Why they "cannot" see

[spauline]

Do you feel comfortable linking us to your story, Spauline? No pressure, promise.

Carole

Sure, the better one is on my site:

My Reversion Story

thanks for asking!

 

[InLight247]

Do we 'offer it up?" It is easy to think:

• Maybe if I obtain more documentation?
• Maybe if I say it in another way using specific examples?
• Maybe if a few more people enter the discussion and support my view?
• If I don’t repond, innocent people out there will believe my opponent spoke the truth.
• Jesus needs me to save people from error!

And all such thoughts that keep the flame flickering.

But do any of these really work? Isn’t it true that we might inadvertently ‘enable’ the error to spread through using repetitive responses that continually publicize it?

For me, whether it is a discussion on a public forum or an affair among family members, I feel I can only express my opinion to certain degree. If all the evidences have been provided and the person not even budges, if after so many well-meaning (name removed by moderator)ut have been given but the person insists his original view like a re-playing broken record, I tend to leave the person alone.

This silence may very well let the person or others think the incorrect view is correct if the audience is lack of knowledge of the topic, or lack of independent thinking. In that case, I just have to put my trust in the Lord that He will enlighten the truth to the truth-seekers in due time.

 

[Joysong]

Spauline,

Thanks for sharing your journey. It reminds me so much of the witnesses I’ve heard on EWTN’s Journey Home. In many ways, I could identify with a lot of your experiences, for I walked a similar path in my school days. Our peers can be utterly cruel without realizing the tremendous damage they do with their jeering. Somehow I think God compassions us in our weakness and pain and looks for special opportunities to rescue that little lost sheep and carry it in His arms.

I too am a revert. So many times, I remember the words of Jesus who said, “She is forgiven much, because she has loved much.” My heart is so incredibly grateful that I will sing for eternity His goodness and praise.

Again, thanks for letting us know you. :hug3:

Carole

 

[Joysong]

InLight:

This silence may very well let the person or others think the incorrect view is correct if the audience is lack of knowledge of the topic, or lack of independent thinking. In that case, I just have to put my trust in the Lord that He will enlighten the truth to the truth-seekers in due time.

I see a very excellent spiritual gift of detachment in your being able to let go and keep silence, InLight. No anger, no finalizing put-downs, just a trusting release of the person to the One who judges justly and hold all things in His sovereign control. Amen!

It is tempting to worry that others will believe the incorrect view when we are silent, but I have seen God bring His truth to these souls in ways that are so much beyond my expectations. Aren’t we glad He is Omnipotent?

 

[ncjohn]

What a beautiful thread, filled with great insights!

As another revert who spent a good part of my life unable to “see”, I would offer the following.

First, we live in a society full of prosperity, which just does not lend itself at all to us finding a “need” for God. As someone commented previously, it is often only when we are at rock bottom, in a state of total desperation, that we are able to “give God a chance” since nothing else is working. Sometimes this actually takes root, but I have seen many who quickly forgot as soon as things started going ok again. In that way, those with less options and less distractions are actually likely more blessed in that they don’t get the option to depend on themselves.

Another issue is that most of what we get from society and our culture is a belief in “rugged individualism” and that depending on anyone is weakness. One is to pursue one’s own happiness and to heck with anyone else. Hardly the conditions for hearing the “still small voice.”

And as counter-intuitive as it may seem, I think that much of the “logical” evangelization that goes on is actually counter-productive. Faith is for the most part not logical. I was personally only able to infer it from seeing the gospel modeled in a way that brought joy to people, who could then tell me how God had been working in their lives when I developed enough interest to ask. Additionally, one can only hear such things from someone who has great credibility with that person. It’s one reason why I doubt that the knocking on doors approach bears any meaningful fruit.

The Church and the faith is ultimately based on the gospels. Any “doctrine” that isn’t supported by the gospels, and doesn’t lead one to live a life of joy based on the gospels, is doomed to being seen as false or irrelevant. When everything is fear-based “fire insurance” it is almost guaranteed to drive people the other way or. at the least, create indifference. Evangelization that emphasizes doctrine rather than relationship with God is a “no go” in my book, yet it is what most people are hit with as soon as they show the least interest in the faith.

It was well meaning Catholics in my early years who distorted the face of God for me and drove me from the Church. It was society that nurtured the idea that organized religion is a sham peopled by hypocrites. It was only meeting people actually living the gospel–“Actions speak louder than words”–at a time when nothing else was working and I was able to listen and see that made me willing to take the chance on putting my feet back inside the door.

