Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False

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This contains a mistake. Materialists do not explain everything. They do not explain consciousness, for example, or how mathematics hooks up with the world, or how an argument could change a scientist’s brain. They only ALLOW explanations “solely in terms of impersonal objects.”
As I understand it, consciousness has not been explained because that phenomenon, and others, are still being investigated. It may turn out that it’s never completely explained. Others have claimed to have explained it as being a property endowed by a personal supernatural entity, for example. They could be correct, but I think they would be hard-pressed to prove their claims against other, unfalsiable explanations. In addition, AFAIK, they haven’t even proposed a mechanism by which a supernatural entity interacts with nature that can be investigated.
That would be fine if they said, ‘This is how we work and others may work in other ways,’ but instead they claim that what this is the only way to really know anything. But it is not the only way to know math, for example—a vast field devoted to non-material objects!. That it fails to account for consciousness or choice should be telling signs AGAINST it but instead materialism tries to explain we’re not REALLY conscious and we don’t REALLY choose; this is all the burping and farting of brains and is no more significant than that. (Which they do not believe even as they say it.)
I’m a empiricist and I use the scientific method – not because it’s the only way or because it’s perfect – but because it has so far demonstrated that it has the best chance of resolving competing truth claims, IMO. If there is a better method, I’d consider using it.
 
I didn’t say it would and this misses the point. The issue is: the mental processes function similarly and are different as a matter of degree.

But they do have abstract intelligence, see, this is what I’m trying to get you to understand: you are not educated enough in primatology, or neuro-development, to know that what you believe is just not true. Their abstract thinking doesn’t approach the complexity of ours, but they definitely can use and decipher symbols. .
No, what the comparison of the 3-year-old child and chimp show is that the CEILING for the chimp is the FLOOR for a human. This doesn’t bolster your case; it demolishes it, as chimps mature much faster than humans do. (A 3-year-old chimp should be much SMARTER than a 3-year-old child, as most children spend their first year sleeping and nursing, while chimps are up and about and have many more types of experiences than newborns and infants. But they’re not smarter. It’s a trick to give them an IQ test at all, and it is odd that primatologists assume that if you’ve tested one 3-year-old chimp you’ve
tested them all but no one thinks that way about a child because intelligence varies in people, in some cases a great deal.

Their symbols (-most of which we have to teach them) are the fruit of sensitive intellect, not an abstract one. (When primatologists observe two primates fighting, how often do they assume the cause might be political or religious differences? A philosophic dispute? Artistic differences? Answer: never.) It’s not like they are writing books and I’m arguing that they’re poor books, or that their philosophy is rudimentary or their history slapdash—they don’t have these things, period. All human beings talk about the future but no other animal does. Again, it’s not like they say silly things about the future or have a naive political discussions—they don’t have these things at all and yet these things are central to our lives. To say ‘they really have them too, just to a lesser degree’ is a case of seeing what you want to see rather than what you have reason to believe.
 
I’m a empiricist and I use the scientific method – not because it’s the only way or because it’s perfect – but because it has so far demonstrated that it has the best chance of resolving competing truth claims, IMO. If there is a better method, I’d consider using it.
There is no such animal as “the scientific method.” Sciences vary (-astrophysicists and biologists do not use the same method, and psychology offers a cornucopia of methods.)

The mistake empiricists made was to claim that nothing was real or true unless they could weigh or measure it. But they can’t explain why a man takes up science in the first place, or how a theory can change a brain state. The ancients did not think they had explained consciousness; they took it as a brute fact of our existence. When you know something is true and know your theory can’t account for it, it’s time to re-think your theory, not time to deny the reality of whatever doesn’t fit the theory.
 
No, what the comparison of the 3-year-old child and chimp show is that the CEILING for the chimp is the FLOOR for a human. .
See you’ve done it again. The test was an IQ test, not an “abstract thinking test.” You are simply refusing to face what are facts, stating things that are not factual as fact, and g have nothing to back up your position. See the work of the Yerkes Primate center, read something from science and get out of denial. You’re wrong. That’s the long and short of it: you are simply wrong.

And I’m done responding to you.
 
There is no such animal as “the scientific method.” Sciences vary (-astrophysicists and biologists do not use the same method, and psychology offers a cornucopia of methods.)
They are still methods based upon observation and testing of hypotheses.
The mistake empiricists made was to claim that nothing was real or true unless they could weigh or measure it.
Again, you seem to be trying to shoehorn every empiricist into the same worldview. I don’t claim that consciousness isn’t real or that truth doesn’t exist, for instance, just because they can’t be exhaustively measured with instruments.
But they can’t explain why a man takes up science in the first place, or how a theory can change a brain state. The ancients did not think they had explained consciousness; they took it as a brute fact of our existence.
If any alternative explanation can’t be tested and falsified then it can only remain speculation. Intuition, revelation and common sense, as Nagel’s reviewers pointed out, do not have a very good track record in explaining how things actually work.

