Why the Register Opposes the Death Penalty

[Ender]

Again, I am not talking about prison in general. We are obviously capable of safely housing prisoners as is seen in our supermax and death row prisoners.

Please, provide a number of death row inmates (of which there are a couple thousand in the US) who murder guards, other prisoners. Or members of the public.

I am postulating that it is zero annually.

First, the problem doesn’t involve solely those on death row or supermax prisons. The sentencing structure works down from them to everyone else in the system. Fewer murderers on death row means more living in the prison system and more released on parole, and there are a significant number of recidivist murderers.

If you have another number please share it.

Well, it isn’t zero. The number of murders committed in prisons is about 4.7/100,000 inmates. This works out to about 100 people a year. The recidivist murder rate is about 1.1%, which works out to perhaps 50 people on the outside murdered each year by people who have been in prison for one murder and released only to kill again.

So I say if we are capable of safely housing these prisoners where not one additionsl person is killed, then the risk of accidently killing someone innocently or unjustly (which we do quite frequently, or nearly do), then there should be no such penalty as it only serves 1 purpose…revenge.

Perhaps so, but in fact we cannot safely house prisoners so that they represent no threat at all to the public. Even while in prison they remain a threat.Among those charged are the alleged co-founders Perry Roark and James Sweeney. Roark, a Dundalk native who is referred to as the “supreme commander,” was charged earlier this year in another murder, days before he was to be released from a 25-year prison term. (weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/gangs/)
Ender

 

[Jon_S_1]

First, the problem doesn’t involve solely those on death row or supermax prisons. The sentencing structure works down from them to everyone else in the system. Fewer murderers on death row means more living in the prison system and more released on parole, and there are a significant number of recidivist murderers.
Well, it isn’t zero. The number of murders committed in prisons is about 4.7/100,000 inmates. This works out to about 100 people a year. The recidivist murder rate is about 1.1%, which works out to perhaps 50 people on the outside murdered each year by people who have been in prison for one murder and released only to kill again.
Perhaps so, but in fact we cannot safely house prisoners so that they represent no threat at all to the public. Even while in prison they remain a threat.Among those charged are the alleged co-founders Perry Roark and James Sweeney. Roark, a Dundalk native who is referred to as the “supreme commander,” was charged earlier this year in another murder, days before he was to be released from a 25-year prison term. (weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/gangs/)
Ender

You in no way answered the question…reread and maybe try answering the question I posed.

 

[utah_rose]

And then there are cold blooded killers like Ted Bundy who actually escaped from prison twice and ended up murdering sorority girls the first time and then kidnapping a little girl and murdering her. I think today there are a lot of vicious drug lords who murdered innocent people. This wasn’t the case 50 or so years ago.

Recently too, there have been too many paroled early and then killed again. I would like to see a law saying if someone has intentionally committed murder, if no Capitol punishment, then a life sentence and absolutely no chance of parole.

People in the California penal system such as Charles Manson still gets parole hearings! Would you like someone like him to be released?

We also need no slap on the wrist judges. im sick of hearing child murderers get light sentences and a chance of parole too. I bet these people would feel safer getting a death sentence because they will always be checking their backs because inmates have their own sense of justice.

I’m very disappointed also with the Register teaming up with the Reporter and America magazine. The wording could have been changed to from a must to a should.

 

[Ender]

You in no way answered the question…reread and maybe try answering the question I posed.

As I said, limiting the problem solely to those on death row and supermax prisons greatly understates the problem. However, given that you have asserted that there is zero possibility of people on death row or in supermax prisons killing again, I will limit my search to such an example. I assume one will be sufficient.

Ender

 

[Jon_S_1]

As I said, limiting the problem solely to those on death row and supermax prisons greatly understates the problem. However, given that you have asserted that there is zero possibility of people on death row or in supermax prisons killing again, I will limit my search to such an example. I assume one will be sufficient.

Ender

Thank you let me know what you find (from modern prisons let’s say last 25 years or so).

It is important because if we are CAPABLE of safely housing such people, then we can invest in prison reform to make a “murderers row” in which the people are completely separated from harming society again.

We currently spend 200 million dollars per execution in California. We have over 300 on death row…that’s around 6 billion dollars we can spend to reform prison systems.

