Why the virgin birth instead of a second Adam or second Moses?

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pianistclare said:
OK. I guess I just don’t understand how anyone can think that God is “weird”.
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Bingo. The OP is trying to say that God should have done things the way he thinks they should have been done. Its rather hard to answer a question when the response is simply “yeah, but why didn’t…”
 
Timothysis said:
Bingo. The OP is trying to say that God should have done things the way he thinks they should have been done. Its rather hard to answer a question when the response is simply “yeah, but why didn’t…”
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Does that mean you can’t explain why it’s beautiful? If someone says, “I don’t see why you and others think this work of art is beautiful,” and you respond, “you just don’t get it,” then how have you helped? If you’re not here to try and help, then why are you here?

I mean that honestly. How do you think your comment contributes to my understanding?

I’m saying, “Here’s this work of art that people think is beautiful. It doesn’t seem beautiful, please help me to see why it is beautiful.” If you’re not up to it, or my philistine perspective is hopeless in your eyes, so be it. I will look for others who can help me see the painting differently.
 
Neoplatonist said:
I mean that honestly. How do you think your comment contributes to my understanding?
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Because you have been given the answers and still continue to say “why?”

Its like a child asking their father why the sky is blue and after every explanation just repeats “why?” until the father finally gives up out of frustration. They aren’t seriously seeking enlightenment.
 
It is also quite common in trying to understand a concept, or to make sense out of someone’s explanation, to compare the example under review - the piece of art, for instance - to others that might seem to fit the requirements and then dig down to understand why this painting, for instance, does it better.

Just because I want to know why Painting A is better than Painting B does not mean I think the artist should have painted Painting B instead. If, however, you cannot explain why one is more beautiful, or why people love A better, then we move on.
 
Timothysis said:
Because you have been given the answers and still continue to say “why?”

Its like a child asking their father why the sky is blue and after every explanation just repeats “why?” until the father finally gives up out of frustration. They aren’t seriously seeking enlightenment.
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So wanting to dig down into the understanding to a deeper level signifies that I don’t actually want to understand? Wow.
 
OK. 🙂
God taking human form, and allowing Himself to come into the world as a helpless baby to a mother who was obedient and spotless, is incredibly beautiful.
Because childbirth is beautiful. We cooperate with God’s grace in a creative way.
And God Himself chose to share in this with all of mankind, and the bonus?
Redeem us in the process.
Wow. I can’t think of anything more beautiful.
That God would just walk in our shoes, so that we may know Him intimately.
Beautiful. Simply beautiful.
 
pianistclare said:
OK. 🙂
God taking human form, and allowing Himself to come into the world as a helpless baby to a mother who was obedient and spotless, is incredibly beautiful.
Because childbirth is beautiful. We cooperate with God’s grace in a creative way.
And God Himself chose to share in this with all of mankind, and the bonus?
Redeem us in the process.
Wow. I can’t think of anything more beautiful.
That God would just walk in our shoes, so that we may know Him intimately.
Beautiful. Simply beautiful.
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Better. Much better. Maybe even approaching awesome. Doesn’t dispel all my doubts/questions, but gives me a lot to reflect on. 😃
 
Neoplatonist said:
Better. Much better. Maybe even approaching awesome. Doesn’t dispel all my doubts/questions, but gives me a lot to reflect on. 😃
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It’s normal to question. So long as we are open to hearing the answers.
God whispers, not shouts. Thank heaven! 😉
that still small voice…
God bless you.
Has been a nice, polite discussion.
 
Neoplatonist said:
lol. Poor guess. If my wife were only 1/1,000,000 th my intellect, age, maturity, etc., we had never never dated, and I just used some procedure to appear my child inside her, it would be weird.

If I created some lower biological life form in the lab, loved it dearly, and implanted my seed inside it, how would that NOT be weird?

