Why the Wiccans?

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

If anything Gardner took more from the Catholic Faith than he did LeVey iand “satanism” - its quite easy to say. But again Catholics also took a few pagan traditions in the early days… (easier to convert people in those early days) - Like the Christmas trees for one…

I cannot speak from experience, only from what I’ve read, but it seems to me that if he took from anyone or anything, he borrowed a lot from Crowley and Golden Dawn / OTO ritual structures. Which, of course, are based on classical ritual occultism which, in the West, was shaped and informed by the structure of the Mass and Catholic ritual structure and spirituality generally (grafted onto some freemasonic ritual elements in the case of the Golden Dawn and its various splinter groups and affiliated descendants).

Which is not to condemn Gardner by affiliating him with Crowley (though I believe, in addition, that the affiliation is more than mere speculation on my part). Just something I find interesting. For the most part, occultism requires a religious system in which to operate–the classical grimoires, for instance, are not representative of a separate religion, but come directly out of Catholicism (in much the same way that Rosicrucianism is directly informed by Protestantism, specifically Lutheranism). I find it interesting that Wicca, considered strictly as a religious phenomenon, is in many ways Christian occultism once removed–that is, occultism without a stable religious structure in which to grow, thrive, or develop (apart from the existence of a few guiding or common principles) but treated as a religion in itself. It’s therefore more than a bit diffuse and incredibly multiform as it tries to attach itself to whatever structures that it finds available to it–this is, in fact, the legacy of Blavatsky and the like --a smattering of Hinduism here, some Buddhism there, a bit of Western mythology, a dash of the Corpus Hermeticum, a dolop of Christian messianism, and a helping of K/Q/Cab(b)ala(h). With a side of gnosticism. And that’s the new age, right there.

An example: alchemy was once considered a sacred science. It flourished in both Islam and Christianity in particular. But it required those cultural and religious contexts in which it could flourish. Remove alchemy from a defining spiritual context, what does it become? On the one hand, chemistry, on the other, a whiff of a desire for spiritual transformation and an inkling that the inner and outer, what is above and what below could in fact be connected in some important way. Elevate that desire to quasi-religious status and what do you get? The dubious practice of “depth psychology” by way of Jungian theorizing. That seems to me to describe the genesis of Wicca to some degree as well.

In describing Wicca thus, I don’t intend to lump all sorts of paganism into the same pigeon-hole. I believe Wicca enabled the pagan revivals, but I think many of those who have eschewed Wicca for a reconstructionist religion (such as Asatru or Druidism, for instance) do so because they have a similar realization regarding Wicca’s shortcomings as I’ve described above and yearn for a truly religious expression of their hopes and beliefs which Wicca can only partly satisfy.

Just my two cents, at any rate…

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Izdaari]

I’ve noticed in this forum that there’s a lot of resistance towards Wiccans. I suppose my question is why Wicca is more frightening/wrong in the eyes of some people than Islam or other religions? I mean, wouldn’t Satanism be the one that people would be against rather than Wicca?

Beats me. I don’t have any particular problem with Wicca as compared with other non-Christian religions. It was one of the ones I investigated on my path back to Christianity, and it had seemed to have more merit than many.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Great point.

Wiccan’s claim not to believe in Satan but they worship the Honed God who is often depicted with bat wings and cloven hoofs. They have a pentagram as their holy symbol (Satanism uses an inverted pentagram) and their one law goes something like “do what you want as long as you don’t harm anyone”. This law is exactly what Satan would say to tempt us into sin.

These “coincidences” (if you can call them that) are actually pretty frightening if you really think about them from a Catholics perspective.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Wiccan’s claim not to believe in Satan but they worship the Honed God who is often depicted with bat wings and cloven hoofs. They have a pentagram as their holy symbol (Satanism uses an inverted pentagram) and their one law goes something like “do what you want as long as you don’t harm anyone”. This law is exactly what Satan would say to tempt us into sin.

These “coincidences” (if you can call them that) are actually pretty frightening if you really think about them from a Catholics perspective.

What depiction are you looking at?

I’ve never seen one with wings. Most of the time the Horned God looks like Pan, who’s worship spread so far in England at one point many feared it would overtake Christianity. Well at least according to Ronald Hutton.

