. Nor is it even as good as one that is nearer to the truth. Also, Liberalism takes no cognizance of there being in the world a One, True, Divinely revealed Religion that is true in all its doctrines and moral teachings—which is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church unabashedly maintains that it is.
This book shows that Liberalism—at least here in America—is all-pervasive and is almost, as it were, universally victorious over the thinking of our people. Yet as a religious—philosophical tenet it is false! And woefully so! For, as the author points out, it leads to an eventual denial of any truth whatsoever by some of its adherents. For people hear first one religious “truth” asserted and then another that contradicts it, and soon they are so confused that they do not know what to believe. And often they end up believing nothing—or holding that nothing is certain, even in matters relating to the Natural Law, which all people know through the use of their reason alone.
Regarding its source, Liberalism, as the author shows very clearly, is a direct result of Protestantism, with its tenet of private interpretation of the Bible. For if a person has a right to decide for himself what the Bible means, this says in effect that he has a right to choose whether he will believe or not believe certain revealed teachings. Then in effect, he also has a right to believe nothing at all. Whereas the correct view is that when the mind of man sees the divinely revealed truth, he has NO CHOICE, morally speaking, to reject it. Its obvious truth requires that he must accept it as true.
From Liberalism is a Sin
Liberalism Is A Sin is one of the most important books for Catholics today (and for non-Catholics, too, if they will read it with an open mind). For it discusses the problem of Liberalism, both in its principles and in all its details and ramifications. (It must be noted here that as the word is used in this present context, “Liberalism” refers to religion and not to politics, though it definitely bears upon that realm as well.)
By definition, Liberalism is the mistaken notion that “One religion is as good as another.” The absurdity of this proposition is immediately obvious to all, for two beliefs that contradict each other cannot at the same time both be true. Therefore, insofar as one at least is false, it is simply not good at all, and definitely it is not as good as a belief which is true. Nor is it even as good as one that is nearer to the truth. Also, Liberalism takes no cognizance of there being in the world a One, True, Divinely revealed Religion that is true in all its doctrines and moral teachings—which is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church unabashedly maintains that it is.
This book shows that Liberalism—at least here in America—is all-pervasive and is almost, as it were, universally victorious over the thinking of our people. Yet as a religious—philosophical tenet it is false! And woefully so! For, as the author points out, it leads to an eventual denial of any truth whatsoever by some of its adherents. For people hear first one religious “truth” asserted and then another that contradicts it, and soon they are so confused that they do not know what to believe. And often they end up believing nothing—or holding that nothing is certain, even in matters relating to the Natural Law, which all people know through the use of their reason alone.
Regarding its source, Liberalism, as the author shows very clearly, is a direct result of Protestantism, with its tenet of private interpretation of the Bible. For if a person has a right to decide for himself what the Bible means, this says in effect that he has a right to choose whether he will believe or not believe certain revealed teachings. Then in effect, he also has a right to believe nothing at all. Whereas the correct view is that when the mind of man sees the divinely revealed truth, he has NO CHOICE, morally speaking, to reject it. Its obvious truth requires that he must accept it as true.
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TNT
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
The easier and more inviting it is toward abuse, the more will abuse occur.
The New Mass was designed for a lot of flexibility which inadvertantly invites and makes easier its abuse.
Many of the public Masses of JPII would fall into the “highly irregular” category, so the top man did little to set an example of strictly defined liturgical norms.
Without a great deal of oversite by the hierarchy including the the top men, the abuse will prevail. But, since collegialty is the new style of supervision, from top to bottom, the effective oversite is nearly non-existent.
The TLM COULD be abused, but for the most part was bullet proof and designed that way because of the antics of the reformation heretics, especially England’s Cramner and Germany’s Luther.
Now, today, some of the most exterme abuses are English speaking and German speaking countries…interesting.
Because what can be abused WILL be abused. Human nature (fallen).
The easier and more inviting it is toward abuse, the more will abuse occur.
The New Mass was designed for a lot of flexibility which inadvertantly invites and makes easier its abuse.
Many of the public Masses of JPII would fall into the “highly irregular” category, so the top man did little to set an example of strictly defined liturgical norms.
Without a great deal of oversite by the hierarchy including the the top men, the abuse will prevail. But, since collegialty is the new style of supervision, from top to bottom, the effective oversite is nearly non-existent.
The TLM COULD be abused, but for the most part was bullet proof and designed that way because of the antics of the reformation heretics, especially England’s Cramner and Germany’s Luther.