 

[Ender]

Thank you let me know what you find (from modern prisons let’s say last 25 years or so).

So, if the death penalty is not necessary then murderers will naturally receive LWOP sentences instead. Here is an example of how secure we are from prisoners who have received such a sentence. All of these examples occurred within the last 10 years.
Washington state inmate sentenced to death in killing of corrections officer
Byron Scherf is a convicted rapist who already was serving life in prison when he attacked and strangled Officer Jayme Biendl (JAY’-mee BIN’-dul) in January 2011.
foxnews.com/us/2013/05/15/washington-state-inmate-sentenced-to-death-in-killing-corrections-officer/
Charles Victor Thompson, the self styled “Chuckster killer” escaped from custody in 2005 after being on death row for six years.
ccadp.proboards.com/thread/2363
Prison gang member accused of ordering a killing in Rosemead
Martinez has sat in a maximum-security cell at Pelican Bay State Prison for nearly 15 years.
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/dec/28/local/me-rosemead28
There is also the blind sheik who was being held in solitary confinement because of his attack on the WTC in 1993 yet even he was able to contact his followers and is believed to have been involved with the Luxor massacre which killed 58 people in Egypt. More significantly, as I pointed out above when there is no death row and everyone serving LWOP is in the general population - as is typically the case now - that’s the group it is alleged we are protected from.

Ender

 

[Jon_S_1]

So, if the death penalty is not necessary then murderers will naturally receive LWOP sentences instead. Here is an example of how secure we are from prisoners who have received such a sentence. All of these examples occurred within the last 10 years.
Washington state inmate sentenced to death in killing of corrections officer
Byron Scherf is a convicted rapist who already was serving life in prison when he attacked and strangled Officer Jayme Biendl (JAY’-mee BIN’-dul) in January 2011.
foxnews.com/us/2013/05/15/washington-state-inmate-sentenced-to-death-in-killing-corrections-officer/
Charles Victor Thompson, the self styled “Chuckster killer” escaped from custody in 2005 after being on death row for six years.
ccadp.proboards.com/thread/2363
Prison gang member accused of ordering a killing in Rosemead
Martinez has sat in a maximum-security cell at Pelican Bay State Prison for nearly 15 years.
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/dec/28/local/me-rosemead28
There is also the blind sheik who was being held in solitary confinement because of his attack on the WTC in 1993 yet even he was able to contact his followers and is believed to have been involved with the Luxor massacre which killed 58 people in Egypt. More significantly, as I pointed out above when there is no death row and everyone serving LWOP is in the general population - as is typically the case now - that’s the group it is alleged we are protected from.

Ender

So it is your opinion that the only way to fix problems like this is by killing someone?

What about the risk of killing the innocent?

How does this stand for the dignity of human life?

Your examples show only that prison reform is necessary, 2 of the 3 weren’t rven on death row, and the one that was didn’t kill anyone.

How many innocent lives killed through our death penalty system are acceptable to you to maintain a system that can be repaired in other ways?

 

[Jon_S_1]

While I appreciate your efforts Ender, it appears the task proved difficult based on the poor examples you found.

Especially in light of the fact that 4% of death row convictions are false convictions.

theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent

Carlos DeLuna was executed in Texas in December 1989. Subsequent investigations cast strong doubt upon DeLuna’s guilt for the murder of which he had been convicted.[17]

Jesse Tafero was convicted of murder and executed via electric chair in May 1990 in the state of Florida for the murders of two Florida Highway Patrol officers. The conviction of a co-defendant was overturned in 1992 after a recreation of the crime scene indicated a third person had committed the murders.[19]

Johnny Garrett of Texas was executed in February 1992 for allegedly raping and murdering a nun. In March 2004 cold-case DNA testing identified Leoncio Rueda as the rapist and murderer of another elderly victim killed four months earlier.[20] Immediately following the nun’s murder, prosecutors and police were certain the two cases were committed by the same assailant.[21] The flawed case is explored in a 2008 documentary entitled The Last Word.

Cameron Todd Willingham was executed in February 2004 for murdering his three young children by arson at the family home in Corsicana, Texas. Nationally known fire investigator Gerald Hurst reviewed the case documents, including the trial transcriptions and an hour-long videotape of the aftermath of the fire scene, and said in December 2004 that “There’s nothing to suggest to any reasonable arson investigator that this was an arson fire. It was just a fire.”[22] In 2010, the Innocence Project filed a lawsuit against the State of Texas, seeking a judgment of “official oppression”.[23]

In addition, more than 100 death row inmates have been later released.

