Why the RLDS Restoration branches reject the King Follet sermon

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But, that doesn’t change the fact that your church believes in a trinity of three completely separate ‘gods’ that make up a ‘godhead’, that are only ‘one in purpose’.
You err. They are also one in mind and will.

According to the The Title Page of Book of Mormon, written by Nephi,, the Book of Mormon is intended “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations…”
You were the one that seemed to be taunting us because no one responded to your claim that JS never told his followers to ‘worship’ more than one god, as if that nullified the possibility of LDS being polytheistic
Nope. I haven’t taken up that argument except to say that in some respects, we probably look polytheistic to you, just as some of you look polytheistic to some Jews, and in other respects to us as well. As when Rebecca complains that we don’t pray equally to all three members of the Godhead. Like we’re going to tick off the Holy Ghost by paying too much attention to the Father. 😃 That sounds more like Pagan Roman mythology to me than what I’ve known and come to respect as Catholicism. Or like a Catholic lady once who told me that she didn’t believe in Christ, but only believed in Christ’s mother. :confused: I guess every religion has its oddballs.

No, if you go back and pay attention to the argument that you were responding to, I wasn’t talking about Polytheism; I was talking specifically about Deuteronomy’s license to kill false prophets.

Do I have to quote it back to you?
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Soren1:
Originally Posted by soren1
Where in this text [Deuteronomy] does it say that the prophet or dreamer of dreams must be speaking “officially” when he says “let us go after other gods”?
I responded to Soren:
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PETE:
Oh! sorry for being slow to understand where your concern was coming.

Hold your horses, Soren, and put down your torch. Your Deuteronomical license to kill has not been invoked.

The key word here is “go after.”

At no place in the King Follet speculations does Joseph Smith remotely suggest that we should “go after,” i.e. worship, other Gods.

Think about it.

There are Old Testament prophets that said things that are at best agnostic as to the existence of other Gods. The emphasis was simply that God is the only god worthy of worship. Mind you, I don’t believe that Baal or Moloch or Ishtar actually existed; I simply think that having the mere opinion that such monsters had some intangible existence, is NOT the same thing as idolatry. You’re imposing Catholic norms on scriptures to which such norms did not apply. The OT, and even the NT, do not speak of heresy, i.e. having the wrong opinion, as some sort of ultimate evil. The evil warned of was actually worshiping those false gods, or carving their likenesses, or otherwise leading others in worship of those false gods.
Then you jumped into the discussion waving Websters’ dictionary on “polytheism” which has absolutely nothing to do with the issue.

I really could not care less if you think that Joseph Smith was “polytheistic.” :rolleyes: Knock yourself out. But since my parents are missionaries in the Congo, I strongly object to any argument that suggests that Deuteronomy requires the murder of Mormon missionaries. I don’t think that’s what Soren was trying to say, or even that he was aware that it implied that. Please connect the dots. (1) If, as most of you assume, Joseph Smith’s KFD is representative of LDS doctrine, and (2) Deuteronomy’s “kill folks that take you after false gods” applies to the KFD, then aren’t you essentially saying that Deuteronomy requires the murder of Mormon missionaries?

Yet another reason for me to be nervous about proselytizing here. (/jk)

But seriously, I think that most of you simply haven’t thought your arguments out to their logical extent. I reckon that most of you will find a way to say that no, it doesn’t mean kill mormon missionaries. 👍
 
Do you pray to the Holy Ghost, Rebecca?
Yes.
It’s funny that some of you call us “polytheistic,” and yet you complain to us about not praying separately to each person of the Godhead.
It is Catholic doctrine that God hears our prayers. God is One Being, Three Persons. Not three beings, three persons. So yes, God hears our prayers.

[BIBLEDRB]John 14:7-14[/BIBLEDRB]

Also, Mormons reading this as Jesus saying to pray in His name as a separate concept of praying to Jesus, is wholly a Mormon concept. No one else thinks this way. This verse clearly says, pray to God in Jesus name. Since we only worship God, of course, the only logical conclusion is Jesus IS GOD.