Which brings me back to my original question. If it’s your position that: Since immaterial consciousness hasn’t been yet explained by material processes that it must therefore be a product of something which is also immaterial; how is that not an argument from ignorance? If that isn’t your position, then what is it?
When you know something is true and know your theory can’t account for it, it’s time to re-think your theory, not time to deny the reality of whatever doesn’t fit the theory.
I could not agree more. I’ve been offering that same advice to Young/Old Earth Creationists for yonks.
 
See you’ve done it again. The test was an IQ test, not an “abstract thinking test.”
Right, and why you introduced this as proof as abstract intelligence on the part of other primates confuses me still. The good news is that you’ve stopped responding to me. That is a relief.
 
If any alternative explanation can’t be tested and falsified then it can only remain speculation. Intuition, revelation and common sense, as Nagel’s reviewers pointed out, do not have a very good track record in explaining how things actually work.

Which brings me back to my original question. If it’s your position that: Since immaterial consciousness hasn’t been yet explained by material processes that it must therefore be a product of something which is also immaterial; how is that not an argument from ignorance? If that isn’t your position, then what is it?.
People do not have to explain HOW we have free will in order to hold people responsible for their moral choices. Determinists are in the position of arguing that people cannot help but do exactly what they do but it is okay to hold them responsible because, well, we can’t help but do that, either. (As a child, I wondered why, when a defense attorney argued that his client couldn’t help but do what he did, the jury foreman didn’t stand up and say, ‘And we can’t help but find him guilty!’ Determinists expect the idea of determinism to MAKE A DIFFERENCE in how people behave, but how could it? It is not a material object and can have no material impact on the brain. Put another way, if you believe someone should NOT be found guilty because you hear his actions were wholly determined, then determinism must be FALSE! Can’t you see that?)

Materialists have never demonstrated this. They have ASSUMED this.

The ancients did not believe they had EXPLAINED consciousness; it was something that they thought a coherent view of the world must account for. The same goes for human freedom and certain laws of thought (–identity, contradiction). They didn’t argue—as many moderns do–that causality is so problematic, we might should just get rid of the notion. They did not doubt that other people have minds, as many modern philosophers have, and they avoided the disastrous mistakes about what ideas are that have bedeviled modern thought. Moderns have created all manner of problems for themselves and rather than think, ‘you know, maybe the ideas that lead to these absurdities should be re-thought,’ they double-down on error and plow dead ahead.

To your second question, if you rule out material explanations, only immaterial ones are left. Consider nominalism, one of the worst ideas ever. Nominalists deny universals. They insist that, say, there is no common essence to which the term ‘dog’ (or ‘tree’ or ‘water’) refers, and that all they have in common is the name we give them. But when you ask them to explain universal agreement about what dogs are (-as opposed to cats and rose bushes and gold bars) they cannot. They have created a huge problem for themselves–how is it we can all tell dogs and cats apart even though all that makes something a dog is that we call it that and it is impossible in principle to suggest to anyone that, say, that rosebush they are calling a dog is not really a dog because NOTHING is really a dog–where none should exist at all. There are dogs and we can all tell this and any theory of reality that makes it impossible for people to recognize something as a dog because it is one is a theory best abandoned.

But that won’t do because it might mean that the ancients and medieval got some things right after all. (Actually, it is increasingly common for philosophers to find Aristotle worth reading again.)
 
Evolution by natural selection is an adequate explanation for the emergence of all biological species. “Human beings,” if we define that on this forum as a species imbued with a spiritual soul, cannot emerge only from biological processes.
Hard to give much credit to the part about souls when we have very little idea of what souls are in the first place, and even less how they actually come about, so “cannot emerge from biological processes” has little basis, IMO.

I do agree with you on you other comments on this thread re evolution, though.
 
Hard to give much credit to the part about souls when we have very little idea of what souls are in the first place, and even less how they actually come about, so “cannot emerge from biological processes” has little basis, IMO…
Well, if we accept what the Church says about the spiritual nature of the states of being of the afterlife, souls are not made of matter. Yet, they seem to be attached in some way to us and to survive the cessation of biological function. So that soul isn’t evolving from matter unless we figure out how matter is transmuted into spiritual energy.

OTOH, if we accept the “exchange of spiritual goods,” we are transmuting matter to spiritual energy every time we pray or make an intentional a sacrifice. So, I suppose it’s possible that neurology could become sufficiently - something - complex let’s say, to be able to transmit/receive information from the spiritual realm and generate it’s own something we call soul.
 
…]

To your second question, if you rule out material explanations, only immaterial ones are left.

…]
Assuming that you mean “rule out” in an a posteriori sense and in view of the fact that we’ve only begun to investigate our brains and their capabilities (let alone all other potential material bases), I assume then that you’re still open to the possibility that immaterial things like consciousness could be the result of material processes. I hope, as well, that you acknowledge the possibility that we may never know – one way or the other – how things like consciousness arise.
 
Well, if we accept what the Church says about the spiritual nature of the states of being of the afterlife, souls are not made of matter. Yet, they seem to be attached in some way to us and to survive the cessation of biological function. So that soul isn’t evolving from matter unless we figure out how matter is transmuted into spiritual energy.

