Why there will Never be Peace

[racing59]

I came back to CAF after just finishing my race season and finally having time to.What I have found on these threads has been appaling. I was raised in a family were my Dad was raised Baptist and my Mom Roman Catholic. They were married over 63 years until my Mom passed away a few years ago. One thing they always had for each other was love even if they had different backgrounds. They always respected each other and found common ground. I came to CAF to ask questions and discuss the Bible Scriptures like the Book of Revelation in a intelegent discussion. I use to see that on this sight. Since I returned this pass week I’m appalied at what I see. Cathoilics, Protestants, Jews, Muslim, attacking one anothers beliefs. It makes me appalied to call myself a Christian. People can discuss without attacking or can they? I’m not a road Scholar like some, but I know what 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 calls us to. Love one and other. I know some will say I interprate this wrong, I say oh well works for me. The problem with or world today is so many people are trying to prove themself right the loose the Love. Those of us that have a real questions get killed in the crosss fire. To bad we can’t look for what we have in common and build on that, but I guess most on here have their own agenda. Just thought I’d post this, not that any one cares.

 

[Joe_5859]

You need a hug! :hug3:

I know what you mean. I think that some people simply are not able to agreeably disagree. It seems pointless to me to hurl insults. I learn the most from other people when the discussion is cordial and people are presenting their views. It’s hard to do that in a meaningful way when everyone is either on the offensive or the defensive.

I try to ignore the mean-spirited posts and focus on responding to those people who are interested in dialogue rather than prosyletism.

Believe it or not, though, CAF is the most polite board I have ever been a part of. I’ve seen other boards that make CAF look like a non-stop lovefest. But then again, I haven’t participated in that many other message boards.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I came back to CAF after just finishing my race season and finally having time to.What I have found on these threads has been appaling. I was raised in a family were my Dad was raised Baptist and my Mom Roman Catholic. They were married over 63 years until my Mom passed away a few years ago. One thing they always had for each other was love even if they had different backgrounds. They always respected each other and found common ground. I came to CAF to ask questions and discuss the Bible Scriptures like the Book of Revelation in a intelegent discussion. I use to see that on this sight. Since I returned this pass week I’m appalied at what I see. Cathoilics, Protestants, Jews, Muslim, attacking one anothers beliefs. It makes me appalied to call myself a Christian. People can discuss without attacking or can they? I’m not a road Scholar like some, but I know what 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 calls us to. Love one and other. I know some will say I interprate this wrong, I say oh well works for me. The problem with or world today is so many people are trying to prove themself right the loose the Love. Those of us that have a real questions get killed in the crosss fire. To bad we can’t look for what we have in common and build on that, but I guess most on here have their own agenda. Just thought I’d post this, not that any one cares.

There is a cosmic rebellion against God with rebellious humanity. Please start with the difference between Christianity (Catholic, Orthdox, Protestsants, Anglicans) and non-Christian religions. The exclusive claims of Christianity was made by Jesus Chrsit Himself. There is a real spiritual battle in this world.

 

[PAboy57]

agree with you both. Amen

just ignore them and spend time on the good posts. thanks

 

[Smart30]

There is a cosmic rebellion against God with rebellious humanity. Please start with the difference between Christianity (Catholic, Orthdox, Protestsants, Anglicans) and non-Christian religions. The exclusive claims of Christianity was made by Jesus Chrsit Himself. There is a real spiritual battle in this world.

There is 8 groups/categories that make up Protestant. Anglican is one of them.