Since then I have been greatly blessed, both by the people God has put in my path and by the times He has “talked” to me directly. Only God knows why I was given that blessing, but I do know that since I experienced it things have never been the same. I still sin and lose my focus from time to time, and I still get discouraged at times when it seems like God just isn’t watching out for this messenger He sent out like a lamb to the slaughter. But it always comes back to this for me: “Where else could I go Lord? You have the keys to eternal life.”

You can’t argue me to that point. You can only show me so I’ll understand when I get desperate enough to let God break through.

Peace,

 

[spauline]

Spauline,

Thanks for sharing your journey. It reminds me so much of the witnesses I’ve heard on EWTN’s Journey Home. In many ways, I could identify with a lot of your experiences, for I walked a similar path in my school days. Our peers can be utterly cruel without realizing the tremendous damage they do with their jeering. Somehow I think God compassions us in our weakness and pain and looks for special opportunities to rescue that little lost sheep and carry it in His arms.

I too am a revert. So many times, I remember the words of Jesus who said, “She is forgiven much, because she has loved much.” My heart is so incredibly grateful that I will sing for eternity His goodness and praise.

Again, thanks for letting us know you. :hug3:

Carole

You are welcome, and thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement, Joysong. I do not regret the emotional suffering from my past, because it brought me to God.

I pray blessings for you, too, Carole.
:hug3:

 

[spauline]

What a beautiful thread, filled with great insights!

As another revert who spent a good part of my life unable to “see”, I would offer the following.

First, we live in a society full of prosperity, which just does not lend itself at all to us finding a “need” for God. As someone commented previously, it is often only when we are at rock bottom, in a state of total desperation, that we are able to “give God a chance” since nothing else is working. Sometimes this actually takes root, but I have seen many who quickly forgot as soon as things started going ok again. In that way, those with less options and less distractions are actually likely more blessed in that they don’t get the option to depend on themselves.

Another issue is that most of what we get from society and our culture is a belief in “rugged individualism” and that depending on anyone is weakness. One is to pursue one’s own happiness and to heck with anyone else. Hardly the conditions for hearing the “still small voice.”

And as counter-intuitive as it may seem, I think that much of the “logical” evangelization that goes on is actually counter-productive. Faith is for the most part not logical. I was personally only able to infer it from seeing the gospel modeled in a way that brought joy to people, who could then tell me how God had been working in their lives when I developed enough interest to ask. Additionally, one can only hear such things from someone who has great credibility with that person. It’s one reason why I doubt that the knocking on doors approach bears any meaningful fruit.

The Church and the faith is ultimately based on the gospels. Any “doctrine” that isn’t supported by the gospels, and doesn’t lead one to live a life of joy based on the gospels, is doomed to being seen as false or irrelevant. When everything is fear-based “fire insurance” it is almost guaranteed to drive people the other way or. at the least, create indifference. Evangelization that emphasizes doctrine rather than relationship with God is a “no go” in my book, yet it is what most people are hit with as soon as they show the least interest in the faith.

It was well meaning Catholics in my early years who distorted the face of God for me and drove me from the Church. It was society that nurtured the idea that organized religion is a sham peopled by hypocrites. It was only meeting people actually living the gospel–“Actions speak louder than words”–at a time when nothing else was working and I was able to listen and see that made me willing to take the chance on putting my feet back inside the door.

Since then I have been greatly blessed, both by the people God has put in my path and by the times He has “talked” to me directly. Only God knows why I was given that blessing, but I do know that since I experienced it things have never been the same. I still sin and lose my focus from time to time, and I still get discouraged at times when it seems like God just isn’t watching out for this messenger He sent out like a lamb to the slaughter. But it always comes back to this for me: “Where else could I go Lord? You have the keys to eternal life.”

You can’t argue me to that point. You can only show me so I’ll understand when I get desperate enough to let God break through.

Peace,

thank you so much for sharing, John. You are so right: it is love in action that speaks so much louder than words. at all times when we speak, we must use compassion and love. If someone does not feel the need for God, or worse, doesn’t want God to exist, intellectualism is futile.

 

[Joysong]

Spauline:

You are welcome, and thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement, Joysong. I do not regret the emotional suffering from my past, because it brought me to God.

As did mine, too, Scott. I can honestly say, O happy fault!

Another benefit I have found is that our very sufferings enable us to have compassion on the same sufferings we encounter in our human family. You may recall the scripture which has become real in our circumstances: * “Because he himself was tested through what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested.”* [Heb. 2:18] There’s just something good about wearing another’s sandals in order to understand their suffering.

