Why the Wiccans?

[HauntedJame]

Much like the topic at hand. Merely declaring yourself something does not make it so.

Racial Nationalism is impossible to reconcile with Christianity.

However yes, you’re right, there are Christian Goths.

You have a point. Declaring yourself something doesn’t necessarily make you so, but it is possible to twist the ideal to fit your own agenda (not you, of course, but you in the broad “those people” sense!)

 

[Shiranui117]

Erm…to worship a being, you sort of have to believe in it. Being apathetic is different from actively worshipping it, which is what satanists do…so if you don’t believe in satan, you can’t worship him. That would sort of be like saying you can be a Catholic without believing in God, because He’s just there.

I can’t speak on behalf of Wiccans because I’m not one, but to be fair, of those I know, I have never once heard them refer to themselves as witches…I only hear other people call them witches.

I also believe that they do believe in a higher power, they just happen to believe that the world around us is that higher power…that’s what my friend told me anyway.

One thing you need to keep in mind is this: What many Catholics think of as Satanism is really better described as Theological Satanism. There are many forms of Satanism that are better described as materialism, or even self-worship. Satanism has many forms.

 

[HauntedJame]

The practices of Wicca would not necessarily point to Satanism if it were not for the dangerously ambiguous nature of their golden rule. Any philosophy that promotes that kind of moral relativism is from Satan.

I DO NOT believe wiccans are Satanists, but I was just pointing out how the similarities can be frightening to some people who don’t know any better. That being said I think it is a very dangerous cult for people to become involved in and I point that out whenever the opportunity presents itself. I have a brother who “follows the path of the Wiccan” so it is somewhat personal to me.

How can it be a cult when so many are solitaire Wiccans?

 

[LDNCatholic]

You have a point. Declaring yourself something doesn’t necessarily make you so, but it is possible to twist the ideal to fit your own agenda (not you, of course, but you in the broad “those people” sense!)

Of course you’re right. Hence Hitler’s ‘‘Positive Christianity’’ and the ‘‘Christian Identity’’ of the modern WN. Trying desperately to escape the fact that their Messiah probably looked a lot more like ‘‘the enemy’’ than they are comfortable with.

And then on the other side of it you have the neo-pagan, neo-nazi folk reconstructing ancient Saxon and Viking beliefs to fit around their perverse worldview.

 

[HauntedJame]

Of course you’re right. Hence Hitler’s ‘‘Positive Christianity’’ and the ‘‘Christian Identity’’ of the modern WN. Trying desperately to escape the fact that their Messiah probably looked a lot more like ‘‘the enemy’’ than they are comfortable with.

And then on the other side of it you have the neo-pagan, neo-nazi folk reconstructing ancient Saxon and Viking beliefs to fit around their perverse worldview.

Yes, very true. And Hitler did have the benefits, so to speak, of having a religious and desperate country under him, and he twisted Christianity enough to make them blind to all the horrible things going on.

I hear Scandinavia has a huge problem with the neo-nazis twisting Norse mythology to fit their racial agendas. I find it said; mythology is such an important part of history, and has been used all through the ages. A lot of the Bible has similarities to Greek myths (old Testament anyway), and the similarities between Norse and Greek/Roman mythology is rather startling!

 

[LDNCatholic]

Yes, very true. And Hitler did have the benefits, so to speak, of having a religious and desperate country under him, and he twisted Christianity enough to make them blind to all the horrible things going on.

That said, it was in some of the more religiously active parts of Germany that Hitler faced his strongest opposition.

I hear Scandinavia has a huge problem with the neo-nazis twisting Norse mythology to fit their racial agendas.

I’ve heard it too. The problem has spread into Germany and even in the UK. Seems to me they’re desperate to have a culture to call their own, something to mark them out as separate from other races but Christianity doesn’t fulfill their requirements.

 

[JDZwiers19]

How can it be a cult when so many are solitaire Wiccans?

For lack of a better term I called it a cult. I have trouble even labelling it as a philosophy because it has very little to say on matters of faith and morals. It leaves pretty much everything to the individual. I see this as very dangerous. It becomes an excuse to do whatever you want as long as (in your mind) you are not hurting anyone. If you believe God created you than you have no right to do whatever you want with yourself. You owe your existence to God and should respect yourself as you would others.

 

[HauntedJame]

That said, it was in some of the more religiously active parts of Germany that Hitler faced his strongest opposition.