OTOH, if we accept the “exchange of spiritual goods,” we are transmuting matter to spiritual energy every time we pray or make an intentional a sacrifice. So, I suppose it’s possible that neurology could become sufficiently - something - complex let’s say, to be able to transmit/receive information from the spiritual realm and generate it’s own something we call soul.
Maybe it exists on some plane somewhere, like a memory, or a platonic universal, an idea. In that case, I suppose one could postulate its “survival”. The strong argument against that is that we have no memory of ourselves before we are born, and our being is bound strongly to our earthly experience. I also remember reading about the objection that people who are brain damaged at birth or suffer some permanent brain injury lose that faculty completely. Their souls are not in a perfect form elsewhere independent of their physical forms. I think that is the strongest argument against souls existing independently.
 
. I also remember reading about the objection that people who are brain damaged at birth or suffer some permanent brain injury lose that faculty completely. Their souls are not in a perfect form elsewhere independent of their physical forms. I think that is the strongest argument against souls existing independently.
Yes, actually, their souls do seem to be in perfect form separate from bodies. If not, people who are blind couldn’t see during their NDEs. And they do.

Some people can lose a faculty completely and some people just use a different part of the brain.

But the brain being injured is like a glitch in a computer program. Your post might end up looking like r4*cxx@@=-)jBB but it doesn’t mean you didn’t type a perfectly normal word.

Anyway, I’m not going to argue about life after death with you because it’s not really the topic and there is a huge amount of evidence to support it. You’d just have to bother to look. Besides, I know for a fact we do.

You’ll figure it out.
 
For Darwin, this is true for all mammals TODAY too. Evolutionary pressures were not something that happened Way Back When and then stopped. They were, are, and shall remain constant.
That’s not correct. We have reached a point where we can control our own environment, so there’s a very good argument that for humans at least, evolution does not mean what it used to mean.
I think it would be a rare time in the history of ants that most of them starved for lack of food and only the “strong” (“fit”) survived. Darwin thought this the DEFINING problem of all organic life but it is not.
He didn’t think that ‘the strongest will survive’ was the defining problem. It’s nothing to do with strongest or biggest or fastest. He didn’t mean fittest as you perceive it. Darwin meant that the ‘fitter’ animal was one that was best ‘fitted’ to its environment. That can actually mean that something smaller (and hence weaker) can survive in times when there’s less food when something larger (and hence stronger) would die.
 
…if you rule out material explanations, only immaterial ones are left.
That would be more accurate if you said: ‘If you rule out ALL material explanations, only immaterial ones are left’.

And when you say ‘all material explanations’ you have to include the ones that have not yet been formulated, not just the ones that have been presented up to this point. Otherwise you just stop looking and Newton and Galileo wouldn’t have bothered going to work every morning.
 
That would be more accurate if you said: ‘If you rule out ALL material explanations, only immaterial ones are left’.

And when you say ‘all material explanations’ you have to include the ones that have not yet been formulated, not just the ones that have been presented up to this point. Otherwise you just stop looking and Newton and Galileo wouldn’t have bothered going to work every morning.
👍

But apparently it doesn’t matter to supernaturalists that we don’t know everything there is to know about physical reality - they’re still certain that they know the limits of nature, to the point where they can posit a level of reality beyond it.

To (probably) paraphrase Irish comedian Dara O’Briain, science knows it doesn’t know everything - if it did, it would stop.

If there were some detectable (by any reliable and testable means!) evidence of any supernatural reality, rather than just philosophical and theological blustering about the assumed limits of scientific knowledge, then you can bet that scientists would be the first to embrace it.
 
His direct line of descent goes back over 2 billion years. We’ve all got quite a family tree…
My comment applies to:
If you go back far enough you’ll find a mammal whose greatest success in life was staying alive long enough to inseminate a female. He wasn’t interested in talking about elephants or the weather. He didn’t have the mental capacity to do so. You obviously do.
The mammal was a descendant of yours.
🙂
 
👍

But apparently it doesn’t matter to supernaturalists that we don’t know everything there is to know about physical reality - they’re still certain that they know the limits of nature, to the point where they can posit a level of reality beyond it.

To (probably) paraphrase Irish comedian Dara O’Briain, science knows it doesn’t know everything - if it did, it would stop.

If there were some detectable (by any reliable and testable means!) evidence of any supernatural reality, rather than just philosophical and theological blustering about the assumed limits of scientific knowledge, then you can bet that scientists would be the first to embrace it.
Since when has science replaced philosophy? It may be a tempting prospect for materialists but then they will have to explain how science can explain in principle not only itself but everything else as well!
 
My comment applies to:
🙂
Okay, enough. Just because there’s some confusion here about the difference between the terms ‘descendent’ and ‘ancestor’ or ‘antecedent’, that’s no reason to suppose that the poster doesn’t understand what he/she is talking about…
 
Okay, enough. Just because there’s some confusion here about the difference between the terms ‘descendent’ and ‘ancestor’ or ‘antecedent’, that’s no reason to suppose that the poster doesn’t understand what he/she is talking about…
A sense of humour is essential for a happy life!
 
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