 

[spauline]

As did mine, too, Scott. I can honestly say, O happy fault!

Another benefit I have found is that our very sufferings enable us to have compassion on the same sufferings we encounter in our human family. You may recall the scripture which has become real in our circumstances: “Because he himself was tested through what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested.” [Heb. 2:18] There’s just something good about wearing another’s sandals in order to understand their suffering.

i agree wholeheartedly, Joysong. Bless you!

 

[Joysong]

ncjohn:

I was personally only able to infer it [faith] from seeing the gospel modeled in a way that brought joy to people, who could then tell me how God had been working in their lives when I developed enough interest to ask. Additionally, one can only hear such things from someone who has great credibility with that person. It’s one reason why I doubt that the knocking on doors approach bears any meaningful fruit.

I would say that you are in the camp spoken about earlier, that love modeled in action is a highly credible witness to you. This interests me very much to see how differently God brings each of His sheep home. Maybe that’s why I spent a lifetime reading the lives of the saints, and still do. It is a great good whenever this forum gives us an opportunity to talk to those who are living. :clapping:

The Church and the faith is ultimately based on the gospels. Any “doctrine” that isn’t supported by the gospels, and doesn’t lead one to live a life of joy based on the gospels, is doomed to being seen as false or irrelevant. When everything is fear-based “fire insurance” it is almost guaranteed to drive people the other way or. at the least, create indifference. Evangelization that emphasizes doctrine rather than relationship with God is a “no go” in my book, yet it is what most people are hit with as soon as they show the least interest in the faith.

Oh how dry and unfruitful is an approach based on doctrine alone. Ugh. I shouldn’t say this maybe, but that was my experience in Catholic grade school. We were graded on our memorization of the Baltimore Catechism, but in all of that mental labor, I never really encountered Jesus.

Fortunately, when I reverted in later life, those tenets I memorized came flooding back to mind, and I appreciated having learned them. Thanks be to God for my Catholic parents who were faithful in sending me there instead of a public school. But had I seen the faith modeled in my parental home, with faithful witness from them about how God acted in their lives, and with family prayer, I may have ‘caught’ the Spirit much earlier.

Do you think that those whose only approach to evangelization is from the doctrinal standpoint are those who really don’t know the Lord intimately? They only keep the rules and make rigid disciples like themselves?

Your comments are always so wise and helpful, and I thank you for sharing them with all of us.

Carole

 

[ncjohn]

Oh how dry and unfruitful is an approach based on doctrine alone. Ugh. I shouldn’t say this maybe, but that was my experience in Catholic grade school. We were graded on our memorization of the Baltimore Catechism, but in all of that mental labor, I never really encountered Jesus.

Fortunately, when I reverted in later life, those tenets I memorized came flooding back to mind, and I appreciated having learned them. Thanks be to God for my Catholic parents who were faithful in sending me there instead of a public school. But had I seen the faith modeled in my parental home, with faithful witness from them about how God acted in their lives, and with family prayer, I may have ‘caught’ the Spirit much earlier.

This was also my experience Carole. I learned all that stuff, then got really excited about First Communion. But after that, the Policeman God was introduced, who was waiting around the corner waiting for me to mess up so He could send me to hell. Unfortunately, the models I saw and the people who taught me, reinforced that, putting heavy demands on people while being very imperfect themselves. A whole lot of splinter grabbing while the beam in their own eyes was ignored. The hypocrisy of it just took its toll and I bolted at the first opportunity.

I too though was glad to have my “foundation” in place when I returned as it made the transition back much easier, though I have to admit that I pay little attention to doctrine and focus on doing my best to find God’s will and just do it.

Do you think that those whose only approach to evangelization is from the doctrinal standpoint are those who really don’t know the Lord intimately? They only keep the rules and make rigid disciples like themselves?

It’s not a judgment I can really make Carole as I can’t know what is going on in anyone’s heart. I’ve known some very rigid people who are at the same time very devoted people. What I can’t tell is if that devotion is from experience of God or just a very strong faith.

What I can say though is that when I encounter people who are able to just model and live joy without losing their sense of peace, and who aren’t out making all kinds of demands on others, I have yet to find one who hasn’t had some deep, personal encounter with the mercy of God. I’ve tried to convey that experience at times and get one of two reactions: either an immediate recognition from someone who has experienced it or a cynical look that implies a belief that no such thing really exists, except for canonized saints. The thought that God actually is trying to communicate with each and every one of us seems to be outside the belief system of many and I don’t see the Church doing a whole lot to help people understand that calling.