(Add in that she’s married to someone else and after my impregnation, she would never be able to have sex, and could never have any other children, nor would he.) I realize that comparison is weird though, since he is also only 1/1,000,000th my intellect, age, maturity, etc. - basically another lower biological life form in my lab.
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Ok first Mary freely chose to consecrate her virginity to God, that was a free act of love on Mary’s part before the Annunciation where she asks Gabriel for some clarification and her question indicates she knows how the human body works and that her fiancée Joseph can’t be the child’s father. Overshadowing by the Holy Spirit is the exact same language used when talking about the Ark of the Covenant. Mary also gives her free consent to give God a human nature. God did not impregnate Mary, she willed the Son into being in her Fiat. God never impedes on our free will and God isn’t like the pagan Greek gods who could pregnant humans. There nothing sexual about the Incarnation and it would serve you well not to think about it that way.
 
The second Adam, (Christ) to do what He did for us, would not He need to be more perfect or at least equal to the 1st Adam to be able to apease God the Father.

The 1st Adam was perfectly formed by God.

(Gen 1:27) And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Gen 2:7) And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Since Adam was created perfect by God, Christ would need to be perfect in human form. Since the earth was cursed by God, if Christ would have been created from earth, He would not be as perfect as Adam was.

Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

The ground was perfectly created by God, Adam was perfectly made by God.
 
Neoplatonist said:
Given God’s power and all, can someone spell out a persuasive, coherent line of reasoning for why God needed to actually impregnate Mary instead of just creating a new, improved Adam from clay (Adam 2.0) or just revealing his nature and plans to a regular human being (imagine Moses multiplied times ten)?

Those options would have avoided a number of weird issues, like what if Mary had said no - would she have gone to Hell? Would Gabriel have kept asking around til he found a girl to say yes? If Mary believed it was GOD, how could she answer without duress? If she didn’t believe it was GOD, then why in the world would she consent? Etc. I’m not trying to sort all those out, so don’t let me distract from the main question. I’m just establishing context.

If it’s just another one of those mysteries, then fine; I don’t need you to tell me that. I’m also down with how I should have more faith all around, so don’t need reminders of that either. 😃 I’m curious about ways to make sense out of it within the limits of reason.

Thanks for joining in and sharing your insights!
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God became man so you can become like god.

God knew He would become man from all eternity and would have regardless of bad choices of others.

Mary was predestined from all eternity.

Man refused communion with God and in love God became man to show man how to be like god. Man was dense, he wasn’t getting it. He could have sent a book but that wasn’t working as well either.

He picked a women because men are dense as we seen with the Angel when man was struck “dumb” for talking too much.

He placed a higher acknowledgement on virginity-chaste life, I believe He blessed it because of the issue of its abuse by temptation-evil, He despises it also and insults God with its abuse. He blessed the family also and the sacrament brings understanding in this regard. The relationship of Jesus Mary and Joseph is a fine example of family opposed to dysfunction and of interrelated unity. Its the structure of human reality in the physical world. He placed and exclamation point on it.

He showed man just how much He loved him by humbling Himself and and taking on mans burden in the physical world. In a word He said come with me I know your lost and will show you the way out.

So man wouldn’t assume that the burden was easier for Him because He is God, He left a humble human example in Mary. One of unselfish sacrifice and with no hesitation. Mary in a word is a quiet hero.

It’s one of those great mysteries, perhaps the greatest act of love from Incarnation to the Cross ever documented. You can’t fault the story its the greatest selling book in history.

Just passing thoughts.
 
Jesus was a simple human being otherwise he didn’t need to be given the birth.
 
Neoplatonist said:
lol. Why on earth would anyone be on here asking anything if they already understood it? Seriously. [smh]

What I do not see in your reply is an explanation of why it needed to be a God-impregnated woman. Could God not have sent Christ directly to be crucified?

Could he not have similarly known in advance that his fresh-from-clay Eve 2.0 would say, “Yes” (and, as a bonus, creating symmetry with the first Eve’s error)?

Or any of countless other possibilities . . .
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Jesus wasn’t only consusbstantial with the Father, but also consubstantial with us. He shared our blood and our nature because he was a descendent of Adam. As a man he suffered the consequences of sin (death and suffering), and redeemed us through them. There are whole books written to make this point, and many of the saints were very insistent that Jesus must share in all that Adam had and be a descendant of his.
 
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