I’ve heard it too. The problem has spread into Germany and even in the UK. Seems to me they’re desperate to have a culture to call their own, something to mark them out as separate from other races but Christianity doesn’t fulfill their requirements.

I think that Hitler’s strongest opposition was the Catholics, if I remember my history correctly. And of course the boarder towns, especially the ones close to Holland and France.

I think that neo-nazism is frightening, and unfortunately it is easily for them to escape into their twisted version of Norse mythology. It is sad to see it having spread…I have noticed the trend here in the US as well.

 

[LDNCatholic]

And species. Think I remember Loki the trickster was the son of an Aesir and a giant.

 

[HauntedJame]

And species. Think I remember Loki the trickster was the son of an Aesir and a giant.

Yes, I remember that too…but of course, he was considered a baddie by most after what he did with Balder…and his punishment for it

 

[Nine_Two]

But the devil worship was something that the Catholic Church attributed to them; they rarely said they did so unless they were tortured into a “confession”. Most of the witches burnt were so-called “wisewomen”, people with a great knowledge of herbalism, often acting as midwives and healers in villages.

So? The modern day group are claiming common cause with these people with no links. If you decide to link yourself with people executed for devil worship, whether or not the charge was just, you’re going to get accused of it yourself.

 

[Leo_The_Great]

High five nine-two.

 

[Cable]

I’ve noticed in this forum that there’s a lot of resistance towards Wiccans. I suppose my question is why Wicca is more frightening/wrong in the eyes of some people than Islam or other religions? I mean, wouldn’t Satanism be the one that people would be against rather than Wicca?

If the wiccan is not just a coffe-table wiccan, but rather a wiccan who is practicing sorcery, conjuring up fallen angels, then they’re knowingly/unknowingly in league w/ the devil. If the originator of Wicca borrowed from Satanism, then you can say Wicca isn’t Satanism (exactly), but it’s not playing Chutes&Ladders either. IMO more than a few people are being horribly deceived by some form of Wicca.

 

[JDZwiers19]

But the devil worship was something that the Catholic Church attributed to them; they rarely said they did so unless they were tortured into a “confession”. Most of the witches burnt were so-called “wisewomen”, people with a great knowledge of herbalism, often acting as midwives and healers in villages.

Actually the Catholic Church was not all that fond of burning witches. At the council of Paderborn in 785 AD. the Church outlawed the belief in the existence of witches. Charlemagne made it into state law and anyone who burnt “witches” was charged with murder and condemned to death. Later, under the inquisition, it became a target of the Church’s effort to root out heresy but the actual cases of witches being condemned to death are few and far between. When the witch craze swept through Europe in the 17th century the countries under the rule of the inquisition were the only ones not burning so called “witches” by the thousands. Every accusation was thoroughly investigated and most were found without merit. Something worth noting. Sadly most witch hunts originated from among commoners and many took “justice” into their own hands.

 

[cyberwolf001]

I think this should be better as ‘Why the Pagasns?’ Now let me preface this with my standard warning of this is one of my famous postings before bed after an all night shift on the job.

It seems a lot it has to do with the idea that people are worshiping Gods people thought were long dead (however worship never really died off). Now some Catholics simple cannot comprehend this, they figure if we do not have exacting liturgical documents, detailed theological documents and detailed pantheon lists we cannot worship the old Gods.

Yet here we are doing it anyway. Putting together new rituals informed by what we know and our best efforts finding out what the Gods, Spirits and Ancestors like and do not like. (re)Discovering new Gods, Spirits and Ancestors or old ones or even old ones with new names.

We are called a fad, nothing serious. Yet every year or so our numbers double. In Scotland Druids make up a majority in some branches of the government. In England Pagans can now take the eight major festivals recognized by most Neo-Pagans as a banking Holiday (meaning if they gotta work they get Holiday pay on it). In Iceland an Asatru group has become an official church gaining tax payer support. Then we have the massive growth going on in Russia and Slavic nations, not to mention the Hellenic Pagans fighting for there rights in Greece.

In the US of A two Neo-Pagans hold office. Across the nation temples are going up. In areas without enough members to gather Covens/Groves/Kindreds and study groups meet at coffee houses, bookstores, parks and in the woods. As these groups gather more people come to join and nine times out of ten these new members left there Christian faith to be with us. We wont even get into the media’s love/hate relationship with us.