Now, today, some of the most exterme abuses are English speaking and German speaking countries…interesting.
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Pariah_Pirana
Guest
OK, if this is all due to private revelation, what causes private revelation? Protestantism is a symptom. I’m looking for a root cause…
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TNT
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
Here you are:
The ROOT cause is Ecumenism (now run amuck)!
There.
OK.
Here you are:
The ROOT cause is Ecumenism (now run amuck)!
There.
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TNT
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
Rationalism which degrades to relativism because it sets man’s mind alone at the TOP of the MORAL order.
If you keep digging back, you end up with Original sin which is another way of saying :
MY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS THERE IS NO HEAVEN
OK.
Rationalism which degrades to relativism because it sets man’s mind alone at the TOP of the MORAL order.
If you keep digging back, you end up with Original sin which is another way of saying :
MY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS THERE IS NO HEAVEN
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buffalo
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
Not private revelation - private interpretation.
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Pariah_Pirana
Guest
You need to drill-down even more. Why do people exert positions that run contrary to what the Church directs? They could just as well be zealots for the faith. Why the dissent?
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bear06
Guest
It’s the “E” word again. I’ve got to say that I’m never really sure what people mean when they say this. Is all Ecumenism bad? I don’t think so. Here’s an example of why.
During the Operation Rescue days we had a rally at one of the Catholic churches in the area. Yes, there were protestants there. Yes, we were all praying for the success of the rescue and for the end of abortion with said protestants. The most beautiful part was that Fr. Fessio was one of the speakers that night. He got up there and gave a great pro-life talk and then in the middle of the whole thing he turned around and pointed to the tabernacle. He then chose to explain to our protestant partners in crime that the child in the womb was very similar to Our Lord in the Host - that we can’t see Him but he is there. Where was a protestant ever going to get this analogy?
I can’t tell you how many people converted to Catholicism during the Operation Rescue years. This would seem to me to be true Ecumenism. It’s not that we sacrificed any of our truth but we did work and pray with our protestant friends for a common goal.
I worked in the OR office with many protestants. I can tell you that many a debate went on during the work hours but while not giving in on our differences, we focused on what we agreed upon to accomplish good. In doing this, the protestants had great exposure to the Faith that they NEVER would have had in any other setting. This is a good thing! I kept my copy of Roman Catholicism and Fundamentalism and Scott Hahn’s conversion tapes at my desk and whipped them out quite often.
My point is that while there can definitely be abuses regarding Ecumenism, can’t there be a place to focus on what we have in common and can’t these settings be used to educate as Fr. Fessio did?
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Dr.Bombay
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
*All *sins can be traced back to one sin. Pride.
Someone’s already mentioned it. Pride, the very first sin. It’s the reason Old Nick got kicked out of heaven.
*All *sins can be traced back to one sin. Pride.
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Pariah_Pirana
Guest
This may sound overly simplistic, but I would say the single biggest reason for liturgical abuse at least in the USA is rabid, radical sexist-feminism aided by the laws of political correctness.
While sexism-feminism may be on the wane, it would take something like this to drive the level of arrogance and hatred necessary to do the damage that has been done to the Church over the past 30-40 years.
For example, the level of sexism-feminism institutionalized in the coursework (LIMEX - horrible) for future deacons (and their wives) in my diocese is chilling — literally scary…
While sexism-feminism may be on the wane, it would take something like this to drive the level of arrogance and hatred necessary to do the damage that has been done to the Church over the past 30-40 years.
For example, the level of sexism-feminism institutionalized in the coursework (LIMEX - horrible) for future deacons (and their wives) in my diocese is chilling — literally scary…
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Dr.Bombay
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
Or is your location “Vatican City/State” just a metaphorical location, a state of mind if you will?
Please clarify something for me. Is your diocese really the archdiocese of Rome? If so, after hearing you relate some of what goes on there, we are in deep doo doo.
Or is your location “Vatican City/State” just a metaphorical location, a state of mind if you will?
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Max_Kolbe
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
I came to my parish yesterday for Mass and the Alter Cloth was covered from top to bottom with multi-colored hands the kids had cut out and taped there. Am I being a jerk by saying it made me a little ill especially during the consecration? Needless to say I had alot of trouble in mass yesterday…
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TNT
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ames61
Guest
Max Kolbe:
Would this have been first communion? Our parish has used a white altar cloth with the kids hands in finger paint on it for first communion. Fortunately it was retired last year. Or maybe they use it as a table cloth for the reception.
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Pariah_Pirana
Guest
Only cowards cut and run…
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