 

[kenofken]

Here we go again, cyberwolf. The Christians, or at least a subset of them, love to tar pagans with the same brush as Satanism because the first and last appeal of their religion is based on fear. Fear keeps the pews full and the revenues flowing. The broad “coincidences” between our paths and satanism would not pass muster in any undergraduate research seminar, but critical thinking and facts don’t matter to the “prayer warrior” crowd. Reason to them is a sneaky took used by the devil to advance his agenda. Since we have deities far older than their who they think look like Satan, we must be evil. Standards of evidence worthy of a Dan Brown novel. Perhaps the fact that I wear a black robe during ritual makes me a dark Jedi as well. The figure of Satan has no more religious meaning to us than the Judeo-Christian Yahweh or a Pokemon character, but the prayer warriors won’t let facts get in the way of a good story. I think at the very least they ought to pay us some royalties for using us as straw men, perhaps a percentage of the first year’s collection plate donations from each rube they scare into the pews from fear of the occult…

 

[LDNCatholic]

Here we go again, cyberwolf. The Christians, or at least a subset of them, love to tar pagans with the same brush as Satanism because the first and last appeal of their religion is based on fear. Fear keeps the pews full and the revenues flowing. The broad “coincidences” between our paths and satanism would not pass muster in any undergraduate research seminar, but critical thinking and facts don’t matter to the “prayer warrior” crowd. Reason to them is a sneaky took used by the devil to advance his agenda. Since we have deities far older than their who they think look like Satan, we must be evil. Standards of evidence worthy of a Dan Brown novel. Perhaps the fact that I wear a black robe during ritual makes me a dark Jedi as well. The figure of Satan has no more religious meaning to us than the Judeo-Christian Yahweh or a Pokemon character, but the prayer warriors won’t let facts get in the way of a good story. I think at the very least they ought to pay us some royalties for using us as straw men, perhaps a percentage of the first year’s collection plate donations from each rube they scare into the pews from fear of the occult…

If you’re so hostile to the Christian faith and think so poorly of it’s followers, just remember: You aren’t forced to speak with us on a Catholic website.

 

[MormonHero]

Augustine is a source for Pagan ethics, specifically the Wiccan Rede “An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will” – “If you harm no one, then do what you will”.

St. Augustine’s version of the idea was “Love, and then do what you will”.

Latin: “dilige et quod vis fac.”
Translation by Professor Joseph Fletcher: Love and then what you will, do.
– Tractatus VII, 8

Another quote from Augustine, often attributed falsely to Gandhi:

Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum.
Love the sinner and hate the sin.

– Opera Omnia, Vol II. Col. 962, letter 211

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Augustine is a source for Pagan ethics, specifically the Wiccan Rede “An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will” – “If you harm no one, then do what you will”.

St. Augustine’s version of the idea was “Love, and then do what you will”.

I don’t think that’s the direct source, MormonHero. It’s much more likely to be Crowley’s summary of the law: “Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law; Love is the law, love under will.” That Crowley cribbed from Augustine, though, is very likely. Or maybe it was Aiwass who did the cribbing, as Crowley supposedly received “Liber AL vel Legis” from that spirit via dictation in Egypt. Though to be honest, I’m not sure if the summary came with the book or after.

At any rate…

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Contarini]

Here we go again, cyberwolf. The Christians,

or at least a subset of them

Nice save there

Since we have deities far older than their who they think look like Satan, we must be evil.

I am not capable of determining the age of deities. You certainly use the names of ancient deities, but that doesn’t mean that what you believe about them or your ways of worshiping them are ancient.

And it’s generally agreed by historians (including Wiccans and other Neo-Pagans) that the origins of Wicca lie in 20th-century occultism rather than in any direct inheritance of ancient pagan tradition. Now “occultism” and “Satanism” are not the same thing. But the modern origins of Wicca, and the unfortunate choice by Wiccans to use words like “witchcraft” to describe their religion, do have something to do with Christian hostility to Wicca over and above the general hostility of most Christians to polytheism generally.

Edwin

 

[RHPMaryMagdalen]

Greetings,

I don’t know if you want me on your site or not. You see, I am a Marianist. By that, I mean that the Blessed Virgin was more than just a woman. She is the Goddess to our God.

