Why the 'virgin' difference in distinction and title of male & female saints?

[JReducation]

Since I have had voluntary impure thoughts (before my baptsim
), does this mean that I cannot become a nun?

Absolutely not. The orders of nuns that require virginity as a prerequisite to admission mean no sexual intercourse.

Sexual thoughts, voluntary or involuntary are not part of this picture.

However, a Vocation Director of an order or a congregation will certainly have concerns and reservations admitting anyone who voluntarily engages in sexual fantasies. These certainly present a conflict with the vow of chastity.

On the other hand, if one has committed a sin, repented and received absolution. It is not held against that person as long as it’s over and done with.

I have a wonderful Franciscan Brother who trained me. He was a former convict who had shot his wife and killed her, while he was under the influence of alcohol. I’m not sharing anything confidential here. He used to speak at retreats and schools give witness to his life story and how he came to know Christ in prison. When he was parolled, he enterd the Franciscan order.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the young man who killed Maria Gorreti also became a Franciscan Brother.

Our former sins, that have been absolved are rarely impairments for admission to the religious life, unless we’re talking about somethng that leaves a residual effect which can hurt another person.

 

[Beautiful]

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the young man who killed Maria Gorreti also became a Franciscan Brother.

Our former sins, that have been absolved are rarely impairments for admission to the religious life

After serving his sentence, Alessandro Serenelli took up residence at a Capuchin monastery, working in the garden as a tertiary. He asked pardon of Maria’s mother and accompanied her to Christmas Mass in the parish church where he spoke before the hushed congregation, acknowledging his sin and asking God’s forgiveness and the pardon of the community.

source

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Absolutely not. The orders of nuns that require virginity as a prerequisite to admission mean no sexual intercourse.

Sexual thoughts, voluntary or involuntary are not part of this picture.

However, a Vocation Director of an order or a congregation will certainly have concerns and reservations admitting anyone who voluntarily engages in sexual fantasies. These certainly present a conflict with the vow of chastity.

On the other hand, if one has committed a sin, repented and received absolution. It is not held against that person as long as it’s over and done with.

I have a wonderful Franciscan Brother who trained me. He was a former convict who had shot his wife and killed her, while he was under the influence of alcohol. I’m not sharing anything confidential here. He used to speak at retreats and schools give witness to his life story and how he came to know Christ in prison. When he was parolled, he enterd the Franciscan order.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the young man who killed Maria Gorreti also became a Franciscan Brother.

Our former sins, that have been absolved are rarely impairments for admission to the religious life, unless we’re talking about somethng that leaves a residual effect which can hurt another person.

Thanks be to God!

 

[dessert]

i don’t see why a man cannot be a virgin. If a woman is not it is because she was enntered into by a man if a man had not entered into a woman at all in his life than he is a virgin.

 

[JReducation]

i don’t see why a man cannot be a virgin. If a woman is not it is because she was enntered into by a man if a man had not entered into a woman at all in his life than he is a virgin.

A man can be a physical virgin. We’re born virgins. However, the Church reserves the Consecration of Virgins for women religious of certain orders. This is not a denial of male virginity. It is a tradition.

Simply, it is not part of Catholic or Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition to consecrate male virigns.

At this point, the Church doesn’t feel that it would add anything to our spirituality or theology to change this tradition.

 

[bankerdavid]

I know that in ancient times, circa the Roman Persecutions, Virgins, Lectors, Gravediggers, Charismatics, Confessors, Widows, were all vocations, or orders, as were Deacons and Priests.

In the Catholic Church a consecrated virgin is a woman who has dedicated herself to a life of virginity or perpetual chastity in the service of God and the Church in a form that is recognised by the Church. Men who have dedicated their virginity or perpetual chastity to God in this way tend to be referred to in Christian writings as “ascetics”.

 

[JReducation]

I know that in ancient times, circa the Roman Persecutions, Virgins, Lectors, Gravediggers, Charismatics, Confessors, Widows, were all vocations, or orders, as were Deacons and Priests.

