N
Newnews
Guest
Please elaborate on what you mean about the Father being the source ?
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J
JimG
Guest
The theology of the Trinity views the Divine Word (second Person of the Trinity) as God “speaking” his own self-knowledge. Because God (the Father) knows himself perfectly, he generates a perfect ‘idea’ of himself, perfect self-knowledge. His expression of his knowledge of himself lacks nothing. Everything that is in the Father is in the Word–even Personhood. It is this eternal self-knowledge that generates the Son.
It is not creation, because it is simply the operation of the divine essence, existing for all eternity, and timeless.
The love expressed between the Father and Son, also expressed perfectly and infinitely, also does not lack personhood–it is the Holy Spirit, co-equal and co-eternal with Father & Son.
In this sense, the Persons of the Trinity can be seen as the perfect expression of the operation of the divine intellect and the divine will.
D
devas
Guest
Trinity my view
Let me introduce myself as a born and practicing Christian- (Roman) Catholic from India- south most tip of India – Tamil nadu- Capcomerin.
I believe in Christ, Bible - and in Church…
From Time immemorial, man always wanted, to know and understand THE GOD.
THE GOD, the super being, cannot be measured, counted or contained- so the questions of why three and why not four persons etc., are not relevant.
But the concept of TRINITY, as church teaches, is for our understanding of THE GOD better and makes us, the individual, to perceive THE GOD easily
The concept of Holy Trinity is the best, possibly, the only way to achieve that.
Having said that let me put my thought on THE GOD and Holy Trinity in perspective.
THE GOD, The Supreme Being is Omni potent, Omni present, most merciful, most …… (All the superlative words which a human being cannot comprehend.), manifests to us in the following ways:
• In the beginning God…… (Gen 1:001) – The Father first person of The Holy Trinity
• … and the Word was with God, (John 1:001) (the Word- Power- energy- sprit,-the Holy Sprit,) The third person … …
• And the Word was made flesh (John 1:014) (the matter- the perishable- God in the form of human body- The Christ) The Second person … …
The Father maker of heaven and earth, seen and unseen … is common to all mankind… to all… the good, the bad, the able, the disable, of all races, colour or caste….is The God for all mankind.
The Son, The Saviour, the way and the truth and the life… (John 14:6) as a High Priest ( as St. Paul calls him) leads us, the faithful, towards THE GOD, is the God for all those who believe him and follow him, the Christians.
The Holy Sprit, the comforter… the giver of life… Resides in us and prompts, helps the individual to communicate and to know and understand THE GOD, is a God to me, the individual.
To know, to understand, to reach THE GOD, We should
• Accept with thanks our being in this world as created by The God The Father
• Follow the life and teachings of The God the Son meticulously
• Meditate and communicate with the help of The God the Holy Spirit in us
THE GOD alone can make HIM known to us by revealing HIMSELF to us.
Regards
Dev
Let me introduce myself as a born and practicing Christian- (Roman) Catholic from India- south most tip of India – Tamil nadu- Capcomerin.
I believe in Christ, Bible - and in Church…
From Time immemorial, man always wanted, to know and understand THE GOD.
THE GOD, the super being, cannot be measured, counted or contained- so the questions of why three and why not four persons etc., are not relevant.
But the concept of TRINITY, as church teaches, is for our understanding of THE GOD better and makes us, the individual, to perceive THE GOD easily
The concept of Holy Trinity is the best, possibly, the only way to achieve that.
Having said that let me put my thought on THE GOD and Holy Trinity in perspective.
THE GOD, The Supreme Being is Omni potent, Omni present, most merciful, most …… (All the superlative words which a human being cannot comprehend.), manifests to us in the following ways:
• In the beginning God…… (Gen 1:001) – The Father first person of The Holy Trinity
• … and the Word was with God, (John 1:001) (the Word- Power- energy- sprit,-the Holy Sprit,) The third person … …
• And the Word was made flesh (John 1:014) (the matter- the perishable- God in the form of human body- The Christ) The Second person … …
The Father maker of heaven and earth, seen and unseen … is common to all mankind… to all… the good, the bad, the able, the disable, of all races, colour or caste….is The God for all mankind.
The Son, The Saviour, the way and the truth and the life… (John 14:6) as a High Priest ( as St. Paul calls him) leads us, the faithful, towards THE GOD, is the God for all those who believe him and follow him, the Christians.
The Holy Sprit, the comforter… the giver of life… Resides in us and prompts, helps the individual to communicate and to know and understand THE GOD, is a God to me, the individual.
To know, to understand, to reach THE GOD, We should
• Accept with thanks our being in this world as created by The God The Father
• Follow the life and teachings of The God the Son meticulously
• Meditate and communicate with the help of The God the Holy Spirit in us
THE GOD alone can make HIM known to us by revealing HIMSELF to us.