It is my belief that in the beginning there was the ONE, the ultimate Deity. That Deity created the Angels and ArcAngels in it’s image. For some reason, the ONE decided to separate into 2 images: male and female. Thus, humans were created in their image. Lucifer, the Bringer of Light and God’s favorite, became prideful and jealous over the attention that the Deity (both male and female) gave to humans and challenged the Deity. Raphael was chosen by the female aka Goddess to take Lucifer’s place in the ensuing war. As Lucifer and the 330, 000 fell to Earth, some humans were turned by the 7 Deadly Sins that Lucifer and his demon angels used to entice them. The first to be turned was Adam and Eve and they became self aware and knowledgeable. Humans now knew sin. Later, these fallen ones mated with humans and the “Nephilim” were borne and dammed. On the other hand, there were certain humans that were closer to the Creator and Creatrix. These were the prophets in the old testament, and later in the New Testament, such creatures were called saints by the Church.

In order to save humans, the Deity needed to take human form, by going through the birthing process and growing up. The Creatrix came first, as She entered the womb of St. Ann, when St. Ann, formerly barren, was 6 months pregnant (the time period as written in the Bible). Thus, She was born 4 lunar months later and named Mary. As She grew to young adulthood, the ArcAngel came to Her to tell Her that God was ready to mate with Her to create the Savior and He thus was born as Jesus Christ, the teacher to humans, who fulfilled the prophecy. Only a Goddess could receive the seed of God and live. Yet, the Goddess could manipulate Herself to enter the womb of a pregnant woman, like the soul enters the fetus.

The gospels that the Church accepted, tell little of the story of the Goddess made woman, Mary. They also tell little of the story of the female disciples. Christ had a group of 12 male disciples and Mary had 12 of the female disciples as the mix of females and males in one group was not seemly by Jewish law. Note: In Wicca, a group of 13 is considered a Coven.

In the Jewish religion, the stories are handed down mother to daughter and father to son. The lineage of the mother is the one that the Jews followed as it was believed that the female was the only one who, by bearing the progeny could prove birthright. That is why I do not understand, nor believe that the lineage was begotten in the Bible by the male. It doesn’t make sense.

When the end of human life came, both Jesus (God) and Mary the Blessed Virgin (Goddess) were assumed back into the heavens.

Those are my Catholic (Universal) beliefs. If you feel that you would like someone who is such a supreme Marianist as myself, I would be honored to remain. However, if you feel that my beliefs are too far outside the mainstream Roman Catholic, I will certainly understand.

It is because of my Catholic beliefs that Catholic Wicca was borne. I was borne and raised a Roman Catholic. I have received all the Sacraments except for Extreme Unction (for obvious reasons). My mother is an Eucharistic Minister and my father, prior to his death was seeking to be a Deacon. I have been a Cantor and a member of the Choir prior to my affliction. I attended 11 years of CCD, then they could no longer answer my questions regarding such things as:

1. Is this hell?
2. Are ghosts or “spirits” the realm of purgatory?
3. Is heaven, a place in the central celestial infinity where the ONE is the center?
4. Does the body’s decay cause us to release energy for our soul to reach the area close to the ONE?
5. Do we live more than once on this plane of existence and do we do so till we get it right, so that there will no longer be a need for Earthly existence?

Today, I have such questions as:

1. Is studying Kabbalah a cause for excommunication?
2. When a person divorces and attempts to get an annulment from the church, but it takes longer than anticipated due to the attempt to find one’s former husband, is hand fasting with another considered grounds for excommunication?
3. If one is a defender of the Church, but finds it hard to attend Mass because one has agoraphobia, but receives and believes in the Eucharist from a Eucharistic minister, yet that person still questions some of the decisions made by the Pope, not the dogma but the encyclicals considered a “bad” Catholic?
4. Is it wrong for that agoraphobic, to create an altar and perform a “Mass” within one’s own home?
5. Is it wrong for the above person to celebrate Masses with others via the internet in an educational setting (aka the person creates an Academy for instruction and celebrates Masses within that Academy)?

