Why Traditional Liturgy?

[Crusader]

Iohannes:

You own a Time Machine? Wow amazing.

Back it up with textual proof that the Novus Ordo Mass was closer to the Apostles.

Find me a Missal from that era and do a comparision to the Novus Ordo Missal.

You have already lost the debate. Rather than try to counter any of my points you offer an empty retort.

Remember early church: communion in hand, no bells, celebrant facing the faithful, etc.

I understand very well that you cannot refute what I have offered. End of discussion.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

The Calender has been radically altered

Not really. The Calendar’s been changing since Pius X’s reign. It was even Saint Pius who asked liturgists to remove, or “degrade” saints whose Lives and existence were historically doubtful.

It’s also consistent with the revivial of patristic and other studies in Catholic circles that also began under Pius’s reign.

-The lectionary has been signifcantly altered

Yeah, more Bible readings. This is a development completely consistent with the revivial of Bible study and reading in Catholic circles since the reign of Leo XIII.

-Consecration prayers of the two are different

Again, not really. In Latin they are identical, with the exception of a word or two. Granted, there are now, in my opinion, way too many options. But when employed properly this is not as radical as you make it out to be.

-the New Mass has a weaker Offertory

Oh, and this “radically alters” the Mass? Hardly. The Offertory is essentially the same, though granted the prayers aren’t as elaborate. There’s still an Oferrtory chant, a simplified Lavabo, and an Orate Fratres, etc.

-and if it was the mass, why is there a need of an indult?

Two reasons, I suppose:

1. Make traditionalists happy and faciliate communion with schismatics
2. It’s my gut feeling that the current Missal itself will be revised, at some future date under some future Pontiff, to conform itself even more to the true Spirit of Vatican II, maybe somewhere along the lines of the Missal of 1965.

Again, it’s for the Church to decide when a development is organic, not the faithful, whose subjective opinions on this are just that . . . subjective.

 

[Iohannes]

Crusader:

You have already lost the debate. Rather than try to counter any of my points you offer an empty retort.

Remember early church: communion in hand, no bells, celebrant facing the faithful, etc.

I understand very well that you cannot refute what I have offered. End of discussion.

Right Crusader, you have not given one iota of evidence at all to support your claims. GIVE ME PRIMARY SOURCES!!!

Look here, you are the one trying to prove that the Novus Ordo is close to the Early church, it is the burdern on you to provide the evidence, proof and text, not me. You are making the assertion that the Novus Ordo is closer early church. PROVE IT!!! Give me souces that there was facing the people will you.

Number one the early Church faced Ad Orientem, not versus ad populum. There is scriptural basis for this.There is no evidence that the Mass was facing the people.

 

[Iohannes]

Offertory Comparision:
TLM:

P: Receive, O Holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Thine unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for my countless sins, trespasses, and omissions; likewise for all here present, and for all faithful Christians, whether living or dead, that it may avail both me and them to salvation, unto life everlasting. Amen.

P: O God, Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew: by the mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath vouchsafed to share our manhood, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God; world without end. Amen.

NOM:

P: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.
R. Blessed be God for ever.
P: By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.

 

[Iohannes]

Now the Comparision of the Consecration prayers:

TLM:

Qui prídie quam paterétur, accépit panem in sanctus ac venerábiles manus suas, et elevátis óculis in cælum ad te Deum Patrem suum omnipoténtem, tibi grátias agens, bene+díxit, fregit, dedítque discípulis suis, dicens: Accípite, et manducáte ex hoc omnes:

Hoc est enim Corpus Meum.

Símili modo postquam coenátum est, accípiens et hunc præclárum Cálicem in sanctas ac venerábiles manus suas: item tibi grátias agens, bene+díxit, dedítque discípulis suis, dicens: Accípite, et bíbite ex eo omnes:

Hic est enim Calix Sánguinis Mei, novi et ætérni testaménti: Mystérium Fídei: qui pro vobis et pro multis effundétur in remissiónem peccatórum.

Hæc quotiescúmque fecéritis, in mei memóriam faciétis.

NOM:

Qui, pridie quam pateretur,accepit panem in sanctas ac venerabiles manus suas, et elevatis oculis in caelum ad te Deum Patrem suum omnipotentem, tibi gratias agens benedixit, fregit, deditque discipulis suis, dicens:

Accipite et manducate ex hoc omnes:
** hoc est enim Corpus meum, quod pro vobis tradetur.**

Simili modo, postquam cenatum est, accipiens et hunc praeclarum calicem in sanctas ac venerabiles manus suas, item tibi grtias agens benedixit, deditque discipulis suis, dicens:
Accipite et bibite ex eo omnes:

hic est enim calix Sanguinis mei novi et aeterni testamenti, qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum.
Hoc facite in meam commemorationem

Mysterium fidei.
3 Options

Notice that the Mysterium Fidei are in different places in the TLM and the NOM.