As to your questions about when I was LDS, no, I never had any concept or idea that I was ever praying to or petitioning Jesus. Mormon hymns just being a nice thing that is said about Jesus, not actually praying to Him…because you don’t pray to Jesus. Ever. It is clearly taught to LDS that only the Father is prayed to and only the Father is called God.

Never does a Mormon begin a prayer with “Lord Jesus”…speaking to Him directly.

Mormons never look like their worshipping to me. That is not a criticism, just an observation. I admit that could be my experience, and not that of others. But I will say, many LDS who convert to Christianity (not just Catholicism) comment on the joy of worshipping Jesus, which was never experienced before.

As for “sending good vibes”, it is a comparison to the time I was atheist (which was far longer than the time I was Mormon or have been Catholic.) Atheists will never say, of course, “I’ll pray for you”, but they will say general things like, “sending good vibes your way”. It seems to me Mormons are doing the same thing with Jesus, for example, a Mormon would never say, “I’ll pray to our Lord Jesus Christ for you.”, or, “Pray to Jesus”. So, from my own experience, the attitude appears the same, both Mormons and atheists will not pray to Jesus, and make sure that you know it.

In my own conversion to Christ, it was a very defining moment, the first time I prayed to Jesus, asking Him to help me.
 
As when Rebecca complains that we don’t pray equally to all three members of the Godhead. Like we’re going to tick off the Holy Ghost by paying too much attention to the Father. 😃
I never implied any such thing. Don’t mischaracterize what I said, you may think it is clever, but it is just a form of dishonesty.
 
No, if you go back and pay attention to the argument that you were responding to, I wasn’t talking about Polytheism; I was talking specifically about Deuteronomy’s license to kill false prophets.

I really could not care less if you think that Joseph Smith was “polytheistic.” :rolleyes: Knock yourself out. But since my parents are missionaries in the Congo, I strongly object to any argument that suggests that Deuteronomy requires the murder of Mormon missionaries. I don’t think that’s what Soren was trying to say, or even that he was aware that it implied that. Please connect the dots. (1) If, as most of you assume, Joseph Smith’s KFD is representative of LDS doctrine, and (2) Deuteronomy’s “kill folks that take you after false gods” applies to the KFD, then aren’t you essentially saying that Deuteronomy requires the murder of Mormon missionaries?

Yet another reason for me to be nervous about proselytizing here. (/jk)

But seriously, I think that most of you simply haven’t thought your arguments out to their logical extent. I reckon that most of you will find a way to say that no, it doesn’t mean kill mormon missionaries. 👍
Why the histrionics over Deuteronomy? Do you require some smelling salts dear?
 
. Like we’re going to tick off the Holy Ghost by paying too much attention to the Father. 😃
RebeccaJ;8331423:
I never implied any such thing. Don’t mischaracterize what I said, you may think it is clever, but it is just a form of dishonesty.
I see it as a reflection of the low regard the Holy Spirit generally has within LDS thinking. You can have a gathering of people supposedly gifted with the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and yet He is chased away by trivial human foibles like irreverent children or incorrect music choices.
 
I see it as a reflection of the low regard the Holy Spirit generally has within LDS thinking. You can have a gathering of people supposedly gifted with the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and yet He is chased away by trivial human foibles like irreverent children or incorrect music choices.
Makes sense, I mean, the connection that you see. Though, it requires venturing in non sequiturs, but that is turning out to not be so unusual in the latest LDS threads.
 
I never implied any such thing. Don’t mischaracterize what I said, you may think it is clever, but it is just a form of dishonesty.
Nice try. Do you need me to quote me back to yourself again?
 
I see it as a reflection of the low regard the Holy Spirit generally has within LDS thinking. You can have a gathering of people supposedly gifted with the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and yet He is chased away by trivial human foibles like irreverent children or incorrect music choices.
Sure, zaff. Evil mormon children chase away the holy ghost. :dts:. Do you reckon that’s because we don’t baptize them young enough, or because we don’t beat them enough? :dts: Any other brilliant theories?

Oh, and Zaff – if we’re really as horrible and vicious as you and Rebecca would have everyone believe, then why are the Catholic church leaders so reserved and positives in their descriptions of the mormon people?
 