 

[Ender]

So it is your opinion that the only way to fix problems like this is by killing someone?

It is my opinion that there is no perfectly safe solution, that whether we decide to execute more or none at all there will be innocent people who will die as a direct result of that decision. All I’m saying is that both choices have down sides and if you’re going to make your decision based on the threat to innocent people then it must be acknowledged that both decisions carry a threat.

What about the risk of killing the innocent?

This is a valid concern…just as the risk to the innocent from not executing people is a valid concern.

How does this stand for the dignity of human life?

This is actually the easiest question to address. This is a good explanation:*… to regard a person as deserving of punishment is implicitly to *affirm *his dignity as a human being, for it is to acknowledge that he has free will and moral responsibility, unlike a robot or a mere animal. If inflicting lesser punishments is not incompatible with human dignity and even implicitly affirms it, then given the principle of proportionality, capital punishment also can be compatible with (and indeed an affirmation of) human dignity. *(Edward Feser)

Your examples show only that prison reform is necessary, 2 of the 3 weren’t rven on death row, and the one that was didn’t kill anyone.

First, you were the one who set the conditions: death row or supermax, and the one in the supermax was being tried for murder even after being in prison for 15 years. Second, even those conditions were arbitrary and inappropriate. Clearly if there is no death row to put someone on, those people who would normally be there will be in normal prisons serving LWOP, just as they are today, and so the murder of a guard by a prisoner serving a life term is relevant to the problem.

How many innocent lives killed through our death penalty system are acceptable to you to maintain a system that can be repaired in other ways?

We can start with the numbers we know, and the first number is that there are zero cases where an innocent person is known to have been executed since 1973. There are a number of cases where it is alleged that an innocent person was executed, but even the most ardent anti-capital punishment organizations can’t come up with more than about eight solid possibilities. Worst case that works out to about one innocent death every five years.

Now, what do we know about the death of innocents at the hands of recidivist killers? Based on BJS statistics there are on average 40-50 murders a year committed by killers paroled from prison after having already killed once. There are also about 100 murders a year committed in prisons. You can do the math: where is the bigger risk?

Ender

 

[Ender]

While I appreciate your efforts Ender, it appears the task proved difficult based on the poor examples you found.

My examples satisfied your exact criteria. I provided cases where a person on death row escaped from prison and where a prisoner in a supermax was complicit in a murder.*We are obviously capable of safely housing prisoners as is seen in our supermax and death row prisoners…I am postulating that it is zero annually. *

Especially in light of the fact that 4% of death row convictions are false convictions.

This is a new assertion not relevant to your original one. One thing at a time.

Ender

 

[pnewton]

The answer to “murderers who order murders from prison” is not to kill them…it is to change the prisons.

That is a problem. Unless we have a constitutional amendment to change the wording forbidding cruel and unusual punishment, the expansion of this right by case law does not allow the possibility of isolation. Even if it did, human error and weakness would still allow some communication.

 

[Nihilist]

ncregister.com/blog/jdemelo/why-the-register-opposes-the-death-penalty

This comment sums up my feelings as well:

Would you be willing to publish descriptions of the crimes committed that got those folks on death row?
I think if people read that, they would be able to make a more considered decision.
Lastly I would like to point out that the death penalty is already very rare. A very small percentage of convicted murderers are executed. Probably about the same number who murder again while they are actually in prison.

I believe ‘withholding’ the death penalty is actually a more oppressive form of punishment. At least capital punishment gives a murderer the possibility of atoning, and final freedom (cf. Kant). It is worse to keep someone in prison, to keep them poor, powerless, and ultimately, ‘guilty’.

 

[Cathoholic]

Just a few months ago we were discussing WHY is was inappropriate for the Register to come out with the statement concerning the capital punishment issue (especially considering the coauthor situation).

It was suggested that the prisons in this country are capable of “safely housing” people.

But of course the Catholic teaching regarding this issue isn’t merely about “this country”.

Recently, we have since seen that “capable” or not, the prison system has not been “safe”.

