"Why They Leave" ~ A Practicing Mormon's Take on Why Many Resign From the LDS Church

[xixxvmcm85]

This is the most refreshing bit of LDS (non-official) media I’ve stumbled upon probably ever.

It is a power-point slide (directed toward other Latter-day Saints) produced in order to teach Mormons that not all (not even most) former Latter-day Saints leave the church due to “sin, hatred, possession, or coercion from ‘anti-Mormons’”. The author tackles many of the LDS skeletons (such as the varying versions of the first vision, Joseph Smith’s massive polygamy, alterations to the Book of Mormon, disparity between the Book of Abraham and what the original papyri actually say, Brigham Young’s racism, no-longer-taught doctrines (such as Blood Atonement, Adam-God Doctrine, Perpetual Polygamy, Inferiority of those with African ancestry, among others), as well as (and most importantly) the LDS reaction to those who leave the church.

Even with the author being so candid with such information, he still (somehow) finds a way to justify his church (which I don’t understand). Nevertheless, I’m curious what the Latter-day Saints who frequent CA think of this presentation.

What do you agree with?
What do you disagree with?
Do you consider the author to be “apostate”?
Any other comments you’d like to disclose to the world?

Thanks for your time.

mormonstories.org/whytheyleave/

 

[xixxvmcm85]

There’s one part of the presentation that caught me off guard (and hopefully a charitable ex-Mormon [like Rebecca] or an honest current-Mormon [like BDawg] will be able to answer my question):

What are the “baseball/soccer baptismal abuses” that the author speaks of @ 33:30?

He doesn’t go into any depth in explanation, merely brushes over them as an example of “Church Leadership Abuses”.

Thanks.

 

[abucs]

I think he tries hard for the church but i would have liked to have known what the core values of Mormonism are that he still holds onto.

I got the feeling that he felt that the basic assumptions of the church are all in doubt but that they should all stick together anyway for the sake of all of the good that the church undoubtedly provides.

Perhaps it would be a better idea to look for a church that you have confidence provides eternal truths that lead to salvation and then encourage people to spread the goodness under the umbrella of those steadfast eternal truths.

I think at the end of the day many people look to religion as something that has eternal truths. If you start jettising ‘church truths’ but stay in the structure of the church then you end up with secular humanism which in the end, understandably rejects notions of church anyway and unfortunately ends up taking it’s eyes off God and rejecting any notion of eternal truths as well.

 

[zerinus]

This is the most refreshing bit of LDS (non-official) media I’ve stumbled upon probably ever.

It is a power-point slide (directed toward other Latter-day Saints) produced in order to teach Mormons that not all (not even most) former Latter-day Saints leave the church due to “sin, hatred, possession, or coercion from ‘anti-Mormons’”. The author tackles many of the LDS skeletons (such as the varying versions of the first vision, Joseph Smith’s massive polygamy, alterations to the Book of Mormon, disparity between the Book of Abraham and what the original papyri actually say, Brigham Young’s racism, no-longer-taught doctrines (such as Blood Atonement, Adam-God Doctrine, Perpetual Polygamy, Inferiority of those with African ancestry, among others), as well as (and most importantly) the LDS reaction to those who leave the church.

Even with the author being so candid with such information, he still (somehow) finds a way to justify his church (which I don’t understand). Nevertheless, I’m curious what the Latter-day Saints who frequent CA think of this presentation.

What do you agree with?

Nothing! By that I mean, I don’t agree with he aim and objective or presentation of the talk. I don’t mean that nothing he said in there that might be true.

What do you disagree with?

I disagree with the motive for the production of the whole thing, as well as with much of its contents. I can’t list them for you, because I can’t remember them all, and I don’t have a written trenscript to make a list from. If you have a specific query about something he said, you can mention it, and it can be discussed.

Do you consider the author to be “apostate”?

I think he is on his way out! I think his main motive for producing it was to justify or hide his own sense of disconnect with the Church.

Any other comments you’d like to disclose to the world?

Loads! No room here to disclose them.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

There’s one part of the presentation that caught me off guard (and hopefully a charitable ex-Mormon [like Rebecca] or an honest current-Mormon [like BDawg] will be able to answer my question):

What are the “baseball/soccer baptismal abuses” that the author speaks of @ 33:30?