 

[Iohannes]

Crusader, you made the assertion that the NOM is closer to the Mass of the Apostles,

BACK IT UP with sources, from Bishops, priest, documents, missals, etc. Give me an ancient documents that claims that the Mass was celebrated facing the people.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Iohannes:

Obviously the two rites are different, I’m just saying that thei differences are not essential. Ommiting a couple of offertory prayers and slightly altering the Words of Institution do not constitute an entirely different rite.

Otherwise, you’d have to concede that the Tridentine Mass is a radical departure from Saint Gregory’s Mass, what with all the Gallic elaborations it has compared to that rite.

 

[Iohannes]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Iohannes:

Obviously the two rites are different, I’m just saying that thei differences are not essential. Ommiting a couple of offertory prayers and slightly altering the Words of Institution do not constitute an entirely different rite.

Otherwise, you’d have to concede that the Tridentine Mass is a radical departure from Saint Gregory’s Mass, what with all the Gallic elaborations it has compared to that rite.

I think the placing of the Mysterium Fidei makes a big difference and essential.
For the TLM, the Mysterium Fidei is:
WHICH FOR YOU AND FOR MANY SHALL BE SHED UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.

and for the New Rite is:
A. Christ has Died.
Christ is Risen
Christ will come again
3 other options.

*I have no idea why they would want to alter the Roman Canon in the 60’s starting with Bl. John XXIII puting St. Joseph, when it remained unaltered and stable for 1700 years.

By the Way, the Roman Canon is what makes the Latin rite, distinctly Latin.

 

[Crusader]

Iohannes:

Right Crusader, you have not given one iota of evidence at all to support your claims. GIVE ME PRIMARY SOURCES!!!

Look here, you are the one trying to prove that the Novus Ordo is close to the Early church, it is the burdern on you to provide the evidence, proof and text, not me. You are making the assertion that the Novus Ordo is closer early church. PROVE IT!!! Give me souces that there was facing the people will you.

Number one the early Church faced Ad Orientem, not versus ad populum. There is scriptural basis for this.There is no evidence that the Mass was facing the people.

You already lost this discussion…

The simple fact is that the Novus Ordo Mass is closer to the Mass celebrated by the Apostles.

It’s laughable to suggest that all Masses were celebrated in Latin back then. Are you suggesting that all the Apostles even spoke Latin? Highly doubtful…

Bells were not used in the Church until the 8th century…

Communion in the hand was the normative manner. “TAKE this all of you and eat It…”

You talk about “textural proof” and “organtic growth” (as if either proved your point), yet you offer zero to support your position.

 

[Chris-WA]

I’ve read through most of the posts here, and it’s great to see other lay Catholics who care so much about the Mass. It does seem to me, however, that we are bickering too much over smaller details instead of focussing on the main problem in masses I’ve seen in different parts of our country–the general lack of a sense of sacredness among the laity, and in some cases among our priests/deacons as well. I think this is mostly attributable to a severe lack of adult catechesis. We simply don’t realize the supernatural events that are taking place during the Mass, especially at the consecration of the Eucharist.

Just by the way people dress, as if they’re going out for a burger at the local diner, you can tell that they really don’t understand the true magnitude of what they’re receiving in the Eucharist. We all would dress up for a date, or a wedding, or a job interview, but what about for something far more important–the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? We seem to be treating the mass too casually–like it’s something ordinary and common.

Though we all can debate about musical taste, it does seem to me that many parishes today fall fall short of sacred or holy, and seem more interested in being jazzy and putting on a performance. I would much rather hear a single cantor accompanied by an organ than a huge band that puts on a concert and distracts me from why I’m really there. I also don’t think we need to make special masses for specific age groups (LIfe Teen). We should be attending as families. We shouldn’t be changing the way we celebrate Mass in order to attract more people. The Mass isn’t broken–it’s the people who won’t go because they think it’s “boring” who are broken. They think it’s boring because they have no idea what’s going on.

I guess overall I would say that we seem to be taking more and more of our ordinary world and incorporating it into the Mass, instead of taking the Mass out into the world to make it more holy.

 

[Iohannes]

Crusader,

I think you need to step back for a min.