Regards
Dev
N
Newnews
Guest
That is interesting Dev, sounds like you have been influenced by Indian ways of thinking. Any comments on this theological view from the Forum Master ?
J
JimG
Guest
You mean me? That designation only means I have made a lot of posts, nothing more.
But Dev’s view is simply a more meditative view of contemplating the Trinity; whereas the view of Scholastic theology is more analytical. Both views, will I am sure, prove to be totally inadequate in the presence of the Beatific Vision. The fine line to be trod between orthodoxy and heresy is to avoid thinking of the Trinity as three gods rather than three Persons.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Yes, this is what another poster said too. I’m not sure this is an appropriate use of the term “humanity” or, at least, there is a danger of equivocation here.
We can pose the question more directly this way: to what extent did Jesus share the human experience that we all do? Obviously he didn’t experience sin. He did experience pain and suffering but did he experience estrangement from God and ignorance of God’s will? There are many passages that seem to suggest a limited knowledge.
This makes sense but now I’m wondering: what is the distinction between “divine” and “holy”.
One of the alternative (heretical) explanations for Jesus was that he was the human incarnation of an archangel. One of the arguments against this is that the OT discourages worship of angels and Jesus accepted worship. But that aside, what is the reasoning behind a hard distinction between divine persons and holy spirits such as angels?
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JimG
Guest
Catholic doctrine proposes that mankind–i.e. our first parents–were created in an unfallen state, with perfect control of their bodily emotions and impulses by their mind and will. In committing original sin, they decided, like Lucifer, that they would rather be ‘like God’ --entirely autonomous despite the limits of their human nature. The results of original sin resulted in a certain deformation of human nature.
Jesus didn’t suffer that deformantion. But trying to analyze the inner workings of the hypostatic union between the human and divine natures of Jesus is probably beyond our capability. As a human, he could suffer and die, he could humanly learn, and experience all human emotions. It would seem to me that, in his human nature, he could be limited in his knowledge of God’s will. (In his divine nature, of course, he possessed the divine will.) By becoming human, he took on human limitations.
At the same time he was just one Person, and even as a human, always experienced the Beatific Vision because he was always and necessarily united with the Father in the one divine nature.
Angels are spiritual beings, but not of an infinite nature. Mortimer Adler referred to them as “minds without bodies.”
The distinction between “divine” and “holy.”
Divine refers to the nature of God. Only God can be divine.
“Holy” has several meanings. I think it originally meant having integrity of mind and will and body and emotions, such as Adam & Eve had originally. To that, we have added the idea of possessing sanctifying grace, of being united with God to as great an extent as possible.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
I have issues with the traditional doctrine of original sin and the Adam and Eve story. While I appreciate the general moral lessons of it, it is, at best, a “true myth”.
In any case, clearly Adam and Eve were capable of sin so “perfect control of their bodily emotions and impulses by their mind and will” availed them nothing. If there was a deformation of character, it preexisted the fall.
Well, sure. If we grow weary of this intellectual investigation we can always throw up our hands and declare: “mystery.” Let’s not go there yet.
I suppose it’s always possible that Jesus could know some things by his nature and not other things. God (i.e. the second person of the trinity) could limit himself to, say, a level of knowledge just above the saints in terms of “Beatific Vision”.
This is where the equivocation on “fully human” plays havoc. What you’re essentially arguing is that there is a concept of humanity which entails “perfect control of their bodily emotions and impulses by their mind and will” and full “Beatific Vision” but this is not the ordinary experience of fallen human beings. So saying that Jesus was “fully human” does not imply that Jesus experienced life just like the rest of us. I’m not sure that’s important but it seems straightforward.
Right, but what would you get if an angel were incarnated with a huma body? How would such a person be different from Jesus? (I forget offhand what Christian sect holds this opinion but there is one.)
So another way to pose this question would be to ask: if a saint were resurrected and returned to earth, how would he be different from Jesus?
J
JimG
Guest
They would be just as all of us will be after the resurrection, provided we end up in heaven.
I didn’t mean to imply that the integrity of mind and body possessed by our first parents precluded them from sin. It just made it a more deliberate affair, with not much push from the emotions but more from the intellect. And, not yet having the beatific vision–i.e. union with God–they were capable of sin, just as were the angels before their own Fall.
The temptation, in both cases, I think, was to pride, which led to disobedience. It’s the same sin which still plagues us all: I want to do it my way.
Fr. Andrew Greeley once wrote a book titled “The Jesus Myth.” The title meant not that Jesus was a fiction, but that his story was the basis on which society organized itself for several millenia, in the same way that “the Sinai myth” was an organizing principle for ancient Israel. It doesn’t mean “not true.” It just means “foundational.”
Genesis tells the story of original sin in a foundational sort of way. It doesn’t mention an apple or any known fruit. But it does state the prohibition against eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The first parents already knew good. After they knew evil, things went downhill.