Indeed we should not focus on the bad posts or the bickering but remember this verse:

Since you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ, in God. Colossians 3:1-3

 

[nsper7]

I came back to CAF after just finishing my race season and finally having time to.What I have found on these threads has been appaling. I was raised in a family were my Dad was raised Baptist and my Mom Roman Catholic. They were married over 63 years until my Mom passed away a few years ago. One thing they always had for each other was love even if they had different backgrounds. They always respected each other and found common ground. I came to CAF to ask questions and discuss the Bible Scriptures like the Book of Revelation in a intelegent discussion. I use to see that on this sight. Since I returned this pass week I’m appalied at what I see. Cathoilics, Protestants, Jews, Muslim, attacking one anothers beliefs. It makes me appalied to call myself a Christian. People can discuss without attacking or can they? I’m not a road Scholar like some, but I know what 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 calls us to. Love one and other. I know some will say I interprate this wrong, I say oh well works for me. The problem with or world today is so many people are trying to prove themself right the loose the Love. Those of us that have a real questions get killed in the crosss fire. To bad we can’t look for what we have in common and build on that, but I guess most on here have their own agenda. Just thought I’d post this, not that any one cares.

Remember that St. Paul, who wrote the First Letter to the Corinthians, could be quite scathing to those who rejected Truth or mingled Truth with falsehood (i.e. his comments to and about the Galatian Judaizers). St. John the Baptist was quite scathing towards the Pharisees, as was Jesus Himself later on. Falsehood was not supposed to be tolerated by the Israelites in the Old Testament, although they often did and it ended up being to their detriment.

You yourself just said that you know people are going to disagree with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13, but that ‘oh well’, it works for you. So, are you admitting that you are less interested in seeking Truth than in just seeking what makes you feel good or whatever?

On the one hand, it is easy to want to pat your parents on the back for making a ‘mixed’ marriage work, but even Scripture not to be unequally yoked. Having been a Protestant (Evangelical/non-denominational/Fundamentalist, also attended a Pentecostal ecclesial community at one point, a Restorationist [Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ], and then I was Confirmed into the Episcopal Church and, immediately before that, I was actually attending a parish that was affiliated with the Anglican Church of Kenya) and now a Catholic, I can say there are certain incompatibilities in faith and doctrine. It is easy for people to say that we should look at what unifies us, but remember that humans and apes share ~96% of the same genes. Remember that from the Catholic standpoint, Truth (of which the Catholic Church possess the fullness of in terms of faith and morals) can make no room for falsehood (which would include any Protestant doctrine that cannot be directly traced to Catholic doctrine). This is one of my biggest complains about current “ecumenical” efforts by elements of the Catholic Church: we risk falsehood entering parishes as it were and I have heard Catholics (including Priests) spout off heterodox statements that sound like they could have come from a Protestant.

Now, I can’t comment on Muslims and Jews on this site because I don’t think I’ve ever really gotten into an argument with them over Islam-Catholicism or Jewish-Catholicism differences and issues.

 

[rev_kevin]

Why there will never be peace— In my opinion its because we are human with flaws. We think and act in a human way. We live in a ME society where everything is about ME and we forget about the feelings of others. There is no real reason for this, There has always been conflict between different religions from the begining of religion, between the Jews and the Gentiles, the Catholics and the Protastents. Then it progresses between the blacks and the whites, from one country to another. As long as there are those who want to harm others, start wars, change lifestyles, change countries, do wrong to others in anyway, as long as humanity exists here on earth there will never be peace. Humans want to succeed in everything they do, and thats alright, as long as you don’t harm, take advantage, back stab, be dishonest to someone to get what you what. Just look at our society today, all the corruption in different governments, the rich want more and more money because its never enough. But the real problem is the lack of peace between different religions. You would think that this could never happen because we were told by God how we should act, but even among Christians it has fallen on deaf ears. We all are guilty of this, I know I am, and if someone says different they are lying. Each religion wants to be “right” and the others are “wrong.” But I say if you believe in God, believe that Jesus died for our sins, help others in their time of need, live as much as humanly possibly to be Christ like, to let God be incharge of your life and to pracitice your religion, as long as God is there in a possitive way.You are doing right and what a Christian should do. Now some may say that your wrong there is only one “true” religion or one “true” Church, MAN may say this is wrong because its not their religion, see thats mans hang up, but I feel God will say different. We need to be tolerant of all religions, races, sexes of all humanity because each one of us is different, have different thoughts, different feelings,different everything, see thats how God made us, so we should respect and do our best to get along with eachother. Well thats how I feel wether you agree or not.