1. I never claimed that bells were used in the Early Church. So shut up about it.
2. You are uncharitable to suggest that I said that all Mass was celebrated in Latin. I never said that. INFACT Jesus may have spoke in the non vernacular hebrew during the Last Supper, IIRC. HEBREW!!! SO BEAT THAT Vernacular!!! But then, the main issue is not language here.
3. In the Middle East Tradition in ancient times, the custom was to hand feed a guest. Communion in the hand at that time, was more reverent, and had a warning attached to it. Our time it came through abuse.
4. I have demanded textual proof and you have not given one iota.

Characteristics of the Early Church and how dissimilar was the NOM to the Mass of the apostles.

• had no pews, NOM* churches have pews, people stood
• men and women are seperated, in NOM* men and women are mixed
• there was non-ordained deaconess, NOM has no non-ordained deaconess.
  -Ad Orientem***, not versus ad populum, NOM is reguarly done versus ad populum
  -Women were banned in the sanctuary, NOM allows women in the Sanctuary.
  -There was not EMHC, NOM has tons of EMHC
  -Likely a form of the Roman Canon would have been used, not EPII, EPIII, or EPIV
  -no Nicene Creed
  -Dismissal of the Catechumens, NOM allows them to stay
  -No Gothic Chasuables
  -no rock and roll music
  -Celebrated Mass over relics, NOM stripped the requirements of relics in their altars.

***Bibilically justified, Second comming is from the East, Jesus is teh Sun of Justice. As some of the priests say “facing God”.

The fact is, that the NOM kept many of the medieval Accretions** and water them down.

**Orate Frates is medieval origin

*Some of the stuff happens in the TLM too, not saying its NOM only.

I think you are the loser, I asked for evidence, the only thing you have came up is more assertions and claiming that I said this and that. Again, you have not proven that the NOM is closer to the Apostolic times. The fact is, no one can know, how for sure it was celebrated, we know a few details but not enough. To this day, no one know exactly for sure how the Sarum Mass was celebrated, and you think you know how the Mass of the ancient times where celebrated??? Show me a missal from that era and explain to me how it was closer to the MAss of the apostles, but you cannot do so. Hey even, the Heretic Thomas Cranmer said that his BCP, a butcherized version of the Sarum Use was the service of the Early Church. Should I believe you or him?

Heck, by your assertions. I can even use that to prove that the NOM is closer to Cranmers BCP, because in the BCP, they had Communion-in-hand, no bells, no longer faced east, vernacular etc. Simply saying the early church had CinHand, no bells, vernacular does not prove anything unless because by that standard, if those some things were done to the TLM, all of the sudden, the TLM will be closer to the Early Church.

**If you want to prove the the Novus Ordo Missae is closer to the Early Church, you need a missal to missal comparision w/ the rubrics and rules side by side. ** Just like what I am trying to do with DV, while respectfully disagreeing with him.

You have to be joking me, unless you had a time Machine and actually saw what was going on you basically have no argument. But you resort to ridiculous assertions such as “There was no bells, no latin”. Speaking of Latin, I think St. Paul had to know some Latin.

At least the other posters who are disagreeing with me on other topics are being more reasonable than you.

Tell me that I lost the discussion again, it does not change fact that no one knows how exactly it was celebrated. You can bring up Communion in Hand, no bells.

 

[Crusader]

Iohannes:

Crusader,

I think you need to step back for a min.

1. I never claimed that bells were used in the Early Church. So shut up about it…

That’s as far as I’m going to read. You need to do something about your crude behavior here on this forum.

While it might bother you to find out that your vaunted “TLM” is no better than the Novus Ordo Mass, and that the Novus Ordo Mass is indeed closer to the Mass of the Apostles, it’s no reason for you to act in a rude and nasty manner.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Chris-WA:

I also don’t think we need to make special masses for specific age groups (LIfe Teen). We should be attending as families.

Chris-WA;

Peace, and greetings in the name of our Lord, Jesus Chirst.

The Life-Teen Mass that I attend is attended by families. In fact, there are actually more adults there than teens. Keep in mind that different people have different needs. That’s why the Pope said that the music for Mass should music in a style that is common to the local culture. Our Life-Teen Mass uses sacred music performed in a style that is common to the local culture.

Many of the parents who attend our Life-Teen Mass have returned to the Church as a result of their children bringing them back to Church. We even have a ministry designed to help those parents deepen their relationship with God, and learn their faith.

 

[deogratias]

Our Life-Teen Mass uses sacred music performed in a style that is common to the local culture

May I ask what is the local culture of your area of California that makes it unique and different than that of the rest of the U.S.?