In all of this Laymen, Religious and Clergy from all the Monotheistic religions scratch there heads and cannot figure out the attraction.

Plus we are as others have shown truly different. We love this world and all the good things in it while also forming a close ties to the Praeternatual and Supernatural realms. This of course sits wrong with many Catholics as they are worried about what we are coming into contact with and what just might decide to come walking out of our ritual spaces and into the our world.

This just BARELY scratches the surface of why we Pagans can leave Catholics a little uncomfortable with us.

 

[Dsivanish]

But the ideas behind Wiccan is completely different from Satanism…for instance…they don’t believe in Satan. Don’t you need to believe in Satan to be a Satanist?

No,there are theistic Satanists; who believe in the devil as a higher power; and non-theistic Satanists who believe the devil as an archetype for their own development as a person.

Witchcraft seems to equate to nature worship, and whatever pagan gods and goddesses they choose.

 

[Contarini]

I’ve noticed in this forum that there’s a lot of resistance towards Wiccans. I suppose my question is why Wicca is more frightening/wrong in the eyes of some people than Islam or other religions? I mean, wouldn’t Satanism be the one that people would be against rather than Wicca?

The confusion between Wicca and devil-worship (I use that term rather than “Satanism,” because “Satanism” could be understood to refer to Anton LaVey’s “Church of Satan,” which is a specific kind of “Satanism”) is partly the fault of Wiccans. They choose to call what they do “witchcraft,” identifying it with the activities of the “witches” accused of having dealings with Satan in the past (particularly during the Renaissance). Of course, they believe that these “witches” were really just practitioners of paganism persecuted by Christians. But that’s a point often lost on Christians. Suppose, for instance, that Catholics were to send out missionaries and call them “Inquisitors.” That would create a parallel misunderstanding (as the use of the word “Crusade” by evangelicals has sometimes done, but the word “crusade” has taken on a general enough meaning that the misunderstanding isn’t quite as great).

Furthermore, there are some links between Wicca (which was founded by Gerald Gardner in the mid-20th century) and the magician Aleister Crowley, who did come disturbingly close to Satanism in certain respects. I have heard anecdotally and third-hand of Wiccan covens being infiltrated by Satanists.

In short, while we should make it very clear to our fellow Christians that Wiccans are not Satanists, the fact is that the confusion isn’t just some sort of bizarre prejudice on the part of Christians.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Actually the Catholic Church was not all that fond of burning witches. At the council of Paderborn in 785 AD. the Church outlawed the belief in the existence of witches.

Yes. Unfortunately this attitude changed in the late Middle Ages. Why is a fascinating question. My own rather wacky and speculative view is that it was linked to the elimination of Satan from Atonement theology. Anselm and Abelard insisted that Satan had no “rights”–they broke with the traditional Christian view (rooted in the OT) which saw Satan as the minister of punitive justice. I think that this distorted Western Christians’ understanding of both God and Satan and paved the way for the paranoid belief that there was some kind of “underground Satanic conspiracy” all over Europe.

Later, under the inquisition, it became a target of the Church’s effort to root out heresy but the actual cases of witches being condemned to death are few and far between.

That’s exaggerated. I think that you are committing the common mistake of confusing “the Inquisition” with Catholic persecution of heresy generally. Episcopal and civil courts also tried heretics and witches.

When the witch craze swept through Europe in the 17th century

There were two waves of witchcraft “persecutions.” One in the late fifteenth century (the era of the *Malleus Maleficarum, *though this text was much more idiosyncratic than most people realize) and early sixteenth, and one in the late sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The latter was indeed the larger and deadlier. There was a lull of some decades in between–perhaps because the Reformation distracted people–hard to tell, since correlation doesn’t equal causation.

the countries under the rule of the inquisition were the only ones not burning so called “witches” by the thousands.

I don’t think they were the only ones, but the Roman and Spanish Inquisitions do seem to have had a braking effect. Some scholars account for this by arguing that the Inquisition focused the persecuting energies of Spanish society on people other than witches. I find this to be too speculative and psychological. I think the Inquisition should be given its due–its methodical use of Roman law made it much harder to condemn hordes of people on little evidence.