 

[racing59]

Remember that St. Paul, who wrote the First Letter to the Corinthians, could be quite scathing to those who rejected Truth or mingled Truth with falsehood (i.e. his comments to and about the Galatian Judaizers). St. John the Baptist was quite scathing towards the Pharisees, as was Jesus Himself later on. Falsehood was not supposed to be tolerated by the Israelites in the Old Testament, although they often did and it ended up being to their detriment.

You yourself just said that you know people are going to disagree with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13, but that ‘oh well’, it works for you. So, are you admitting that you are less interested in seeking Truth than in just seeking what makes you feel good or whatever?

On the one hand, it is easy to want to pat your parents on the back for making a ‘mixed’ marriage work, but even Scripture not to be unequally yoked. Having been a Protestant (Evangelical/non-denominational/Fundamentalist, also attended a Pentecostal ecclesial community at one point, a Restorationist [Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ], and then I was Confirmed into the Episcopal Church and, immediately before that, I was actually attending a parish that was affiliated with the Anglican Church of Kenya) and now a Catholic, I can say there are certain incompatibilities in faith and doctrine. It is easy for people to say that we should look at what unifies us, but remember that humans and apes share ~96% of the same genes. Remember that from the Catholic standpoint, Truth (of which the Catholic Church possess the fullness of in terms of faith and morals) can make no room for falsehood (which would include any Protestant doctrine that cannot be directly traced to Catholic doctrine). This is one of my biggest complains about current “ecumenical” efforts by elements of the Catholic Church: we risk falsehood entering parishes as it were and I have heard Catholics (including Priests) spout off heterodox statements that sound like they could have come from a Protestant.

Now, I can’t comment on Muslims and Jews on this site because I don’t think I’ve ever really gotten into an argument with them over Islam-Catholicism or Jewish-Catholicism differences and issues.

I have found Truth in most churches to be a circular argument. Cathoic Church it is Jesus establish the Catholic Church, gave her Fulness of Truth, ergo if your not Catholic,you rejected Jesus, and your basically a blind man walking the earth doomed for damnation. Some Christian faiths give the same argument for their churches if you don’t belong to them your doomed. Jewish and Muslim faiths both believe they are the Chosen people of God, Jews through Issaic, Muslims through Ishmael. All of these are circular in there argument and have no room for falsehoods. I find all this strange ,almost comical, if it wasn’t so tragic. I came here to learn more about the Catholic faith, but you have given me my answer. Don’t be patient,don’t have love, chasity, or humility, just be right and believe you have the Truth and damn every one else. Guess this is why I don’t like religion.

 

[nsper7]

I have found Truth in most churches to be a circular argument. Cathoic Church it is Jesus establish the Catholic Church, gave her Fulness of Truth, ergo if your not Catholic,you rejected Jesus, and your basically a blind man walking the earth doomed for damnation. Some Christian faiths give the same argument for their churches if you don’t belong to them your doomed. Jewish and Muslim faiths both believe they are the Chosen people of God, Jews through Issaic, Muslims through Ishmael. All of these are circular in there argument and have no room for falsehoods. I find all this strange ,almost comical, if it wasn’t so tragic. I came here to learn more about the Catholic faith, but you have given me my answer. Don’t be patient,don’t have love, chasity, or humility, just be right and believe you have the Truth and damn every one else. Guess this is why I don’t like religion.

I am merely being honest. Certainly, love, chastity and humility are important, but in a discussion/debate, the issue is facts and Truth. I am a convert to Catholicism, so I had to examine the evidence for myself and, my reading of history tells me the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ.

If I did not believe the Catholic Church was Truth, then I would not be Catholic.

 

[DavidMark]

… 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 calls us to. Love one and other. I know some will say I interprate this wrong, I say oh well works for me. The problem with or world today is so many people are trying to prove themself right the loose the Love. Those of us that have a real questions get killed in the crosss fire. To bad we can’t look for what we have in common and build on that, but I guess most on here have their own agenda. Just thought I’d post this, not that any one cares.