In the Catholic Church a consecrated virgin is a woman who has dedicated herself to a life of virginity or perpetual chastity in the service of God and the Church in a form that is recognised by the Church. Men who have dedicated their virginity or perpetual chastity to God in this way tend to be referred to in Christian writings as “ascetics”.

This is true. The orders of ancient times are not to be confused with religious orders.

Religious orders cam later and religious congregations much later than that.

 

[Beautiful]

I’m nearly finished reading
Virginity: A Positive Approach to Celibacy for the Sake of the Kingdom of Heaven by Raniero Cantalamessa
It is a great book
Virginity is for all.

 

[JReducation]

I’m nearly finished reading
Virginity: A Positive Approach to Celibacy for the Sake of the Kingdom of Heaven by Raniero Cantalamessa
It is a great book
Virginity is for all.

As long as we keep in mind that perpetual virginity is a gift for some, not for all.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

As long as we keep in mind that perpetual virginity is a gift for some, not for all.

It is “for all” in the sense that *all *of us benefit from it, in reaping the fruits of the dedicated prayers and self-offering of the “some” who practice it.

 

[Beautiful]

As long as we keep in mind that perpetual virginity is a gift for some, not for all.

Agreed - perpetual physical and spiritual virginity is a gift from God for some - not all but I would like to linger on the the following words by Fr. Cantalamessa.

Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa says in his book titled Virginity
It must also be said that spiritual virginity is the most important, and that it is not something given once and for all and to the preserved, but rather something that can be acquired day by day. By His grace, God has transformed some of the greatest sinners into His most loving and most loved spouses. Pg 82

These words correspond with the Gospel. Who did Jesus encounter? The woman at the well, the woman to be stoned and the hemorrhaging woman all were marked with sin – undesirables. Jesus comes today especially for the sinful and marked. Were there any stories of Jesus encountering pure women or virginal woman?
Of course - yes - The Virgin Mother of God.

Not to discount physical and spiritual virginity but married people can commit their lives to Jesus just like a physical virgin – every single day they awaken – they can renew their spiritual virginal love. When a person gets married they don’t stop loving God. I married someone but never stopped loving God first. In a very real way my love for God is as virginal and constant as before I was married.

Again – I don’t mean to reduce the beauty of Fr. Cantlamessa’s words. His book is very good. I feel that spiritual virginity is paramount and shouldn’t be overlooked in the faces and hearts of the many men and women who daily commit themselves to Christ. While full acceptance and cooperative physical virginity in combination with humble spiritual virginity is the ultimate way to say “I love you” to God the giver of such a wonderful gift and vocation - it is not reserved for single women only.

Chapter 14 in the Book of Revelations states: These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

 

[JReducation]

It is “for all” in the sense that *all *of us benefit from it, in reaping the fruits of the dedicated prayers and self-offering of the “some” who practice it.

There is no doubt about this. However, I meant that not all are called to perpetual virginity.

 

[Beautiful]

If I find an answer to my own question it seems only right that I share.

“The male ascetic cannot fulfill the symbolic role in the Church that a vowed female virgin can,” he said. “Just as a woman cannot appropriately symbolize Christ by ordination to the priesthood, a man cannot symbolize Mary, the New Eve, the Mother of God. Nor can a man symbolize the Church as bride. Yet Mary in her contemplative role is superior to the priest in his active, ministerial role. Thus, as a sign, the consecrated virgin is superior to the priest.”

source

 

[JReducation]

Beautiful

I’m not sure of the entire context of the quote that you provided, I assume that the writer uses the term “superior” as synonymous with one’s level of consecration, not one’s rank in the Church.

However, the Church makes several distinctions very clear.