However, contrary to what many Catholic apologists claim, not all Catholic countries were subject to this “braking effect.” Catholics in France and Germany were just as likely to persecute “witches” as were Protestants in Britain and Germany (some in Scandinavia too, I think). The worst witchcraft persecutions took place along the Rhine river for some reason, and as far as I know there’s no difference between Protestant and Catholic territories. The fact that this area was the most divided religiously in Europe may have played a role (we are of course speaking of the second, post-Reformation wave at this point).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Very true:
Gawain and the Green Knight:

THEN þay schewed hym þe schelde, þat was of schyr goulez

Wyth þe pentangel depaynt of pure golde hwez.

He braydez hit by þe bauderyk, aboute þe hals kestes,

Þat bisemed þe segge semlyly fayre.

And quy þe pentangel apendez to þat prynce noble

I am in tent yow to telle, þof tary hyt me schulde:

Hit is a syngne þat Salamon set sumquyle

In bytoknyng of trawþe, bi tytle þat hit habbez, [folio 99v]

For hit is a figure þat haldez fyue poyntez,

And vche lyne vmbelappez and loukez in oþer,

And ayquere hit is endelez; and Englych hit callen

Oueral, as I here, þe endeles knot.

Forþy hit acordez to þis knyȝt and to his cler armez,

For ay faythful in fyue and sere fyue syþez

Gawan watz for gode knawen, and as golde pured,

Voyded of vche vylany, wyth vertuez ennourned

 in mote;

Forþy þe pentangel nwe

He ber in schelde and cote,

As tulk of tale most trwe

And gentylest knyȝt of lote.

Fyrst he watz funden fautlez in his fyue wyttez,

And efte fayled neuer þe freke in his fyue fyngres,

And alle his afyaunce vpon folde watz in þe fyue woundez

Þat Cryst kaȝt on þe croys, as þe crede tellez;

And quere-so-euer þys mon in melly watz stad,

His þro þoȝt watz in þat, þurȝ alle oþer þyngez,

Þat alle his forsnes he feng at þe fyue joyez

Þat þe hende heuen-quene had of hir chylde;

At þis cause þe knyȝt comlyche hade

In þe inore half of his schelde hir ymage depaynted,

Þat quen he blusched þerto his belde neuer payred. Page 19

Þe fyft fyue þat I finde þat þe frek vsed

Watz fraunchyse and felaȝschyp forbe al þyng,

His clannes and his cortaysye croked were neuer,

And pité, þat passez alle poyntez, þyse pure fyue

Were harder happed on þat haþel þen on any oþer.

Now alle þese fyue syþez, for soþe, were fetled on þis knyȝt,

And vchone halched in oþer, þat non ende hade,

And fyched vpon fyue poyntez, þat fayld neuer,

Ne samned neuer in no syde, ne sundred nouþer,

Withouten ende at any noke I oquere fynde,

Whereeuer þe gomen bygan, or glod to an ende.

Þerfore on his schene schelde schapen watz þe knot

Ryally wyth red golde vpon rede gowlez, [folio 100r]

Þat is þe pure pentaungel wyth þe peple called

 with lore.

 

[Scott_D_1]

Ok… as a long time Pagan, that recently converted to Catholicism…

Wicca didn’t borrow from satanism - I can tell you that… Its more of a “nature” religion that believes in multiple gods (some do only 1, some 2, some more…) That is just a misconception in the mass-puiblic that only has read the “scare tatics” on it. and Wicca is roughly only 40-50 years old as the majority pratice it today.

Many beleive in the do as you want as long as you harm none - and the if you do bad things - it will come back to you 3 times over. - Some “conjur” up the spirits, or the gods to come down and join them during a service. - but again similar things happen at Mass every Sunday.

If anything Gardner took more from the Catholic Faith than he did LeVey iand “satanism” - its quite easy to say. But again Catholics also took a few pagan traditions in the early days… (easier to convert people in those early days) - Like the Christmas trees for one…

And for a fact, I can tell you the Wicca/Pagan numbers do not double every year or two. If they did in the last 30 years if there wereonly 2 pagans in 1980 , there would well over 2.1 billion pagans running around. But again calling someone pagan is like calling someone Christian when you have Catholic, Anglican, Luthern, Baptist, Jevoah Witness, etc and as loose as the term pagan is, you could almost toss in Judism and Islam into that as they both have beliefs into many of the same figures from the old testament.

If you take a step back,and study many religions, and you will see many many things similar between them all.

But again, I am just getting a little more milage of this old soapbox and giving my views frommy experience.