Well spoken! You don’t need to be a Rhoades scholar to feel the chill of the absence of genuine love sometimes. Love is the only real topic that need be lived discussed.

Blessed the insatiate soul who casteth away his selfish desires for love of Me and taketh his place at the banquet table which I have sent down from the heaven of divine bounty for My chosen ones.(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 16)

 

[yankee_doodle]

I came back to CAF after just finishing my race season and finally having time to.What I have found on these threads has been appaling. I was raised in a family were my Dad was raised Baptist and my Mom Roman Catholic. They were married over 63 years until my Mom passed away a few years ago. One thing they always had for each other was love even if they had different backgrounds. They always respected each other and found common ground. I came to CAF to ask questions and discuss the Bible Scriptures like the Book of Revelation in a intelegent discussion. I use to see that on this sight. Since I returned this pass week I’m appalied at what I see. Cathoilics, Protestants, Jews, Muslim, attacking one anothers beliefs. It makes me appalied to call myself a Christian. People can discuss without attacking or can they? I’m not a road Scholar like some, but I know what 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 calls us to. Love one and other. I know some will say I interprate this wrong, I say oh well works for me. The problem with or world today is so many people are trying to prove themself right the loose the Love. Those of us that have a real questions get killed in the crosss fire. To bad we can’t look for what we have in common and build on that, but I guess most on here have their own agenda. Just thought I’d post this, not that any one cares.

The urge for the type of “peace” you’re looking for has (you may find this counter-intuitive, but bear with me) been the reason behind many wars throughout our history (particularly conflicts between Catholics & Protestants in medieval Europe).

In a free culture there will never, and can never be the type of “peace” you’re looking for, because someone will always have a new idea, entrenched interests will always defend old ideas, others will have honest disagreements with each other (that have little to do with self-interest); and what we wind up with is this marketplace of ideas that seems hostile at first glance, but allowing and indeed cultivating it is the only way humans can achieve true peace (that is life devoid of violent conflict, as we generally have in the western world today).

Even in a fascist society you can’t have the elusive peace you’re describing here. You might get compliance and chill free speech (through intimidation), but you’ll never have real agreement among everyone.

Indeed imagine a world where everyone agreed with everyone else? It would either mean everyone in the world knew everything that was capable of being known (which I doubt is possible), or it would be our intellectual death. We would become a society of zombies.

So embrace debates and arguments, even if the participants aren’t very nice to one another … and be glad you live in a society that cultivates free speech

 

[nsper7]

The urge for the type of “peace” you’re looking for has (you may find this counter-intuitive, but bear with me) been the reason behind many wars throughout our history (particularly conflicts between Catholics & Protestants in medieval Europe).

In a free culture there will never, and can never be the type of “peace” you’re looking for, because someone will always have a new idea, entrenched interests will always defend old ideas, others will have honest disagreements with each other (that have little to do with self-interest); and what we wind up with is this marketplace of ideas that seems hostile at first glance, but allowing and indeed cultivating it is the only way humans can achieve true peace (that is life devoid of violent conflict, as we generally have in the western world today).

Even in a fascist society you can’t have the elusive peace you’re describing here. You might get compliance and chill free speech (through intimidation), but you’ll never have real agreement among everyone.

Indeed imagine a world where everyone agreed with everyone else? It would either mean everyone in the world knew everything that was capable of being known (which I doubt is possible), or it would be our intellectual death. We would become a society of zombies.

So embrace debates and arguments, even if the participants aren’t very nice to one another … and be glad you live in a society that cultivates free speech

It looks like what racing59 wants is not ‘peace’, but a ‘carte blanche’ to say and think what he wants without having his personal ideas challenged by others.

 

[yankee_doodle]

It looks like what racing59 wants is not ‘peace’, but a ‘carte blanche’ to say and think what he wants without having his personal ideas challenged by others.

yes of course … people always want this sort of “peace” on their terms. That’s why I say this sort of peace isn’t really peace at all, it’s conformity and slavish.