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shaky
Guest
Hi JimG
When at the end of everything when we are with God what will we see in Heaven
will it be 3 visible persons, or 2 visible persons, or one visible person
will some of the persons be Invisible. maybe the farther and holy spirit are Invisible
And we only see Jesus Christ???
J
JimG
Guest
We won’t see any “visible” persons. Father, Son, and Spirit do not have bodies that we can see. We can, however, see Jesus in his human form, and the Beatific Vision is said to be the direct experience of God (invisibly) in our soul.
P
PJM
Guest
Here’s the deal. You define the Tinity for me and then I’ll explain why… JUST KIDDING
The Blessed Trinity is the way God choses to present Himself to us. Why?
We can know for sure that its for our benefit, not God’s.
I suspect it has something to do with our limited understanding of the Divine Nature. This is certainly evident in the realm of Protestantism, who seem to understand God as Good and Loving; BUT really seem to struggle with the Fact that God MUST be as part of His Divine nature, also Fair and Just; and therefore OSAS is not only not biblical its also not logical.
God ent His Only Son so that we might better understand Who and What He is. It would seem the Trinity is an extension of that desire and effort.
Love and prayers,
Pat
D
devas
Guest
We always try to personify things we do not know and personify in terms of what we can under stand. It, The Personifications may be a must, for basic understanding- but beyond that …. If carried over- the result is this question…
What happens in HEAVEN is any body’s guess- we do not know- how ever much the scholarly discussions, theological analyses can not help….
Please recall what our saviour said (John 16:12-13 NJB) :
** I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you to bear now. However, when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, … …**
To know, to understand, to reach THE GOD, we have to invoke The Holy Sprit God in us , contemplate, communicate, meditate…
By the way, what it means by ‘the Beatific Vision’ – the term is new to me - if it is the ‘direct experience of God (invisibly) in our soul’- then it is possible only by prayer and meditation.
Regards
dev
M
mikehullhull
Guest
The bottom line is
1.Jesus instructed us to make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the (singular) name of the Father , the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
2.Jesus told Phillip that when Phillip saw Him that he saw the Father.
3.Jesus refered to himself as I AM.
4. St. John wrote that Jesus is the Word and the Word was God and the Word is God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
These are only a few, yet adequate examples from the New Testament that we need the dogma of the Trinity because it is a Divine revaltion from God Himself that should be defended against heresy.
I am Michael. I have a body a mind and a spirit. My body is distinct from my mind and my spirit distinct from my body yet all three of these are me.
1.Jesus instructed us to make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the (singular) name of the Father , the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
2.Jesus told Phillip that when Phillip saw Him that he saw the Father.
3.Jesus refered to himself as I AM.
4. St. John wrote that Jesus is the Word and the Word was God and the Word is God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
These are only a few, yet adequate examples from the New Testament that we need the dogma of the Trinity because it is a Divine revaltion from God Himself that should be defended against heresy.
I am Michael. I have a body a mind and a spirit. My body is distinct from my mind and my spirit distinct from my body yet all three of these are me.
S
shaky
Guest
Hi devas
From reading scriptures Old and new testament. God can not be seen.
From reading scriptures Old and new testament. God has been seen.
Jesus says he has seen the Farther. This could mean his mental eye.
The farther does not Pray. But Jesus Prays. And the holy spirit prays for US.
scriptures says Only One God.
Scriptures seem to point to 3 persons.
There is nothing stopping God dividing himself in to 3 persons and still remain God.
The holy spirit seems to be dividing himself and indwells Each believer
Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God.
IN HEAVEN
The holy spirit can not be seen because he is in True believers.
Jesus sits at the right hand of the farther.
Jesus said he who has seen me has seen the farther. Me and the farther are One.
Scriptures says Through him JESUS CHRIST everything was made by him for him.
Isaiah 9:6 says Jesus Christ is Mighty God everlasting farther.
Jesus Christ said All authority under heaven and earth has been Given to Me.
Scripture Says Only One Person is Seen sitting on the Throne.
Conclusion JESUS CHRIST will Be the Only One Seen In Heaven.
Also all the Angels+ US
This is Only The way I see Things At This present Moment In Time.
P
PJM
Guest
No… Your misunderstanding all right; but not what was shared…John 10: [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. [30] I and the Father are one."
John
John 3:13 -17 "Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove,[The Holy Spirit] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice[God the Father] from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, [Jesus, 2nd. Person in the Trinity] with whom I am well pleased.”
OF COURSE Jesus is BOTH GOD and the SON of God; Second Person of the Trinity., [Eternal] and as God co-equal, co-eternal. Jesus lives now eternally in His Risen Glorified Body. [See Matt. 28:19-20].
Love and prayers,
- Status