First, there is the Sacrament of Holy Orders, which is conferred only on males. There are three degrees in Holy Orders: deacons, presbyter (priest) and bishop. Only the bishop has the fullness of the priesthood. Those men who receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders are called clerics and are part of the hierarchy of the Church. This would not apply to our Lady as she was not a cleric. Therefore, she has never been part of the Church’s hierarchy. Her place in the Church is very different. She is the mother of the Church by virtue of the fact that she is the mother of the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ. The Apostles and their disciples, including the deacons, were part of the hierarchy, because they were clerics. Only clerics may form part of the Church’s hierarchy.

Second, there are religious. Religious who commit their lives to the service of Christ within a community. These communities have a constitution; some have a rule and a constitution, such as Franciscans. The member of a religious community binds himself to the community by vowing to live according its constitutions in poverty, chastity and obedience. Some religious communities have additional vows such as silence or Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity who make a fourth vow of free service to the poor.

Deacons, priests and bishops do not have to belong to a religious community. On the other hand, male members of religious communities do not have to be deacons, priests or bishops. Religious communities of men often have both laymen and clerics. However, there are religious communities that have only laymen, such as the De la Salle Christian Brothers, the Marist Brothers, Xaverian Brothers and others.

Now . . . more confusing. Some male religious communities only allow some of their members to be ordained. The superior selects those who have a vacation to the priesthood, but only enough to satisfy the needs of the religious community, not for the purpose of serving outside their community. These priests are clerics, like any other priest, but they are also brothers, becaus they belong to a religious community which is a brotherhood. For example, one religious community that has laymen, deacons, priests and even bishops are the Capuchin-Franciscans. Archbishop Chaput of Denver and Cardinal O’Malley of Boston are Capuchin-Franciscans. They are considered brothers and are addressed by the title, especially when they are within their community.

In any case, the primary obligation of the members of a religious community is to serve the Church according the spirit of their founder. For this reason, you’ll find priests who are religious, such as in monasteries. But because they consider themselves monks first and priests second, they do not exercise priestly ministry outside of the monastery. In the Society of Mary (Marianist Brothers) those brothers who are priests may not hold positions of authority, such as superior of a the house. They may only celebrate the sacraments in their houses, their schools or when on loan to a bishop or parish, with the blessing of the superior (who is always a layman). Another term for male religious who are laymen is Lay Brother. This is to avoid the confusion between the brothers who are clerics and those who are lay. They make the same vows, live by the same rules, in the same community, but one member has also received Holy Orders and the other has not. The superior decides who is ordained.

Now that we have clarified the difference between religious men and clerics, let’s look at religious life, both male and female.

Religious communities are divided between orders, congregations, and societies. For example, the Dominicans are an order. The males make solemn vows which can only be dispensed by the Holy See. The female Dominicans can be either nuns or sisters. Nuns also make solemn vows, sisters do not. The greatest difference between solemn vows and simple vows has to do with two areas. Men and women who make solemn vows are bound to pray the Divine Office under penalty of serious sin. Those who belong to Congregations or Societies are bound to the Divine Office by their Constitution, not by Canon Law. Another important difference, if someone in solemn vows attempts marriage without a dispensation, the marriage is invalid. This only applies to members of an order, not a congregation. Those in congregations make simple vows. If they attempt marriage, without a dispensation, the sacrament overrides the vows. Therefore, the marriage is valid and binding, even though it is illegal.

This is complicated, but no one said that God was light and easy on his gifts. LOL

 

[Polaris]

Well if we want to be technical no man was ever a virgin until recently, with the advent of the C-section. A woman however can preserve her virginity through birth.

Probably the only virgin male ever born was Jesus, because as Mary was preserved so was Jesus.

 

[Cadellin]

St Thomas Aquinas says that a virgin who is raped remains a virgin after the act. In other words, virginity can only be given, it can’t be taken. (A woman who allows a man to take it is giving it passively.) Virginity is more a state of the heart than of the hymen. (This leads to the notion that sexual abstinance perservered in chastity can restore a lost virginity.)

