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Crusader
Guest
The Tridentine Mass was unknown to the Apostles. It wouldn’t be invented for nearly 500 years after their passing from earth…
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Iohannes
Guest
Here goes Crusader, the master scholar of liturgy saying that the New Mass was the Mass of the Apostles.
Back it up with proof will ya.
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Iohannes
Guest
The Roman Mass was not invented. There is something called organic development that happened.
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Agomemnon
Guest
Revisionist history should not be used to support your ‘opinion’.
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katolik
Guest
So somehow the TLM appeared out of dust you say? Cool, I thought that the Liturgical RItes of the Church all come from the Apostles.
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Crusader
Guest
The “tlm” was certainly not the Mass of the Apostles. The Novus Ordo Mass is far similiar to the Mass of the Apostles…
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Crusader
Guest
So says you.
It’s amusing to see “traditionalists” learn that their vaunted “tlm” is nothing like the Mass celebrated in the eary church…
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
Way to mischaracterize my post, Crusader. I specifically worded it with “I explain that *I find” *because it’s a recognition of the subjectivity involved. If I were arguing that on the tongue were the only reverent way to receive I would have left it at “I explain that.” I understand qualifiers and know when I want to use them. The point of my post was not a rant about reception of communion. It was meant to convey that those who don’t understand my attachment to the old ways normally (note: that’s another qualifier) don’t even use reverence as a category.
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drforjc
Guest
I look at the example of the secular world. Take, for instance, the dignity and solemnity that surround important government functions. Presidential inaugurations would be an example. People are dressed up, there is an atmosphere of formality and a ritualized rather than spontaneous order. The same is true of the important events in the British monarchy.
It seems to me that even secular society recognizes the need for ceremony and ritual and formality in certain important events, and the parallel in the religious milieu is the Mass.
It seems to me that even secular society recognizes the need for ceremony and ritual and formality in certain important events, and the parallel in the religious milieu is the Mass.
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kk1727
Guest
Contemplation: The silence that is observed in the Classical Roman Rite (‘TLM’) is more conducive to spiritual contemplation. Especially during the Canon. It is often quoted that Vatican II called for ‘active’ participation. Well . . . yes and no. The Latin in the text says actuoso. Fr. Stravinkas makes a good case that this is to be understood not so much as active in the sense of external participation but rather as actual in the sense of interiorization. And this development would organically follow that of the Liturgical Reform, the Encyclical Mediator Dei, even the 1958 instruction De Musica Sacra. Certainly external particpation is encouraged, but it doesn’t mean a whit if our participation isn’t interior first. Our external participation of the Mass proceeds from our internal participation.
The main problem as I see it has been one of catechesis. Simply put even though the Mass has been put into the vernacular, the faithful still don’t understand what’s going on. I learned more about the Mass by studying the Classical Roman Rite from my grandfathers Sunday Missal (1962). I have attended Byzantine Catholic liturgies (Ruthenian and Ukranian), and this helped me also to interiorize my participation in the Mass. I’ve learned to love the celebration of Mass according to the 1962 Missale Romanum. Until the clergy get more active in teaching the Mass and the faithful become more active in learning the Mass the misunderstandings of liturgy that are the root cause of abuses will persist.
The main problem as I see it has been one of catechesis. Simply put even though the Mass has been put into the vernacular, the faithful still don’t understand what’s going on. I learned more about the Mass by studying the Classical Roman Rite from my grandfathers Sunday Missal (1962). I have attended Byzantine Catholic liturgies (Ruthenian and Ukranian), and this helped me also to interiorize my participation in the Mass. I’ve learned to love the celebration of Mass according to the 1962 Missale Romanum. Until the clergy get more active in teaching the Mass and the faithful become more active in learning the Mass the misunderstandings of liturgy that are the root cause of abuses will persist.
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Crusader
Guest
So very true!
I think if I was a bishop I would order thousands of copies of Jimmy Akin’s tiny booklet Mass Appeal and build a short seminar around it.
That sort of grassroots approach could really transform an (arch)diocese.
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Iohannes
Guest
Crusader, there is something called Organic Development.
The Novus Ordo Missae was not the Mass of the Apostles, you do not even know how they celebrated Mass back then. You have proof and you are indeed sad.
The Novus Ordo Missae was not the Mass of the Apostles, you do not even know how they celebrated Mass back then. You have proof and you are indeed sad.
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Crusader
Guest
I know that the Novus Ordo Mass is much closer to the Mass celebrated by the Apostles than the Tridentine Mass.
Mass was originally celebrated in the vernacular – like the Novus Ordo Mass.
The priest faced the faithful (typically over a casket in the Catacombs) – like the Novus Ordo Mass.
No bells were used during the Apostles’ Mass – typically like the Novus Ordo Mass (sad!)
The faithful received in their hands, not on their tongues – very common in the Novus Ordo Mass in parts of the world.
I could go on and on…
It must really upset some “traditionalists” to finally come to grips with the fact that the Novus Ordo Mass is closer to the Mass of the Apostles than the Tridentine Mass…
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Of course, whether or not a particular development is “organic” and “novel” is somewhat subjective, a matter of opinion.