There was a comment I found in a previous post of yours

Another benefit I have found is that our very sufferings enable us to have compassion on the same sufferings we encounter in our human family.

I too have found this to be incredibly true. It has unquestionably been the people who have suffered in their own lives who I have seen being able to reach out to others who are suffering. There are others who seem to just have natural empathy, but it seems that to one who is suffering there just isn’t really any replacement for someone else who has “been there” and can just sit quietly beside you.

It is such a joy to encounter those here who have clearly experienced God in their lives and try to convey that experience, regardless of the responses they may receive. It may only be a relatively small group, but as Margaret Mead once said: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has. "

Peace,

 

[spauline]

i appreciate all that has been shared, although, I for one am not to throw doctrine out. Once the heart is softened, then the rigor of the faith can find room in your head.

there are serious questions of faith and morals. And it is rigorous theology and philosophy that must be used to show their sensibleness. It is just that LOVE must be the center of knowing and understanding God.

I think that is often the thing that turns people off to doctrine: that the only ones who harp it are the hard hearted hypocrites.

JPII was a man of intense doctrine and mysticism, but he had compassion and love, which made the difference.

Try, for example, to digest the Theology of the Body: profound, beautiful, rigorous theology there. But LOVE is at the center, and that is what makes it wonderful.

And i’m not attacking anyone, for i surmise I’ll get an amen from this.

just wanted to point out the doctrine and rigor is not the problem it is the MANNER in which it is shared that is the problem.

my two cents.

 

[Joysong]

Spauline:

just wanted to point out the doctrine and rigor is not the problem it is the MANNER in which it is shared that is the problem.

You’re right, and I agree. But not only the MANNER, but also forgetting to put the cart in its rightful position behind the horse. To a few I’ve met, doctrine is the only essence, without the heart. They remind me of walking theology manuals that forgot to become living temples reflecting the Lord of love.

Here’s an example that needs no further words: http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif

You spoke about John Paul II and his beautiful spirit and writings. Haven’t you been appalled and grieved to see the doctrinal crowd angry that he may be canonized soon, or worse yet, called “the Great?” I just want to cry at their lack of sensitivity.

How is it, Scott, that spiritual persons manage to find each other almost instinctively even before the person opens his mouth or writes much about his walk with God? Contrarily, the doctrinal folks always discover one another as well, and fit together very well in their analyses of others’ failures to walk the straight and narrow road.

Today’s reading about some belonging to Apollos, some to Paul, etc., reminds us there are divisions that ought not to be, and are still there in the Body of Christ. Paul indicates that it is because of rivalries and jealousies befitting the spiritually immature. As Paul also taught, may I always be careful what I preach to others lest I myself stumble and fall.

 

[spauline]

You’re right, and I agree. But not only the MANNER, but also forgetting to put the cart in its rightful position behind the horse. To a few I’ve met, doctrine is the only essence, without the heart. They remind me of walking theology manuals that forgot to become living temples reflecting the Lord of love.

Here’s an example that needs no further words: http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif

You spoke about John Paul II and his beautiful spirit and writings. Haven’t you been appalled and grieved to see the doctrinal crowd angry that he may be canonized soon, or worse yet, called “the Great?” I just want to cry at their lack of sensitivity.

How is it, Scott, that spiritual persons manage to find each other almost instinctively even before the person opens his mouth or writes much about his walk with God? Contrarily, the doctrinal folks always discover one another as well, and fit together very well in their analyses of others’ failures to walk the straight and narrow road.

Today’s reading about some belonging to Apollos, some to Paul, etc., reminds us there are divisions that ought not to be, and are still there in the Body of Christ. Paul indicates that it is because of rivalries and jealousies befitting the spiritually immature. As Paul also taught, may I always be careful what I preach to others lest I myself stumble and fall.

Oh, I hear ya, no Pharisees allowed. I know what you mean. Those who have suffered know the balance: there is truth, but without the conveyance of such with a heart of love and compassion, that truly desires the good of the person, and the quick praise of all that a person has in good, then, they are a clanging cymbal, as the Scripture puts it.

I’m with ya, Carole.

 

[Joysong]

But after that, the Policeman God was introduced, who was waiting around the corner waiting for me to mess up so He could send me to hell.

I hear you, John. http://bestsmileys.com/scared/8.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/flaming/10.gif HELL!

I too though was glad to have my “foundation” in place when I returned as it made the transition back much easier, though I have to admit that I pay little attention to doctrine and focus on doing my best to find God’s will and just do it.