He doesn’t go into any depth in explanation, merely brushes over them as an example of “Church Leadership Abuses”.

Thanks.

I think he has a talk about that on his website. I listened to it a long time ago. You can send him an email and ask him to tell you.

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

There’s one part of the presentation that caught me off guard (and hopefully a charitable ex-Mormon [like Rebecca] or an honest current-Mormon [like BDawg] will be able to answer my question):

What are the “baseball/soccer baptismal abuses” that the author speaks of @ 33:30?

He doesn’t go into any depth in explanation, merely brushes over them as an example of “Church Leadership Abuses”.

Thanks.

The Mormon “Baseball Baptism” Era, by D. Michael Quinn

 

[BDawg]

There’s one part of the presentation that caught me off guard (and hopefully a charitable ex-Mormon [like Rebecca] or an honest current-Mormon [like BDawg] will be able to answer my question):

What are the “baseball/soccer baptismal abuses” that the author speaks of @ 33:30?

He doesn’t go into any depth in explanation, merely brushes over them as an example of “Church Leadership Abuses”.

Thanks.

Hi x…etc.

I’m sorry I can’t look at the presentation, because I’m on a Mac, and it says I have to be using IE on a PC. In my experience, reasons for leaving the Church are very complex. For instance, I know a guy who was divorced and sleeping around with various women, and I am positive he felt inwardly very guilty about that. (You can’t grow up Mormon and not feel at least a twinge.) But when he talked about why he left the Church, it was always all about various historical/theological issues. Was he justifying his behavior by coming up with intellectual excuses? Or were the intellectual issues the main stumbling blocks? How should I know? I don’t think even the people who leave the Church themselves (like my friend) can be trusted to give unbiased answers to such questions–it’s just too emotional. And maybe the mix is different for different people.

Anyway, here’s what I remember about the “baseball baptisms.” Back in the 60’s or so, some missionaries or mission president (I’m not sure which) had the bright idea of running youth sports programs to get “converts”. They actually got some kind of portable baptismal font, and baptized a bunch of kids. Of course, these “converts” didn’t stick around in the Church, and it caused everyone big headaches. Furthermore, it was blatantly unethical, so when the Church found out about it, they shut it down quick and instituted some rules to keep it from happening again.

The moral of the story, for me, is that we Mormons have our fair share of idiots.

 

[BDawg]

The Mormon “Baseball Baptism” Era, by D. Michael Quinn

Thanks, Rebecca. I thought the article was very well done and interesting. What a travesty!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi x…etc.

I’m sorry I can’t look at the presentation, because I’m on a Mac, and it says I have to be using IE on a PC. In my experience, reasons for leaving the Church are very complex. For instance, I know a guy who was divorced and sleeping around with various women, and I am positive he felt inwardly very guilty about that. (You can’t grow up Mormon and not feel at least a twinge.) But when he talked about why he left the Church, it was always all about various historical/theological issues. Was he justifying his behavior by coming up with intellectual excuses? Or were the intellectual issues the main stumbling blocks? How should I know? I don’t think even the people who leave the Church themselves (like my friend) can be trusted to give unbiased answers to such questions–it’s just too emotional. And maybe the mix is different for different people.

lol, yeah, the sin made the man.

Anyway, here’s what I remember about the “baseball baptisms.” Back in the 60’s or so, some missionaries or mission president (I’m not sure which) had the bright idea of running youth sports programs to get “converts”.

The “bright idea” came from the first presidency, it was a world-wide program.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks, Rebecca. I thought the article was very well done and interesting. What a travesty!

No doubt. I don’t believe all of what came from that era has been removed…mormon missionary work is still very goal oriented, by the numbers. When my parents were serving a mission they would send me their mission newsletter, there was always a page that had one of those goal thermometers, for the # of baptisms that month and year, with an associated chart listing each missionary pair and the # of baptisms for each of them. It was very competitive with the mission president rewarding the top baptizing pair.

Not as bad as starting sports programs, but I argue that some Mormons continue to use the YW, YM and LDS scouting for the same purpose.

 

[BDawg]

No doubt. I don’t believe all of what came from that era has been removed…mormon missionary work is still very goal oriented, by the numbers. When my parents were serving a mission they would send me their mission newsletter, there was always a page that had one of those goal thermometers, for the # of baptisms that month and year, with an associated chart listing each missionary pair and the # of baptisms for each of them. It was very competitive with the mission president rewarding the top baptizing pair.