It is not so much virginity that is important as chastity. Take the case of a woman who has never had sex out of marriage but who has been married five times and has ten children, and the one whose hymen is in tact but commits ‘sins of impurity’ by herself. Who is more Christ-like the one who practices chastity according to her state in life, or the virgin? St Bernard once said, ‘Although I have not known woman, yet I am no virgin’ (and no, smarty pants, he wasn’t a homosexual).

A nun once told me that virginity, in itself, has no value unless it is a sign of service to God. Perhaps that is why the Church values virginity in a female saint, because it is a particular sign of her service to God. (This, then, begs the question of what is the particular sign of a male saint’s service to God. )

 

[JReducation]

St Bernard once said, ‘Although I have not known woman, yet I am no virgin’ (and no, smarty pants, he wasn’t a homosexual).

A nun once told me that virginity, in itself, has no value unless it is a sign of service to God. Perhaps that is why the Church values virginity in a female saint, because it is a particular sign of her service to God. (This, then, begs the question of what is the particular sign of a male saint’s service to God. )

Let’s begin with your first assumption above, just for fun, not to be rude. We have no idea if St. Bernard was gay or straight, because he was celibate. Obviously, he was not sexually active. This or the fact that he was a saint is no guarantee that he was straight. One’s sexual orientation is neutral, neither good nor bad. One’s sexual behaviour has moral implications.

Now to the real point that I wanted to address, what the nun told you. It’s kind of a blunt way of saying it, but she is technically correct. Voluntary virginity for love of God is a virtue of great significance. Voluntary virginity can be male or female.

Do not confuse virginity as it appears in the Church’s liturgical calendar with the other kind of virginity, as in not having been sexually active.

When a person (male or female) remains a virign for the sake of the Kingdom of God, the Church considers this a way of life.

When calendar celebrates the feast of St. Agnes, Virgin and Martyr, there is no implication that this was her way of life, only that she was a virgin at the time of her death. St. Teresa of Avila is also a virgin on the liturgical calendar, but she was a nun and this was the way of life that she chose. Blessed Mother Teresa appears as a virgin in the liturgical calendar, but she was a sister, though not a nun. However, sisters also choose this as their way of life.

It has been the tradtion of the Church, since very early, to proclaim a female’s virginity (if applicable) at her canonization. This was never the tradition during the canonization of males.

The fact that the virginity of a male is not proclaimed at their canonization or mentioned on the liturgical calendar does not imply that the Church values virginity more in females than males. The root of this tradition is in Judaism.

Judaism is a matriarchal society; therefore, virginity and motherhood are extremely important in Jewish theology. This matriarchal tradition came into Christianity with the early Jewish Christians and has remained with us to this day. Observe that we refer to the Church as Mother. In Jewish theology, the faith is handed down by the mother, not the father. It is the role of the mother to preserve the faith and nurture her children in the practice of the faith.

To conclude, to choose a life as a virgin for the sake of the Kingdom of God, is equally virtuous for males and females. The liturgical reference to a female’s virginity is not a proclamation that it is superior to that of a man’s virgiity. It is simply a carry over from our Jewish heritage regarding the importance of women in the transmission of the faith. In acient Israel, a woman who chose to remain a virgin was considered to be out of compliance with her duties toward Judaism. The early Christians made a conscious effort to take note of a woman’s virginity as a means of taking away the sense of guilt connected to voluntary virginity in Judaism.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Cadellin]

I hope this makes sense

Yes, it does make sense. There is one matter that concerns me and that is the distinction, in this thread, drawn between nuns and sisters. I’ve been a Catholic for over sixty years now. The first 44 years in New Zealand and the last 17 in the UK, and have kept close to the church all my life. I have always understood that when a woman becomes a nun she is addressed as Sister (just a man who becomes a priest is addressed as Father). So what’s with ‘she’s a nun but not a sister.’ Perhaps it’s due to some local differences between the east and west of the Atlantic Ocean. Can anyone explain?

 

[JReducation]

Yes, it does make sense. There is one matter that concerns me and that is the distinction, in this thread, drawn between nuns and sisters. Can anyone explain?

There is a legal, spiritual and theological difference between a nun and a sister.