I still consider myself the Catholic that I was borne to be and to spread the Good Word of the Lord, in His Jesus Christ persona. My delivery these days varies from the ever changing traditions of the Catholic Church. My favorite Pope was Pope John the XXIII. Recently, I had hands laid upon me by a retiring Catholic Priest as a healing. The energy that he was channeling from the Deity was strongly felt and I believe that if my faith as it is was a sin, I would not have received such a strong answer to my question that I asked to receive through the laying of hands.

Blessings of love and light from the Blessed Mother and Her Son the Lord God,
RHP Mary Magdalene

 

[TikiTokiguy]

So the Wicker Man is a Wiccan favorite?

 

[LDNCatholic]

Greetings,

Hello and welcome to CAF

I don’t know if you want me on your site or not. You see, I am a Marianist. By that, I mean that the Blessed Virgin was more than just a woman. She is the Goddess to our God.

You’re as welcome as any other however you may find your view on the Blessed Virgin meeting with some resistance.

Those are my Catholic (Universal) beliefs. If you feel that you would like someone who is such a supreme Marianist as myself, I would be honored to remain. However, if you feel that my beliefs are too far outside the mainstream Roman Catholic, I will certainly understand.

Those beliefs are far enough outside Catholic teaching to qualify for heresy. However as far as I know CAF does not ban people for holding heretical beliefs.

It is because of my Catholic beliefs that Catholic Wicca was borne. I was borne and raised a Roman Catholic. I have received all the Sacraments except for Extreme Unction (for obvious reasons).

And, one would assume, Holy Orders.

Today, I have such questions as:

1. Is studying Kabbalah a cause for excommunication?

I’ll leave that to others more knowledgeable. But my guess is that it would qualify as sinful.

1. When a person divorces and attempts to get an annulment from the church, but it takes longer than anticipated due to the attempt to find one’s former husband, is hand fasting with another considered grounds for excommunication?

If by handfasting you mean the neopagan marriage ritual, I think after 11 years of CCD you should at least know that without the consent of the bishop Catholics may not be married in non Catholic ceremonies

1. Is it wrong for that agoraphobic, to create an altar and perform a “Mass” within one’s own home?

Both gravely wrong and impossible for one who has not recieved Holy Orders

1. Is it wrong for the above person to celebrate Masses with others via the internet in an educational setting (aka the person creates an Academy for instruction and celebrates Masses within that Academy)?

As far as I know even validly ordained priests cannot celebrate the Mass via the internet. There is absolutely no reason for a layperson to be able to do it either.

God bless,

Peter

 

[gmcbroom]

Why the Wiccans?

 Well, simply put like marijuana, it can be a gateway to darker or harder things.  At least that was my experience.  Well, admittedly while I've never done drugs; the analogy is still the same.    
 I grew up going to church sporadically at best.  Then one day I saw the minister do something rather unchristian like. I won't mention it here as it could derail the thread.  It helped me make the decision to stop going to church.  When I left at first I was fine, but then an urge that happens to most entered my mind.  The feeling of wanting to belong to something greater than one's self.  Yet Christianity was not on the list I'd recommend.  so I in effect jumped way out there and started my forays into the occult.  I thought the wiccan way was a good path, hey it had a moral vein running through it and an empowering aspect as well.   Suddenly, I had an avenue open to me that didn't exist before.  I was that bullied teenager in high school that would slink away defeated in silence.  Yet, at home I'd read of ways to get petty revenge and take back my life from those who used me as their stepping stone.  
 While I never actually did any vengeance spells I could if I so chose too.  That was empowering to me.  But as most probably will in there lifetime, you get the urge to want to learn more.  In my case, wiccan magic was a Pandora's box.  I wanted to learn more about magic.  So I started digging.  I went and learned about Gardner and that made me think what came before him?  Well, the Crowley connection led me to Thelema.  but soon I wanted to learn more so I looked into the Golden Dawn and it rituals.  That held my interest for a time but my meager budget and lack of access to a GD Lodge made me want to learn even more of what came before.  I read of ceremonial magicians such as Levi, Barret, and Dee.  They intrigued me.  Then I noticed something....I had jumped from nature religion to studying enochian and angelic magic.  Then I started looking into Now when I looked into enochian that exposed me to angels both light and dark.  But I wasn't finished.  I eventually learned that the black mass and many grimoires I liked to read where possibly done by defrocked priests.  This interested me.  Yet do to the fact that I wasn't a priest it made me jump into chaos magic wich led me all the way to ancient sumerian deities and path working the Necronicom.  It is a modern grimoire that utilizes ancient gods and goddesses.  But, eventually through my brother's prayers (over 20years worth)    I came to know Jesus and was drawn to the Maronite Catholic Church.  I was baptized this past pentacost and have never been happier.