---

We have seen Richard W. Matt and David Sweat both victims of their own misdeeds (not to mention the staff harmfully brought into the situation) resulting in death to Matt himself and Sweat being shot.

(See NY Times article here for summary of the Matt and Sweat escape and Matt death)

**Recall What The Church Teaches . . . **

And remember, the Church doesn’t just say people in these situations of dealings with unjust aggressors, merely ONLY need to be protected from “death”.

It teaches they need protection from “HARM” too.

Excerpt from CCC 2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. . . .

As was mentioned earlier in the thread. The guards are part of the “common good” not to mention even the prisoners themselves.

I think we all agree that Matt and Sweat caused a lot of “harm.”

(Incidentally. I am not arguing that Matt and Sweat should have been subjected to capital punishment when they were found guilty of their heinous crimes and eventually placed in this “Maximum Security” prison initially [nor am I saying here they should not have been subject to capital punishment]. I am merely highlighting the danger and complexities of these situations).

Several days ago . . . .

Just several days ago we get another reminder about how prisoners are in a very dangerous situation (not to mention the guards and the public at large if there is an escape).

Bold and underline mine (and note the stats cited in the article are not “national statistics” but merely numbers for the STATE of California)

Inmate was nearly cut in two, missing organs after California prison riot

Published July 11, 2015 Associated Press

SACRAMENTO, Calif. – Nearly 15 hours after a riot at a Northern California prison, guards found a missing inmate sawed nearly in two, with his abdominal organs and most chest organs removed, his body folded and stuffed into a garbage can in a shower stall a few doors from his cell.

. . . . The grisly discovery raises obvious questions about the prison’s security: How could such a gruesome killing happen inside a locked facility with security and surveillance? How could someone obtain weapons sharp enough to dissect a body? And why did it take so long to uncover?

Homicides are distressingly common in California prisons. More than 160 inmates have been killed in the last 15 years, and the state has one of the nation’s highest inmate homicide rates.

. . … Rodriguez’s missing organs are “still part of the investigation” at the prison . . . .

. . . . No one has been charged with killing Rodriguez, an Oakland man who was serving an eight-year robbery sentence from Alameda County. However, Thornton said his cellmate, a 46-year-old man serving a life sentence for a Los Angeles County murder, is considered the only suspect and is being held in segregation. . . .

(The whole story at Fox News here)

*Continued on next post *. . .

 

[Saint_Frank]

I believe ‘withholding’ the death penalty is actually a more oppressive form of punishment. At least capital punishment gives a murderer the possibility of atoning, and final freedom (cf. Kant). It is worse to keep someone in prison, to keep them poor, powerless, and ultimately, ‘guilty’.

Great point. I find it rather ironic that anti-death penalty people often accuse pro-death penalty people of being “bloodthirsty” while they go on about how much more of a punishment it is to keep people locked up and isolated. Apparently psychological torture for the rest of their lives is fine and dandy, but a bullet in the head (what I wish they would use and stop playing around with lethal injection silliness) is too much and “inhumane”.

Personally, I support the death penalty 100%. Ancient Israel didn’t have a problem with it and were commanded by God to use it, even Jesus didn’t speak out about it (and He was a victim of it!) and the Church had no problems with the authorities carrying it out for over a millenia. In fact, I’d like to see the death penalty expanded for more crimes and for the process to be streamlined and not take decades. I’m well-aware of the deep depravity that some “humans” fall into and inflict on others, so I’m past the point of wanting the death penalty done away with. Some people are just demons masquerading as humans so I hesitate to even refer to them as a member of the human species. It’s not even about being a deterrent to me. It’s about justice.

 

[Cathoholic]

**And as stated above, the Church’s teachings are not ONLY for the USA. . . . **

(CNN, USA Today, and AllAfrica articles below bold and ul mine)

After ‘El Chapo’ escape, Mexico offers reward for fugitive drug lord’s capture

By Catherine E. Shoichet, Holly Yan and Ashley Fantz, CNN

Updated 11:18 PM ET, Mon July 13, 2015

(CNN) Mexico’s most notorious drug lord now has one more nefarious title: serial prison escapee.

Authorities are scrambling to find Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman after his stunning escape from a maximum-security prison west of Mexico City. . . . .