Why can’t everyone just agree with me, shut up, and love each other? It’s such a dumb proposition it almost doesn’t deserve an answer. When heated debate stops in this society that’s when I’ll start to worry

 

[Irish_Polock]

yes of course … people always want this sort of “peace” on their terms. That’s why I say this sort of peace isn’t really peace at all, it’s conformity and slavish.

Why can’t everyone just agree with me, shut up, and love each other? It’s such a dumb proposition it almost doesn’t deserve an answer. When heated debate stops in this society that’s when I’ll start to worry

I agree, and fear a world were we all might be relativist.

 

[DavidMark]

Imagine a world where everyone agreed with everyone else? It would either mean everyone in the world knew everything that was capable of being known (which I doubt is possible), or it would be our intellectual death. We would become a society of zombies.

This is not what I want or hinted at.

**Through the clash of personal opinions, as 'Abdu’l-Bahá has stated, the spark of truth is often ignited, and Divine guidance revealed. The friends should therefore not feel discouraged at the differences of opinion that may prevail among the members of an Assembly, for these, as experiences has shown, and as the Master’s words attest, fulfil a valuable function in all Assembly deliberations. **(Lights of Guidance, p. 48)

But international order is promised. ‘Swords will be beaten into plowshares’. If not, then God does not keep or is not able to fulfill His promises.

 

[yankee_doodle]

This is not what I want or hinted at.

**Through the clash of personal opinions, as 'Abdu’l-Bahá has stated, the spark of truth is often ignited, and Divine guidance revealed. The friends should therefore not feel discouraged at the differences of opinion that may prevail among the members of an Assembly, for these, as experiences has shown, and as the Master’s words attest, fulfil a valuable function in all Assembly deliberations. **(Lights of Guidance, p. 48)

But international order is promised. ‘Swords will be beaten into plowshares’. If not, then God does not keep or is not able to fulfill His promises.

What about those who don’t believe there’s any such thing as “divine guidance”?

 

[racing59]

The urge for the type of “peace” you’re looking for has (you may find this counter-intuitive, but bear with me) been the reason behind many wars throughout our history (particularly conflicts between Catholics & Protestants in medieval Europe).

In a free culture there will never, and can never be the type of “peace” you’re looking for, because someone will always have a new idea, entrenched interests will always defend old ideas, others will have honest disagreements with each other (that have little to do with self-interest); and what we wind up with is this marketplace of ideas that seems hostile at first glance, but allowing and indeed cultivating it is the only way humans can achieve true peace (that is life devoid of violent conflict, as we generally have in the western world today).

Even in a fascist society you can’t have the elusive peace you’re describing here. You might get compliance and chill free speech (through intimidation), but you’ll never have real agreement among everyone.

Indeed imagine a world where everyone agreed with everyone else? It would either mean everyone in the world knew everything that was capable of being known (which I doubt is possible), or it would be our intellectual death. We would become a society of zombies.

So embrace debates and arguments, even if the participants aren’t very nice to one another … and be glad you live in a society that cultivates free speech

I can appreciate were you or comming from, but that is not what I’m looking for. People can have free speech without insults or violance. Seems to me Religion has always brought about violance. If you don’t believe my way, people resort to insults in the guisse of Truth. I have met many people with no religouis afiliation that , charitable, loving ,and peaceful than most religions. Through out human history freedom of speech has been pounce one in the name of one church or another. the peace I’m looking for is called “Respect” of one another and our differences. You can have an ittellegent debate, taking emotion out of it! But it seems when it comes to religion most people on this site can’t.It gets real ugly. I don’t mine some one not aggree with me, I don’t mine being proven wrong, what I mind is personal attacks when you don’t see things the way the other person has presented their arguments. I have no affiliation with any church, I get my church at my home with the people I love. I came here to learn from others in an intellegent manner. What I have learned is to push ones own agenda so every one else can counter attack. An we call this Christianity? You can have difference in a Respecrful way that is true Freedom of Speech!