The bottom line is Wicca is a stepping stone.

 

[kenofken]

Why the Wiccans?

 Well, simply put like marijuana, it can be a gateway to darker or harder things.  At least that was my experience.  Well, admittedly while I've never done drugs; the analogy is still the same.    
 I grew up going to church sporadically at best.  Then one day I saw the minister do something rather unchristian like. I won't mention it here as it could derail the thread.  It helped me make the decision to stop going to church.  When I left at first I was fine, but then an urge that happens to most entered my mind.  The feeling of wanting to belong to something greater than one's self.  Yet Christianity was not on the list I'd recommend.  so I in effect jumped way out there and started my forays into the occult.  I thought the wiccan way was a good path, hey it had a moral vein running through it and an empowering aspect as well.   Suddenly, I had an avenue open to me that didn't exist before.  I was that bullied teenager in high school that would slink away defeated in silence.  Yet, at home I'd read of ways to get petty revenge and take back my life from those who used me as their stepping stone.  
 While I never actually did any vengeance spells I could if I so chose too.  That was empowering to me.  But as most probably will in there lifetime, you get the urge to want to learn more.  In my case, wiccan magic was a Pandora's box.  I wanted to learn more about magic.  So I started digging.  I went and learned about Gardner and that made me think what came before him?  Well, the Crowley connection led me to Thelema.  but soon I wanted to learn more so I looked into the Golden Dawn and it rituals.  That held my interest for a time but my meager budget and lack of access to a GD Lodge made me want to learn even more of what came before.  I read of ceremonial magicians such as Levi, Barret, and Dee.  They intrigued me.  Then I noticed something....I had jumped from nature religion to studying enochian and angelic magic.  Then I started looking into Now when I looked into enochian that exposed me to angels both light and dark.  But I wasn't finished.  I eventually learned that the black mass and many grimoires I liked to read where possibly done by defrocked priests.  This interested me.  Yet do to the fact that I wasn't a priest it made me jump into chaos magic wich led me all the way to ancient sumerian deities and path working the Necronicom.  It is a modern grimoire that utilizes ancient gods and goddesses.  But, eventually through my brother's prayers (over 20years worth)    I came to know Jesus and was drawn to the Maronite Catholic Church.  I was baptized this past pentacost and have never been happier.

The bottom line is Wicca is a stepping stone.

I don’t see how your story demonstrates that Wicca is a stepping stone to anything in particular, much less anything dark. What drove your interest in darkness and revenge had nothing to do with Wicca and everything to do with the normal frustrations of a bullied teenager. The fact that you saw Wicca and other magickal paths primarily as instruments of revenge shows that you never studied or grasped them at any depth. Nothing wrong with that. You weren’t interested in them as spiritual paths for their own sake.

My point is that your being in a dark place and taking an interest in our religions does not make our religions a dark place. You should count yourself lucky that you found a relatively harmless diversion for a time in occult books and history. Your interest in revenge might well have led you to material on firearms and bomb-making or radical Islam, all of which are easily accessed online these days. You might easily have become an embittered atheist or a prison inmate if your anger had led you to real-world revenge on your tormentors.

Wicca for you was a stepping stone to a spiritual journey which you may well not have taken otherwise, one which has led you apparently to a good place. For others like me, it’s the stepping stone to the front door of our own spiritual home.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Here we go again, cyberwolf. The Christians, or at least a subset of them, love to tar pagans with the same brush as Satanism because the first and last appeal of their religion is based on fear. Fear keeps the pews full and the revenues flowing. The broad “coincidences” between our paths and satanism would not pass muster in any undergraduate research seminar, but critical thinking and facts don’t matter to the “prayer warrior” crowd. Reason to them is a sneaky took used by the devil to advance his agenda. Since we have deities far older than their who they think look like Satan, we must be evil. Standards of evidence worthy of a Dan Brown novel. Perhaps the fact that I wear a black robe during ritual makes me a dark Jedi as well. The figure of Satan has no more religious meaning to us than the Judeo-Christian Yahweh or a Pokemon character, but the prayer warriors won’t let facts get in the way of a good story. I think at the very least they ought to pay us some royalties for using us as straw men, perhaps a percentage of the first year’s collection plate donations from each rube they scare into the pews from fear of the occult…

It happens friend, what matters is when our faith is slandered we are there with the Truth of it and with as little attitude as we can muster, while never giving in to the urge to counter attack.