 

[drforjc]

That’s why the Pope said that the music for Mass should music in a style that is common to the local culture.

Where did he say that?
Reading through Sacrosanctum Concilium, the closest thing I can find to such a statement is paragraph 119 but that seems more aimed at mission lands. The rest of Chapter VI, “Sacred Music,” just does not seem to jibe with that statement. It urges the preservation of the treasury of sacred music and gives pride of place to Gregorian chant, the pipe organ, etc.

I keep seeing the word “solemn” or “solemnly” popping up over and over in my English translation of SC (Austin Flannery, O.P., Costello Publishing Co/Dominican Publications, 4th printing, 1998)

 

[Iohannes]

Crusader:

That’s as far as I’m going to read. You need to do something about your crude behavior here on this forum.

While it might bother you to find out that your vaunted “TLM” is no better than the Novus Ordo Mass, and that the Novus Ordo Mass is indeed closer to the Mass of the Apostles, it’s no reason for you to act in a rude and nasty manner.

Then, stop putting words into my mouth.
You have only made assertions to your arguemnts, you have not back them up with hard evidence. Since you made that assertion, it is up to you to prove it, which you have not.

If you want to prove the the Novus Ordo Missae is closer to the Early Church, you need a missal to missal comparision w/ the rubrics and rules side by side.

 

[tom.wineman]

The litergy is becoming a free for all

Before long we will have to check the Christian pop charts to see what songs we are going to sing.

**A Boogaloo Mass ? **

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Iohannes, by your logic the pre-Gregorian Mass was an essentially different rite from what followed. Changing a couple of phrases from a Eucharistic prayer does not essentially change the rite. Don’t be ludicrous.

The Church is under no obligation to leave any prayer untouched for 1700 years. Since she invented it, it’s within her rights to alter it however she sees fit.

And some of the things you list for “Mass of the early Church” really aren’t true. For example, not all Masses were celebrated in catacombs, over relics, and ther was no requirement this should be done. Second, we don’t know what they had in the way of “sanctuaries” and whether or not women were allowed in them. They certainly would not have used the Roman Canon. The Eucharistic prayer would probably have been mostly improvised. And the chasubles (which would’ve been worn by everyone present, not just clergy, would also have been “Gothic” (i.e. free-flowing" not at all like the liturgical bibs that pass for “Roman” vestments; not that I don’t like them. I prefer them, except when they get rediculously small).

That having been said, Iohannes is absolutely correct in saying that true development is always organic. Do you disagree Crusader?

And Crusader, what say you about the points I brought up:

We have to keep in mind that, save for some fragmentary details, we don’t know a lot of the details behind early-Christian worship. Items like vestments, bells, candles, and incense, were all employed by the Jews in their worship, and so it’s not so far-fetched to believe that Christians employed these, in some capacity, in their own primitive worship.

And even if they didn’t, how can that possibly be an excuse for deliberately doing away with them (it’s one thing if it’s out of necessity)? What could posess a pastor, for example, for him to deliberately do away with, say, bells, something universally known throughout the Latin Church for centuries? Why would a priest want to do away with tradition? It might not be, strictly speaking, “illegal” for him to do so, but wouldn’t this strike anyone with a Catholic soul as being against the “spirit” of true liturgical reform?

That would be like me deliberately breaking with several of my own family’s traditions, like how we do Christmas or how we eat lentils on New Year’s (a Sicilian thing). Why would I deliberately violate these traditions, unless I had an animosity towards them (again, I’m not talking about necessity)? Is it healthy for a Catholic priest to do away with incense and bells, even if it is his “legal” right to do so? Is Catholic spirituality supposed to be minimalistic?

 

[Crusader]

A handful of ways in which the Mass of the Apostles differs from the Tridentine Mass:

• Holy Communion in hand.
• Flemish/Gothic chausables and not Roman chausables [AKA bulletproof vest(ments)].
• No bells.
• Use of the Vernacular.
• No use of Roman Canon or similiar EP.
• Celebrant faced the people. BOTH ad orientem AND ad populum are SIMULTANEOUSLY possible.
• Not all altars of sacrifice contained relics.
• No pews.
• No segregation of men and women.
• Women not “banned” from sanctuary.
• Likely use of lay Eucharistic ministers during some Masses.
• No pipe organs.
• No Gregorian Chant.

I’ll keep adding to the list…

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Crusader:

I’d really be interested in reading your response to some of the points I brought up to you in the previous post. Thanks!