 

[racing59]

I am merely being honest. Certainly, love, chastity and humility are important, but in a discussion/debate, the issue is facts and Truth. I am a convert to Catholicism, so I had to examine the evidence for myself and, my reading of history tells me the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ.

If I did not believe the Catholic Church was Truth, then I would not be Catholic.

Truth is relavent to the idividual. I do not see your Truth, because I have questions that I can not ask without peole getting emotional. If you want to believe RCC is the True Church, more power to you. Catholic to me is Universal covering all Christian faiths. I have studied history and many things you see, I don’t. It is a question of Faith,whether you believe your way, or not. Some things, there is no physical evidince of. So we as humans have to resort to Faith. For me to disagree with you on this site ( it seems to me) then I’m here to attack your Faith. This is not true, I just had some questions to ask with out others getting so emotional. I have even defended certain historical facts at times. You can debate in a respectful manner, we do it at the race track all the time on set up, track conditions, ect… But here it seems so much emotion, most people don’t want to discuss, they want to attack. If history is so clear why isn’t everyone Catholic or even Christian. Because histoty means His- Story, it is in the view of whom wrote it.

 

[yankee_doodle]

I can appreciate were you or comming from, but that is not what I’m looking for. People can have free speech without insults or violance. Seems to me Religion has always brought about violance. If you don’t believe my way, people resort to insults in the guisse of Truth. I have met many people with no religouis afiliation that , charitable, loving ,and peaceful than most religions.

Well I guess as someone who is irreligious I should agree with you, and you’re sort of right but probably sort of wrong as well. Obviously there’s been plenty of blood shed over religion, but this world has seen its share of atheist tyrants as well.

What has worked is the western concept of democracy and free speech (a product of both secular and theistic rationalist thinkers). You’re right to say violence is an unacceptable form of expression, however, debate can be heated, even rude (under our system ideological opponents must take their case to the public square of ideas, but it’s unrealistic to expect them to check their passions at the door).

Through out human history freedom of speech has been pounce one in the name of one church or another. the peace I’m looking for is called “Respect” of one another and our differences. You can have an ittellegent debate, taking emotion out of it! But it seems when it comes to religion most people on this site can’t.It gets real ugly.

I’m irreligious and I sometimes respond with irrational emotion to stuff that makes me mad … I think it’s called being human.

I don’t mine some one not aggree with me, I don’t mine being proven wrong, what I mind is personal attacks when you don’t see things the way the other person has presented their arguments.

well yeah, I see ad hominem attacks all the time. It’s a logical fallacy, but again people aren’t robots … they will sometimes respond with passion rather than reason. In a different society that passion could turn into blood shed, but we’ve created a system of open ideas – where the worse way a person can vent their anger is through something like an ad hominem attack; and even then their debate opponent has the opportunity to expose the logical fallacy.

You can have difference in a Respecrful way that is true Freedom of Speech!

I think any attempt to dictate what speech should look like makes it less free.

 

[racing59]

Yankkee_Doodle, you present some good arguments. My problem is this that I approach most things in a clinical manner so emmotion is taken out of it.I try to learn from culters and people all over the earth. To learn from every one is my goal, to try to have better understanding. Eastern Shinto philosophy states, " The greatest sin a man can commit is to think he knows everything". I approach most things with this philosophy ergo it takes emotion out of it,because I don’t know therefore I ask questions. This seems to me to rock peoples comfort. In racing we have a philosophy of " Everything works and nothing works." What works for some, may not work for others.I have the title of Christian because that is what works for me, because the way I grew up and what I was indoctrinated with.It just seems to me the Creator of the Cosmos would have all the answers not us puiny humans on earth. Whether some one believes in a Creator or not makes no difference to me, I love discussing in a rational manner why they do or don’t believe.Were their conclussions came from.There is so much of the Universe we don’t understand and probabily never will. But I’m willing to learn without telling others you have to agree with my answer. I have always found ignorance leads to prejudice, but once gain that is what works for me.
Peace