I am not capable of determining the age of deities. You certainly use the names of ancient deities, but that doesn’t mean that what you believe about them or your ways of worshiping them are ancient.

.

But the modern origins of Wicca, and the unfortunate choice by Wiccans to use words like “witchcraft” to describe their religion, do have something to do with Christian hostility to Wicca over and above the general hostility of most Christians to polytheism generally.

Edwin

Honestly to bad. I for one refuse to change things to make another faith happy.

So the Wicker Man is a Wiccan favorite?

It does seem to be popular, at least the original version.

I don’t see how your story demonstrates that Wicca is a stepping stone to anything in particular, much less anything dark.

-SNIP-

Wicca for you was a stepping stone to a spiritual journey which you may well not have taken otherwise, one which has led you apparently to a good place. For others like me, it’s the stepping stone to the front door of our own spiritual home.

This. It is common for many former Pagans to blame things on our faith that had nothing to do with the Paganism at all.

 

[Contarini]

.

Honestly to bad. I for one refuse to change things to make another faith happy.

I am not suggesting that you should. But it is silly to choose a label simply in order to provoke, or to refuse to back away from a label just out of stubbornness, even though the original reasons for choosing it turn out to be bogus. It’s only common prudence to avoid using a term that gives outsiders the wrong impression unless using the term is important. (For instance, some Catholics have used the word “worship” in a broad sense to describe their reverence for the Blessed Virgin Mary. But generally Catholics back away from this, because it gives Protestants the wrong impression. Similarly, some Catholics oppose the definition of the “co-Redemptrix” dogma even though they agree with what the dogma would assert, because they recognize that this gives the wrong impression. And so on. That doesn’t mean that they are compromising their beliefs.)

As I understand it, the term was originally used because of the belief that the “witches” persecuted during the Renaissance (often this is misleadingly said to have happened during the “Middle Ages” or even the “Dark Ages,” but that’s another issue)–the so-called “Burning Times”–were representatives of an ongoing living tradition of European paganism. I don’t think that this is a defensible view historically, and most educated neo-Pagans seem to be backing away from it. If this theory were true, then your use of the word would be an important move toward rehabilitating these pagan martyrs. In that light I understand why the early Wiccans used it. But since the theory is almost certainly false, the term has arguably lost its usefulness.

It is of course none of my business what you call yourselves. But as a historian of religion and a Christian interested in respectful inter-religious dialogue, I’m making what I hope are constructive and possibly helpful suggestions.

Edwin

 

[kenofken]

I am not suggesting that you should. But it is silly to choose a label simply in order to provoke, or to refuse to back away from a label just out of stubbornness, even though the original reasons for choosing it turn out to be bogus. It’s only common prudence to avoid using a term that gives outsiders the wrong impression unless using the term is important. (For instance, some Catholics have used the word “worship” in a broad sense to describe their reverence for the Blessed Virgin Mary. But generally Catholics back away from this, because it gives Protestants the wrong impression. Similarly, some Catholics oppose the definition of the “co-Redemptrix” dogma even though they agree with what the dogma would assert, because they recognize that this gives the wrong impression. And so on. That doesn’t mean that they are compromising their beliefs.)

As I understand it, the term was originally used because of the belief that the “witches” persecuted during the Renaissance (often this is misleadingly said to have happened during the “Middle Ages” or even the “Dark Ages,” but that’s another issue)–the so-called “Burning Times”–were representatives of an ongoing living tradition of European paganism. I don’t think that this is a defensible view historically, and most educated neo-Pagans seem to be backing away from it. If this theory were true, then your use of the word would be an important move toward rehabilitating these pagan martyrs. In that light I understand why the early Wiccans used it. But since the theory is almost certainly false, the term has arguably lost its usefulness.