When you teach your children they need to be reverent in order for the Holy Ghost to be present and reveal things to them, does it follow that irreverence scares the Holy Ghost off? (Serious question.)
 
Sure, zaff. Evil mormon children chase away the holy ghost. :dts:. Do you reckon that’s because we don’t baptize them young enough, or because we don’t beat them enough? :dts: Any other brilliant theories?

Oh, and Zaff – if we’re really as horrible and vicious as you and Rebecca would have everyone believe, then why are the Catholic church leaders so reserved and positives in their descriptions of the mormon people?
Where did I say or even imply that LDS are horrible and vicious? More histrionics on your part?
 
I see no reason to trust anything he’s said
Please quote where I asked you to trust the teachings of our prophets.
All I’ve done is clarify what they have taught, versus what Evangelicals-in-Catholic-clothing claim that they’ve taught.
 
Please quote where I asked you to trust the teachings of our prophets.
All I’ve done is clarify what they have taught, versus what Evangelicals-in-Catholic-clothing claim that they’ve taught.
You are the one who brought up the “burger analogy”, if you want to run away from it now that’s okay.🤷
 
Please quote where I asked you to trust the teachings of our prophets.
All I’ve done is clarify what they have taught, versus what Evangelicals-in-Catholic-clothing claim that they’ve taught.
You seem to be of the opinion that anyone on this forum that disagrees with you, or that posts any facts or arguments (as in the form of debate) regarding your LDS faith for the purpose of refuting them as incorrect, for some reason has to be “Evangelicals-in-Catholic-clothing”. You don’t seem to want to believe that we could possibly be true Catholics, especially not anyone that claims to be a former Mormon. You constantly denigrate anyone that makes valid points that you can’t find a way to refute, so you engage in sophomoric responses, or you give backhanded ‘compliments’ that are just disguised insults.

This is a Catholic forum. Here’s a big surprise for you, most of us here are Catholic. Those who are not, usually state their religion on their profile, even atheists. Just because this it the Non-Catholic section of the forum, that doesn’t mean that only non-Catholics are allowed to post here. It’s just a section where most threads are focused on topics where non-Catholics have questions about, or would like to discuss, certain topics of Christian belief in order to try and see it from the Catholic perspective. Expecting us to ignore all of the things that we disagree on, or not to give our point of view as honestly as we can, is pretty foolish.

Most people are here for an honest discussion of faith. If you can’t bring yourself to do that, or allow others to do it without name-calling, then maybe you shouldn’t engage in some of those discussions. Accusing others of being dishonest, certainly won’t make you look any more sincere in your own posts. Some of your manipulations of other people’s posts, might even be seen as a sign of that insincerity.

I think someone in a previous post might have been right when they referred to your “LDS persecution complex”. It’s something that I’ve seen mentioned by others about Mormons in the past, and, I’ve witnessed it, myself, on other forums, too. It seems that you’ve recently made several posts that reflect that kind of thinking, especially in your claim that anyone here would ever suggest that Mormon missionaries should be killed as false prophets. That was completely uncalled for, and unwarranted. No one here has ever made any comment that would even suggest such a horrible thing! :mad:
 
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Oh! sorry for beingslow to understand where your concern was coming.

Hold your horses, Soren, and put down your torch. Your Deuteronomical license to kill has notbeen invoked. 😃
From the mockery that you begin your post with (those faces are laughing at me, right?), it is hard to tell if you intend a real argument with the point about the “Deuteronomical license to kill.” Are you saying that these verse can have no modern application because the law enjoining the execution of false prophets is not enforcible now? With no better indication, I will assume that this is your intention and respond accordingly.

To make one precision at the outset, I should note that “license to kill” does not accurately describe this provision in the Deuteronomic code; rather the text is about an obligation to kill. To refrain from slaying a false prophet under the Old Law was a transgression, for the whole law carries imperative force and the present text says quite pointedly: “So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.”(13:4)

Now, one does not need to believe the Deut 13:1-4 should or even can be enforced to the letter in the New Covenant to see that it carries theological implications that do retain their validity. I do not assume that the Law is now in effect and take up a torch (or a stone in those days). In fact, because the judicial precepts of the law were fulfilled by Christ on the cross, it is not only unnecessary, but mortally sinful to enforce them today, since that would amount to a denial of the work of the cross.