I would argue that the Missa Normativa, when said traditionally and reverently (and minus all the other, even non-abusive “options”) is an organic development even of the 1570 Missal. Paul VI thought so, and made his beliefs explicit (even while he mourned certain options and abuses).
I see nothing wrong, on the part of the Church, with wanting to respond to the needs of the times by making the Mass simpler, and easier to participate in.
Ultimately, it’s for the Church to decide whether any given innovation is organic, not a buncha arm-chair apologists.
The Missa Normativa and *Missa Tridentina * are essentially the same Mass. All the parts of the Tridentine Mass are found in the Missa Normativa, though mostly in simplified form. Reducing the number of Eleisons from nine to six is not a radical change, to take but one example.
I would argue that the Missa Normativa, when said traditionally and reverently (and minus all the other, even non-abusive “options”) is an organic development even of the 1570 Missal. Paul VI thought so, and made his beliefs explicit (even while he mourned certain options and abuses).
I see nothing wrong, on the part of the Church, with wanting to respond to the needs of the times by making the Mass simpler, and easier to participate in.
Ultimately, it’s for the Church to decide whether any given innovation is organic, not a buncha arm-chair apologists.
The Missa Normativa and *Missa Tridentina * are essentially the same Mass. All the parts of the Tridentine Mass are found in the Missa Normativa, though mostly in simplified form. Reducing the number of Eleisons from nine to six is not a radical change, to take but one example.
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DominvsVobiscvm
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Scholars now know this is false. The Fathers unanimously document the practice of Christians facing East in their prayer, the practice of orientation itself being adopted from Judaism (some pagans worshipped in certain directions as well).
How the heck do you know? Were you there?
Communion in the hand was practived in at least some places, but perhaps not everywhere. Again, some Jews celebrated the Passover in such a way that the Father of the family dipped an intincted morsel into the mouths of his family. In any event, the Church dropped this practice for a reason, and so far as I know it is not permitted in some countries, like the Diocese of Rome.
And “communion in the hand” is not a practice intrinsic to the Missa Normativa. The Church’s universal norm is still communion on the tongue; it is allowed in the hand only by way of exception in several countries, who themselves had to get an indult from Rome.
We have to keep in mind that, save for some fragmentary details, we don’t know a lot of the details behind early-Christian worship. Items like vestments, bells, candles, and incense, were all employed by the Jews in their worship, and so it’s not so far-fetched to believe that Christians employed these, in some capacity, in their own primitive worship.
And even if they didn’t, how can that possibly be an excuse for deliberately doing away with them (it’s one thing if it’s out of necessity)? What could posess a pastor, for example, for him to deliberately do away with, say, bells, something universally known throughout the Latin Church for centuries? Why would a priest want to do away with tradition? It might not be, strictly speaking, “illegal” for him to do so, but wouldn’t this strike anyone with a Catholic soul as being against the “spirit” of true liturgical reform?
That would be like me deliberately breaking with several of my own family’s traditions, like how we do Christmas or how we eat lentils on New Year’s (a Sicilian thing). Why would I deliberately violate these traditions, unless I had an animosity towards them (again, I’m not talking about necessity)? Is it healthy for a Catholic priest to do away with incense and bells, even if it is his “legal” right to do so? Is Catholic spirituality supposed to be minimalistic?
???
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Michael_Welter
Guest
Communion in the hand was first practiced at the Last Supper, by Jesus. Communion on the tongue came later. Both are equally valid.
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Iohannes
Guest
You own a Time Machine? Wow amazing.
Back it up with textual proof that the Novus Ordo Mass was closer to the Apostles.
Find me a Missal from that era and do a comparision to the Novus Ordo Missal.
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Iohannes
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I would disagree with you on the points that:
-The Calender has been radically altered
-The lectionary has been signifcantly altered
-Consecration prayers of the two are different
-the New Mass has a weaker Offertory
-and if it was the mass, why is there a need of an indult?
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JNB
Guest
The last supper was the first ordination of priests and the first concecration of Bishops, so this comparison is quite faulty. The apostles hands were concecrated, unlike the laity.
Michael Welter:
Michael Welter:
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Chris_in_Mich
Guest
Its been my experience, and this is a generalization, that the less traditional liturgy lends itself to non-Catholic beliefs being accepted, fewer vocations, and in general a less Catholic lifestyle. I think its accepted by most people that traditional parishes have laity that attend Mass, recieve the sacrements frequently, and take Catholicism more seriously then the more liberal parishes. Traditional parishes teach Catholic doctrine from the pulpit, liberal parishes seem to avoid topics like sin and purgatory in an attempt to have a broader appeal.
If you have a parish in which few go to confession, and few understand even the basics of Catholic belief and there is not much of an attempt to teach it but everyone is having a good time clapping their hands, even if they consider it reverent, its almost like a new religion. Even if this isn’t a good description of your friends church I know of some where it is.
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