Not as bad as starting sports programs, but I argue that some Mormons continue to use the YW, YM and LDS scouting for the same purpose.

It’s actually quite variable. Depends on whether you get a “super-salesman” type jack*** as a mission president. Most of them are much more mellow.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s actually quite variable. Depends on whether you get a “super-salesman” type jack*** as a mission president. Most of them are much more mellow.

haha, that is pretty funny. I knew the mission pres, he was my neighbor, he hooked my parents up to his mission. I never knew him to be a jackass.

Also, I would say that this is an example of encouraging the I-It relationship…get baptized, become a shiny happy people holding hands. Going after the material, which IMNSHO, everything about Mormonism is going after the material, so you can’t really help yourselves as coming across that way.

And I know that missionaries still prey on the emotionally vulnerable. Yet another I-It situation.

 

[why_me]

The Mormon “Baseball Baptism” Era, by D. Michael Quinn

I have heard of similiar incidents in Latin America during that time frame. I think that overzealots did exist in the lds mission field. But the intent was good from their point of view: to bring people to the truth and to god. But the strategy was flawed of course.

 

[why_me]

And I know that missionaries still prey on the emotionally vulnerable. Yet another I-It situation.

All religions tend to prey on the emotionally vulnerable, including the catholic faith. But the lds and the catholics do not search them out in particular. For lds missionaries, the emotionally vulnerable may be willing to talk to seek out comfort and solutions to their earthy problems. But this would be quite normal when the world can be a rather problematic and alienating place.

 

[BDawg]

All religions tend to prey on the emotionally vulnerable, including the catholic faith. But the lds and the catholics do not search them out in particular. For lds missionaries, the emotionally vulnerable may be willing to talk to seek out comfort and solutions to their earthy problems. But this would be quite normal when the world can be a rather problematic and alienating place.

For Pete’s sake, some of the Crusades were against heretics, rather than Muslims, and the RCC specifically authorized swordpoint conversions! I’d say it’s a universal tendency to go overboard about converting people to your own POV.

 

[why_me]

John brings up some good points in his presentation. Unfortunately, he has left his baby, Mormonstories. It was very time comsuming. He made an announcement a year ago that he was tired of it.

Mormonstories did a wonderful job for lds non-members and for lds members. He brought a touch of class to the internet.

It is true, that the ldschurch can paint a black and white picture of the lds church. And it can get them into some trouble when they do so, especially now with the Internet. But I don’t think that reason is to deceive the people. The reason is more simple: simplicity can lead to the holy spirit. The mormon church’s foundation is the book of mormon. If that book is true, all other things do not matter. Now if it is false, then the lds church is false. It is really that simple.

 

[RebeccaJ]

All religions tend to prey on the emotionally vulnerable, including the catholic faith. But the lds and the catholics do not search them out in particular. For lds missionaries, the emotionally vulnerable may be willing to talk to seek out comfort and solutions to their earthy problems. But this would be quite normal when the world can be a rather problematic and alienating place.

Tell that to the RMs who have told me they went through obituaries and searched out the people who were named as living relatives.

 

[RebeccaJ]

For Pete’s sake, some of the Crusades were against heretics, rather than Muslims, and the RCC specifically authorized swordpoint conversions! I’d say it’s a universal tendency to go overboard about converting people to your own POV.

Yes, which the RC has learned from…still seems the LDS have a ways to go.

 

[Ahimsa]

Yes, which the RC has learned from…still seems the LDS have a ways to go.

The LDS is still in diapers, historically speaking, whereas Catholicism is a junior in college. The LDS have much to learn.

 

[zerinus]

Hi x…etc.

I’m sorry I can’t look at the presentation, because I’m on a Mac, and it says I have to be using IE on a PC.

You can install a virtual machine on your Mac, and run Windows in your Mac! There are several, but from my exerience (with Windows) VMware is best. They have a free version of it for Windows. I don’t know if they have one for the Mac as well. Take a look at these:

vmware.com/products/fusion/
news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9760910-1.html

The talk is intresting to listen to. Not inspiring, but interesting.

zerinus