Sisters only exist in the the Western Church. In the Eastern Church all women religious are nuns.

Now, what’s the difference?

Religious women can belong to one of two kinds of communities. They can be contemplatives also known as monastic or cloistered. These women never leave their monasteries, except for the basic necessities of life. Among the better known communities of contemplatives are the Carmelite nuns, Poor Clare nuns, Benedictine nuns, Trappistine nuns, Dominican nuns and Visitation nuns.

As you can see, nuns live inside an enclosure or monastery and do not have an active ministry outside of that enclosure. They never get transfered from one place to another. Each monastery is autonomous, even if they belong to the same order. So you can have Poor Clare nuns in traditional habit and Poor Clare nuns up the street in slacks. Each monastery governs itself. Talk about women’s lib! That’s the legal stuff.

In addition to this, just like sisters, nuns make vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. However, their vows have a deeper spiritual “bond” if you will. For example, a nun leaves her monastery without permission and tries to marry, the marriage is invalid. Her vow of chastity overrides the sacrament of marriage. In fact, she incurs excommunication. Becasue she has made vows within a monastic or contemplative community, she is not subject to the authority of the local bishop. She is subject to the authority of her superior, usually called an abbess. To leave the order, she must obtain a dispensation from the Holy See. The Church calls her vows, solemn vows. A nun must also pray the Divine Office round the clock for the rest of her life, under penalty of mortal sin.

Now to sisters. Sisters are also women religious. They are not members of religious orders. Their communities are called congregations or societies. Sisters usually engage in apostolic work outside the convent. They may live in convents or other types of living arrangements. They never live in monasteries. They are not cloistered. The better known congregations of sisters are the Sisters of St. Joseph, Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity, Maryknoll Sisters, teaching or nursing sisters such as Sisters of St. Dominic or Sisters of St. Francis, Daughters of Charity, Sisters of Charity, Sisters of Mercy etc.

Sisters also make vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. However, their vows are called simple vows. They do not have the same spiritual bonds and obligations as solemn vows. Most sisters pray some of the hours of the Divine Office, such as morning prayer and evening prayer, but do not have to do so. It’s up to their constitutions. If a sister were to run away from her convent and get married without permission, her marriage is valid. It is illegal, but valid. She cannot get a divorce. The sacrament of marriage overrides her vows. Most sisters need a dispensation from their superior general to leave their congregation or the bishop of the home diocese. Usually, the superior general applies to the Sacred Congregation for Religious or the bishop of the Congregation’s home diocese for the dispensation, once the superior agrees that the request is legitimate.

In the Eastern Church, both Catholic and Orthodox, there are no sisters. All women religious are nuns and live in monasteries that they never leave and no one ever enters. In the Western Church, women can choose to be either nuns or sisters. Mother Angelica is a nun. She never leaves her monastery, except for a serious reason and people can’t go in or just telephone to see how she’s doing. Nuns do not go home on vacation, sisters do.

As to what to call them, that’s a matter of geography. Roman Catholics call all women religious Sister, whether they are nuns or sister, such as Sister Mary Jane. Eastern Catholics have never had sisters, just nuns. All nuns are called Mother. The superior is Mother Superior or Rev. Mother.

Is your question about sisters and nuns answered?

There are also differences between priests. Some priests are part of religious communities. They take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. They obey the superior of the community and the community’s rules and constitution. Other priests do not take vows, they live independently and they answer directly to the bishop. These priests are not male religious. They are secular priests. We usually call them diocesan priests.

Are you confused, yet! I hope not.

 

[porthos11]

A Confessor used to be a catch-all for a male saint who was neither ordained, religious, or a martyr. The corresponding Common in the Office and Missal was the Common of Confessors.

In today’s Calendar, the corresponding Common is that of Holy Men. Sometimes, after the Saint’s name, a more specific descriptive term is used in the liturgical books (e.g. King, Married Man), and others, not at all, but we no longer see “St. So-and-so, Confessor.”