But we don’t have to practice the Old Law to learn from it. What my argument does assume is that the Law is holy. That is, however uncomfortable this may make us feel, Israel had a real obligation to execute false prophets according to the standard of Deut 13:1-4; this was a fair and enforceable provision that protected them from evil as God prepared Israel for the messiah to come. What this means is that Deut 13:1-4 gives a correct account of how one can know a false prophet. For if it were otherwise, the Law would be providing an unjust standard, contrary to its own holiness, and would not live up to its purpose in protecting Israel from evil.
The key word here is “go after.”
“Go after” translates the Hebrew halakh, which in its broadest connotation just means “walk.” But it also has a specifically cultic meaning which operates in this context. It refers to walking as a metaphor for living one’s whole life according to the Torah, “to walk with the Lord,” “to walk in his ways,” and so forth. That is why the Israelites spoke of the way in which a person or group interpreted and obeyed the Law as thier "halakhah,” which means “walking.”

This cultic meaning of halakh figures in the present text because God compares the *halakhah *of the false prophet to the halakhah of the Lord. Hence he says, “You shall walk (halakh) after the Lord your God” (13:4) rather than “go after” a false prophet. This implies that the contrast between the hearing of a false prophet and following the true God is a contrast between two totally different, separate ways of life. Those ways can be distinguished by the comparing the identity of the god professed by the prophet to the God who has indeed revealed himself to Israel. One does not need to enforce the stoning of false prophets to understand the transcendent character of this teaching. Your emphasis on that relatively accidental aspect of the text is a pure distraction.

[Note: One does not actually need to advert to Hebrew to see this in the English text, because in the early modern English of the King James Bible, as in Shakespeare, “go” and “walk” mean the same thing. Thus, from the English alone, you can compare “go after” and “walk after” directly]
At no place in the King Follet speculations does Joseph Smith remotely suggest that we should “go after,” i.e.worship, other Gods.
KFD does talk about worship. In fact, for Smith, his claims about God’s nature pertain directly to the propriety of authentic worship and to the identity of God himself, as he is worshipped. He says:

When we begin to learn in this way, we begin to learn the only true God, and what kind of a being we have got to worship.

Note the force of “have got.” Smith places imperative necessity on worshipping “the only true God.” Further, he sees that understanding “what kind of being” God is necessary to worship him properly. Thus, if we are wrong about the kind of God we must worship, we are also wrong about which individual God we worship. (Individuality, after all, is predicated upon nature: I cannot say which individual man a person is, unless I have first established that he is indeed a man.) Thus Smith says we “have got” to worship an exalted man because that is part of knowing the true God. Can the text really be read otherwise? If Smith turned out to be incorrect on that, then by his own reasoning, he would have taught error about who is the true God, and which god deserves worship. That is sufficient to bring Deut 13:1-4 to bear on his case.

(continued)
 
There are Old Testament prophets that said things that are at best agnostic as to the existence of other Gods. The emphasis was simply that God is the only god worthy of worship. Mind you, I don’t believe that Baal or Moloch or Ishtar actually existed; I simply think that having the mere opinion that such monsters had some intangible existence, is NOT the same thing as idolatry. You’re imposing Catholic norms on scriptures to which such norms did not apply.
I think the false gods in scripture existed, but it doesn’t matter. It is just as idolatrous to worship a nonexistent false god as a real one. Either places one on a path different from that of God. Since the question of true worship is in play in both the KFD and Deut 13:1-4, this is a point of agreement between myself and Joseph Smith.
The OT, and even the NT, do not speak of heresy, i.e. having the wrong opinion, as some sort of ultimate evil.
Heresy does NOT mean having the wrong opinion, and no Catholic theologian, pope, or council, has ever claimed so. I am unaware of a single Christian theologian who has ever thought that. Rather, heresy is clearly distinguished from mere error in opinion. Heresy, as a sin, is an error in the will of man, not the intellect. It is not defined by intellectual stumbling, but intellectual stubbornness. A person is a heretic when he clings to an error after it has been revealed to him by clear reasoning and competent authority. When he does so, he refues to pbey the Lord “with all your mind” and thus defies a central commandment of the Law. To clarify further, Catholic theology distinguishes between “material heresy” and “formal heresy.” Any person is a heretic materially who ignorantly believes something at odss with the faith, but is unaware of the fact. Such persons are not morally culpable, and this kind of “heresy” is not a sin. A formal heretic is one whose error has been confronted and has chosen willfully to disbelieve Scripture or the Church.