Doesn’t Ezekiel or one of the prophets teach that God will write his law in our minds and hearts? I think that when we really allow Him to indwell us through faith and love, we become quickened to know what He would have us be and do. That is, excepting those intricate matters of doctrine for which we are blessed to have the internet and the Vatican library, or recourse to a priest if one’s faith in them is not totally destroyed by the “abuse crowd.”

 

[Joysong]

I am very indebted to BarbaraTherese. In her new thread about St. Paul, that came just as we were discussing this, her link had a powerful statement:

**Goodness by compulsion **

The keystone of Paul’s pastoral practice was his conviction that he could not impose a moral decision on his converts by means of a direct command. He felt that he could not treat a church as if it were an army of which he was the superior officer. This crucial insight for understanding his theology is perfectly illustrated by two incidents.

Onesimus was a slave who had injured his master Philemon. In the hope of mitigating his punishment he ran to Paul to beg him to intervene. Paul, of course, agreed, and his intercession is contained in the letter to Philemon. Paul tells Philemon that he has the authority to order him to do what is required, namely, to treat Onesimus as a brother in Christ and not as a guilty criminal. Yet, Paul continues, because I love you, I prefer to appeal to you (v. 8). It would have been simpler for Paul to give a command that expressed his desire for Onesimus, but he felt that he had no choice but to take the riskier option of persuasion. Why?

Fortunately no speculation is necessary, because Paul himself answers the question, ‘I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will’ (v. 14).

 

[Joysong]

Well, I’ll be doggone!!! I just had notice from Zenit tonight in my inbox, and you’ll never guess the topic. YES!!! It seems that God is almost shouting to us in order that we might hear Him.

Pope: Christianity an Encounter With a Person

VATICAN CITY, SEPT. 3, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Christianity is not a moral code or a philosophy, but an encounter with a person, says Benedict XVI.

"… this change of his [St. Paul’s] life, this transformation of his whole being was not the result of a psychological process, of a maturation or intellectual and moral evolution, but it came from outside: It was not the result of his thinking but of the encounter with Jesus Christ. In this sense it was not simply a conversion, a maturing of his ‘I,’ rather, it was death and resurrection for himself: A life of his died and a new one was born with the Risen Christ. …]

 

[brigid12]

i appreciate all that has been shared, although, I for one am not to throw doctrine out. Once the heart is softened, then the rigor of the faith can find room in your head.

there are serious questions of faith and morals. And it is rigorous theology and philosophy that must be used to show their sensibleness. It is just that LOVE must be the center of knowing and understanding God.

I think that is often the thing that turns people off to doctrine: that the only ones who harp it are the hard hearted hypocrites.

**JPII was a man of intense doctrine and mysticism, but he had compassion and love, which made the difference.
**
Try, for example, to digest the Theology of the Body: profound, beautiful, rigorous theology there. But LOVE is at the center, and that is what makes it wonderful.

And i’m not attacking anyone, for i surmise I’ll get an amen from this.

just wanted to point out the doctrine and rigor is not the problem it is the MANNER in which it is shared that is the problem.

my two cents.

JPII’s love was even evident to a protestant (with no family members that were Catholic). His obvious love/Love is what allowed me to read the CCC and agree with all that is there enthusiastically. I would not have wanted to spend so much time with reading the doctrine of The Church, unless I could see so openly the positive fruit that I saw in him. I can be both rigid and hypocrytical, but JPII allowed me to see beyond that to Him. (Brings tears to my eyes just to remember him-and that isn’t to say that I don’t adore our present Holy Father.)

 

[spauline]

JPII’s love was even evident to a protestant (with no family members that were Catholic). His obvious love/Love is what allowed me to read the CCC and agree with all that is there enthusiastically. I would not have wanted to spend so much time with reading the doctrine of The Church, unless I could see so openly the positive fruit that I saw in him. I can be both rigid and hypocrytical, but JPII allowed me to see beyond that to Him. (Brings tears to my eyes just to remember him-and that isn’t to say that I don’t adore our present Holy Father.)

Yes, JPII is a future saint. God bless him forever!

 

[Joysong]

Nick9:

Maybe then I would not waste so much time trying to convince willful disbelievers.

I was thinking about your words this morning after hearing today’s gospel. The apostles had been out all night fishing, but had caught absolutely nothing! What intrigued me was that Jesus brought the fish to them when they trusted Him and let down their nets.

May we pray for the sensitivity to await the timing of the draught of fish.