It is of course none of my business what you call yourselves. But as a historian of religion and a Christian interested in respectful inter-religious dialogue, I’m making what I hope are constructive and possibly helpful suggestions.

Edwin

It’s a reasonable suggestion, but one not borne out by historical experience. Remodeling oneself to try to please one’s oppressors inevitably only earns their contempt, not respect or understanding. For centuries in Europe, Jews tried to “tone it down” in hopes that the bullies would find some other national past time than hounding them. We know how well that worked out. For some complex reasons, the term “witchcraft” is accurate for many, though not all of us. Reasonable people, Christian and others, are able to draw the distinction that we’re not poisoning peoples livestock or eating their babies or whatever other ludicrous allegations were associated with witches in the middle ages. The unreasonable folks want to believe the worst of us, so they shall, no matter what label we wear for ourselves.

 

[cyberwolf001]

It’s a reasonable suggestion, but one not borne out by historical experience. Remodeling oneself to try to please one’s oppressors inevitably only earns their contempt, not respect or understanding. For centuries in Europe, Jews tried to “tone it down” in hopes that the bullies would find some other national past time than hounding them. We know how well that worked out. For some complex reasons, the term “witchcraft” is accurate for many, though not all of us. Reasonable people, Christian and others, are able to draw the distinction that we’re not poisoning peoples livestock or eating their babies or whatever other ludicrous allegations were associated with witches in the middle ages. The unreasonable folks want to believe the worst of us, so they shall, no matter what label we wear for ourselves.

To use a more recent example, just look how Catholics trying to “act more Protestant” has worked out for the Church.

On our side the term Canar was coined as a name for all of us. It didn’t work out to well.

 

[Contarini]

It’s a reasonable suggestion, but one not borne out by historical experience. Remodeling oneself to try to please one’s oppressors

Don’t you think the word “oppressors” is a bit strong for anything going on in the U.S. right now?

And that’s not what I’m suggesting, as I said above. I’m suggesting that the term “witchcraft” is rooted in a historical mistake made by early Wiccans. By all means keep using it if it’s important to you. But I think it’s fair to give some account of why it’s important.

For some complex reasons, the term “witchcraft” is accurate for many, though not all of us.

I’d like to hear what these reasons are. That might help address the OP’s question.

Reasonable people, Christian and others, are able to draw the distinction that we’re not poisoning peoples livestock or eating their babies or whatever other ludicrous allegations were associated with witches in the middle ages. The unreasonable folks want to believe the worst of us, so they shall, no matter what label we wear for ourselves.

I agree. Bear in mind that the OP asks why Wiccans get treated differently than other non-Christian religions. I’m simply saying that Christians have different connotations to the word “witchcraft” than they do to the simple term “paganism”–though most Christians have negative connotations with that as well. Explaining why it is that calling yourselves “pagans” is not enough–why “witchcraft” is an important term for you as well–may shed light on this and help reasonable Christians decide whether our negative reactions to the word are sheer prejudice or not.

There are certainly magical elements to many religions–indeed, some would say that Christian practices of petitionary prayer are often magical, and I for one don’t necessarily see this as a bad thing. But most of the “major” religions have some kind of teaching about submitting one’s will to God, or detaching oneself from selfish desire, or something of that sort. It is the perception of many Christians that Wicca does not have anything like this. I myself am not sure if that’s a fair description or not, but I’d like to be better informed.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

To use a more recent example, just look how Catholics trying to “act more Protestant” has worked out for the Church.

Well, I don’t want Catholics to “act more Protestant” for the sake of doing so, and I agree that that has happened to some extent. But the more generous attitude toward Protestantism that has prevailed since Vatican II has by no means been a failure from my perspective. The attitude of Protestants toward Catholicism has been radically transformed. What you dismiss as “acting more Protestant” has done a great deal to overcome the immense damage done in the sixteenth century by the Catholic Church’s refusal to endorse good and true things that looked “too Protestant.” (Protestants, of course, did the same sort of thing, but from my perspective Catholics were basically right on most of the issues at stake and Protestants basically wrong, so I’m more frustrated with sixteenth-century Catholic methodology–my problems with Protestantism run much deeper.)

Edwin