In this sense, Scripture condemns heresy often, whenever it speaks against unbelief. Some specific heresy are pointed out, like the Judaizing heresy in Galatians. The New Testament uses the term “hairesis,” the Greek word for “division,” nine times, and that is precisely what “heresy” indicates: a man-made division in the beliefs and practices in the Church. This is what St. Peter speaks of when he writes:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet 2:1)

It is of heresy such as Peter describes, and attributes specifically to false prophets, that we find an example in the King Follett Discourse.
The evil warned of was actually worshiping those false gods, or carving their likenesses, or otherwise leading others in worship of those false gods.
As we have seen from discussion of halakhah, to follow a false prophets is to embrace an entire course of life separate from that of God, this extends to all things including, and especially, worship.
PRECISELY. So where in the world do you see JS “professing WORSHIP” of any different deity in the Kentucky-Fried Doctrines, pardon, the King Follet Discourse?
Kentucky Fried Doctrines? I thought your laughing faces were insulting, but now I see you are even less respectful of your own prophet than of me. If you want us to take Mormonism seriously, show us that you take it seriously. Surely there are popes I don’t admire, and even encyclicals I don’t agree with, but I have never seen any need to distance myself from them with such flippant disregard.
And if Smith’s supposed speculations in the KFD really were supposed to affect our worship, then why the heck did the LDS church not even hear of the KFD until nearly a century after the KFD was delivered? When BH Roberts went off and published someone’s old notes on the KFD, out of his own pocket, without church authorization?
This is historically false. The KFD was published in Times and Seasons and the Millenial Star. It also appears as the first sermon in Vol 6 of the Journal of Discourses, which was the most widely circulated LDS publication of the day, considered by Apostles to be among the “standard works” of that time. Of course, “standard work” did not mean scripture as it does now, but their use of the term does show that the views with JOD (and the other two publications) as authentic measuring sticks of orthodox Mormon orthodoxy. To state that the church did not know of the discourse until B.H Roberts resurrected it, is to miss the mark by decades, since Roberts was born in 1857 and Vol. 6 of the JOD went to press in 1858.
So please, put your torch down and back away from the stake. 😃
This is the second time you have referred to torches, I supposeto compare me to Catohlics who have burned heretics. This is not an apt joke. First, it dwells on the totally false assumption that my argument from Deuteronomy implies a mandate for the actual execution of modern false prophets. We have seen why this is false; it focuses on an accidental feature of the text and excludes its essential teaching.

Yet that is your least serious error. Worse, the comparison to heretic-burning disrespects scripture. Mormonism holds firmly that the political use of Church power to punish heretics was a mark of a complete apostasy in the church. That means stake-burning is an objective moral evil. Fair enough, but is the punishment of false prophets in Deut 13:1-4 objectively evil as well? If you think it is not, then the comparison is pointless. If you think it is, then you have implicitly denied the holiness of the Law, by comparing Moses’ teachings to a moral atrocity. Do you really want to go that way?
 
Where did I say or even imply that LDS are horrible and vicious? More histrionics on your part?
No; I totally misunderstood what you said about LDS children and the silly old biddies that complain about noisy children “driving out” the Holy Ghost.

What they should say is that they are distracted from their own worship when church is noisy. And a non-distracting atmosphere is important. You Catholics are better at creating a reverent atmosphere. I really do like those little padded things that allow people to kneel in prayer right in mass. I wish we had them.

I apologize for misunderstanding you, Zaff. I’d have apologized earlier, but I was suspended for 30 days.
 