. . . U.S. officials are livid about Guzman’s escape. When he was arrested in Mexico last year, the United States asked to have him extradited, in part because of concerns of a prison escape.

“This is exactly why we argued for his extradition,” a U.S. law enforcement official said, adding that the escape shows “the strength of the cartel and his ability to pay people off.”
“If this guy can get out of prison, it shows how deep the corruption is there,” the official said.

The Mexican official who spoke with CNN on Monday **bristled at that claim, noting that two murderers recently escaped from a New York prison. . . . **

(The whole story can be read from CNN here)

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Mexican drug kingpin ‘El Chapo’ escapes from prison (again)

Bart Jansen and Greg Toppo, USA TODAY 8:21 a.m. EDT July 13, 2015

A notorious Mexican drug kingpin who escaped once before from prison — and spent more than a decade on the lam — has done it again.

This time, Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman disappeared down a hole near his cell and walked nearly a mile underground to freedom, triggering a massive manhunt Sunday.

Guzman wielded so much power as head of the Sinaloa drug cartel that the Chicago Crime Commission called him Public Enemy No. 1, a label applied to gangster Al Capone in 1930.

Guzman, 56, escaped late Saturday from Mexico’s Altiplano maximum-security prison. . .

. . . . The cartel is a key player in a drug war that has ravaged parts of Mexico for years and cost thousands of lives. . . . .

(The whole story can be read from USA Today here)

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**13 July 2015

Kenya: Three British Terror Suspects, Two Others Escape From Bungoma Prison**

By Raphael Wanjala

Five prisoners, including two Britons being held on suspicion of having links with terror groups, have escaped from the Bungoma Prison in the past week under unknown circumstances.

Two of the prisoners escaped the facility on Sunday evening while another three, who were British nationals, escaped earlier in the week.

The officer in charge of the Bungoma Prison, Mr Henry Ochieng, said the two who escaped on Sunday were capital offenders . . . .

(The whole story can be read from AllAfrica here)

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These sad events and news stories, are timely reminders that the Church teaches what it does concerning this issue, for good reasons. The teachings of the Church transcend time and cultures.

CCC 2267a Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means . . . .

 

[Jon_S_1]

So your answer to humanely solve a guard corruption issue is to execute people??

You state that we should execute people like swain so they don’t escape and suffer by being shot?

These discussions sadden me.

You really think that there are zero alternatives to prison reform other than to kill people.

It’s barbaric

It’s unjust as a tremendous amount are wrongly accused. (The real issue)

The only people still using this are the communists and the Muslims. We can and should be better.

As for the statement that “ancient Israel” used it, perhaps one should ask why Israel and Jews in general do not use the death penalty instead of hijacking their religion to promote something so heinous.

 

[Ender]

So your answer to humanely solve a guard corruption issue is to execute people??

One of the unfortunate effects of the church’s new teaching on capital punishment is that it focuses solely on protection. That is, it makes it seem as if the only concern we need have is whether our actions make us safer or not. This is not a particularly sound basis for making moral decisions.

2276 is fairly explicit on this point: capital punishment may be used “*when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.” *It doesn’t say it has to be just, only that it be deemed necessary for protection. What, then, is your basis for opposing the execution of people who represent a threat?

Let me point out that this is not my position. The argument, however, does seem to flow from the conditions set out by 2267.

You really think that there are zero alternatives to prison reform other than to kill people.

According to 2267 our primary concern is with our own safety. Executing more people would clearly contribute to our protection, so again: what is the basis for your objection?

It’s barbaric

The church unapologetically supported the use of capital punishment for nearly her entire existence. Her current opposition arose only in the last half century, and even now she accepts its use in certain circumstances. Is her support barbaric as well?

It’s unjust as a tremendous amount are wrongly accused.

That is not a question of justice but of competence, nor is the number of those wrongly convicted of murder as high as you appear to believe.

Ender

 

[Jon_S_1]

Ender,

We’ve gone round before. No need to again.

For the benefit of folks that might view the thread I will simply state.

One person being killed while innocent is one person too many, as even Ender would believe all though he may want is to believe he wouldn’t mind it. Yeah right.

The death penalty with all its flaws and abuses today and throughout history is a corruption of the good.

It trades a valuing of human life for vengeance and forgiveness for retribution.

It is neither just not necessary.

 

[Matilda_Bennett]

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**
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