I think the false gods in scripture existed,
Wouldn’t that make you a “polytheist” according to that webster-dude who keeps trying to turn this into a discussion on polytheism? 😃
but it doesn’t matter.
I agree that polytheism doesn’t matter. The issue in Deut 13 isn’t whether you beleive theoretically that other gods might exist, but whether you actually WORSHIP any God other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Heresy does NOT mean having the wrong opinion, and no Catholic theologian, pope, or council, has ever claimed so. I am unaware of a single Christian theologian who has ever thought that. Rather, heresy is clearly distinguished from mere error in opinion. Heresy, as a sin, is an error in the will of man, not the intellect. It is not defined by intellectual stumbling, but intellectual stubbornness. A person is a heretic when he clings to an error after it has been revealed to him by clear reasoning and competent authority. When he does so, he refues to pbey the Lord “with all your mind” and thus defies a central commandment of the Law.
I’m quite sure that you’re wrong on that. The accurate statement is that first time heretics weren’t traditionally put to death. A second offense was considered “Stubborn” or “willful” heresy, and that’s when the Inquisition invoked the death penalty for heresy.

What you say may be the standard today, but that’s clearly not it was historically.

Do you have any evidence that the Catholic church ever confronted Joseph Smith about his opinions? Then by your standards, how can you call him an heretic?
Kentucky Fried Doctrines? I thought your laughing faces were insulting, but now I see you are even less respectful of your own prophet than of me. If you want us to take Mormonism seriously, show us that you take it seriously.
I’d rather you not take us seriously, than make false accusations against us that seem likely to get someone murdered.
Surely there are popes I don’t admire, and even encyclicals I don’t agree with, but I have never seen any need to distance myself from them with such flippant disregard.
I am exquisitely uncomfortable with the 2nd half of D&C 132, but you’d never hear me refer to it as I did the KFD. The difference is that Section 132 is claimed as official prophesy. JS never made such a claim for the KFD, and if he spoke as a man, then it’s perfectly appropriate for me to mock when someone tries to cast the KFD as canonized scripture.
It also appears as the first sermon in Vol 6 of the Journal of Discourses, which was the most widely circulated LDS publication of the day, considered by Apostles to be among the “standard works” of that time. Of course, “standard work” did not mean scripture as it does now
I’m glad you added that last phrase, because otherwise I’d probably have said something to get myself suspended again or permanently banned. The JoD as standard works? God help us all. :eek:
orthodox Mormon orthodoxy.
😃
This is the second time you have referred to torches, I supposeto compare me to Catohlics who have burned heretics.
I’m sorry that you have such a low opinion of your church to make the leap from torches to Catholicism. That saddens me, Soren. The fact is that even your Spanish Inquisition saved more people from being burned to death by secular authorities, than it ever condemned. Brother Alonzo Salazar y Frias (cruelly libeled as “the witches’ advocate”) is a great hero of mine, and brought then-unprecedented standards of rationality into the trial process.
This is not an apt joke. First, it dwells on the totally false assumption that my argument from Deuteronomy implies a mandate for the actual execution of modern false prophets.
It’s not a “joke” at all. :mad: I have parents on a mission in the Congo; they’ve seen people murdered by stoning, and I fear for their lives when people post vicious distortions of scripture which seem likely to incite murder.

My laughter wasn’t mocking, it was nervous. I have seen Orthodox Jews and even one Conservative Jew use that Deut 13 scripture to justify threatening murder against a Jewish woman that was converting to Catholicism. Their interpretation was as wrong as yours, even though I believe you when you say that you did not mean to incite murder.
, but is the punishment of false prophets in Deut 13:1-4 objectively evil as well? If you think it is not, then the comparison is pointless.
It wasn’t back then, when those that led Israel astray took them into cults which practiced human sacrifice. It seems obvious from context that it wasn’t intended to apply to Jews that converted to Catholicism or to Catholics who converted to the LDS church.
If you think it is, then you have implicitly denied the holiness of the Law, by comparing Moses’ teachings to a moral atrocity. Do you really want to go that way?
Nope. Back when Moses said it, that was simple self-defense against the atrocities of the local human-sacrificing pagans.

But if your only argument for the capital punishment part to not apply today is that Jesus did away with all that, aren’t you tacitly saying that Jews, not believing in Christ, should apply Deut 13 to put to death Jews who convert to Catholicism? Are you sure that you want to go that way?
 
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