Why "transgender" is a lie

[livingwordunity]

Comparative data of childhood and adolescence molestation in heterosexual and homosexual persons

A systematic review of mental disorder, suicide, and deliberate self harm in lesbian, gay and bisexual people

What is the farthest back you can remember?

3 years old. Which is more typical for females than males by the way.

Then you can’t know that you were born feeling the way you now feel. As the studies suggest, anything could have happened to you in the time you can’t remember to influence the way you identify yourself. Whatever bad thing that could have happened to you at that young of an age is not your fault, but you shouldn’t let it define you.

 

[jonathan_hili]

A so-called “sex change” operation is a misnomer because it’s not possible to change one’s DNA. XY will always be XY, and XX will always be XX. Even if surgery can make a man look like a woman or a woman look like a man it’s still only an appearance, a costume, a lie. The fact that “transgender” is included in the “gay” category of “LGBT” shows that they don’t even believe their own lie. For if a man really could change into a woman they would be going from “gay” to straight and would not be able to be counted among the “gays” anymore. Who does a “gay” man who thinks he can change into a woman hope to attract? Another “gay” man? If the surgery is convincing wouldn’t the “gay” partner be turned off by it? A straight man wouldn’t want them because he knows they aren’t a real woman unless they can be fooled. But how can someone be happy when they are living a lie? And what if the man who got fooled wants kids with the one who masquerades as a woman? How would the deceiver fake a pregnancy? The saying applies that goes “oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”. But as Jesus said, “the truth will make you free.”

While I don’t disagree with your general point that a man is a man, and a woman a woman, regardless of cosmetic surgical changes, I think we need to deal with people who suffer from gender identity disorder with more sensitivity. Someone who genuinely believes he or she is really another sex: physically male but mentally female (or vice versa) won’t be much convinced by what you say because of their own subjective conviction. I don’t know what it feels like, but I suspect it must be very confusing and full of emotional anguish to feel disgust at your own body, genitalia and wish you were another.

I think the best way to approach people who have transgender issues is, firstly, with the love of Christ, and secondly, with the truth that a mental state (particularly, a disordered condition) cannot judge a physical one. We are body and soul (mind), and shouldn’t divide the two to oppose one another.

 

[livingwordunity]

While I don’t disagree with your general point that a man is a man, and a woman a woman, regardless of cosmetic surgical changes, I think we need to deal with people who suffer from gender identity disorder with more sensitivity. Someone who genuinely believes he or she is really another sex: physically male but mentally female (or vice versa) won’t be much convinced by what you say because of their own subjective conviction. I don’t know what it feels like, but I suspect it must be very confusing and full of emotional anguish to feel disgust at your own body, genitalia and wish you were another.

I think the best way to approach people who have transgender issues is, firstly, with the love of Christ, and secondly, with the truth that a mental state (particularly, a disordered condition) cannot judge a physical one. We are body and soul (mind), and shouldn’t divide the two to oppose one another.

If I came across as judging I didn’t intend to. My intention is to discourage any who haven’t done it yet but are thinking about making the huge mistake of going through with a so-called “sex change” operation. There is at least one on this forum who has said that he plans to do so. I don’t think it’s possible to explain why it’s a mistake without hurting someone’s feelings. If someone has already made such a mistake all we can do is be compassionate to them. It’s kind of like how we have ministries for women who have gone through an abortion to show compassion for them, but we also try to tell people about why abortion is so ugly and destructive so that the women who are thinking about it might have a change of heart so that the tragedy and horror of it might be prevented. The forces of evil are telling homosexuals that they will be happy if they get a “sex change” operation. And the other aspect to this is how the government now wants to force the rest of us to pay for the evil deed.

 

[jonathan_hili]

If I came across as judging I didn’t intend to. My intention is to discourage any who haven’t done it yet but are thinking about making the huge mistake of going through with a so-called “sex change” operation. There is at least one on this forum who has said that he plans to do so. I don’t think it’s possible to explain why it’s a mistake without hurting someone’s feelings. If someone has already made such a mistake all we can do is be compassionate to them. It’s kind of like how we have ministries for women who have gone through an abortion to show compassion for them, but we also try to tell people about why abortion is so ugly and destructive so that the women who are thinking about it might have a change of heart so that the tragedy and horror of it might be prevented. The forces of evil are telling homosexuals that they will be happy if they get a “sex change” operation. And the other aspect to this is how the government now wants to force the rest of us to pay for the evil deed.

True. I have a friend who has gone through a partial sex change, is on hormones, etc. Needless to say, his style of life - which is very self-destructive - is not something I would encourage anyone to imitate.

 

[CopticChristian]

True. I have a friend who has gone through a partial sex change, is on hormones, etc. Needless to say, his style of life - which is very self-destructive - is not something I would encourage anyone to imitate.

JH,

The reality is that this is not in any way a “sex change”. The sex remains the same.

Secondly you may want to inform your friend that by wishing, desiring, prefering, believing to be other than what they are embarking on this journey they are causing their life to be more complicated. Hormones are not meant to be taken because you want to…any person doing a search on the complications, dangers, side effects of unnecessary Hormone ingestion will find that doing this puts their life at risk…all because of an imagined belief.

Few systematic studies on side effects of cross-gender hormone treatment in transsexuals have been published. Meyer et al. (1986) found in 90 transsexuals only liver enzyme abnormalities and mild elevations of serum cholesterol and triglycerides. Case reports have described pulmonary embolism, cerebral thrombosis, myocardial infarction, prostatic metaplasia, and breast cancer in estrogen-treated male-to-female transsexuals and recurrent myocardial infarction in a female-to-male transsexual treated with androgens.
In 1989 we published a retrospective study on mortality and morbidity in 303 male-to-female and 122 female-to-male transsexuals who have been treated and followed at our clinic for 6 months to more than 13 years (Asscheman, Gooren & Eklund, 1989). Mortality in male-to-female transsexuals was 6-fold in-creased compared with the general population. This was in particular due to suicide and death by unknown cause. Side effects were common m the male-to-female transsexual patients.

Significant increases were observed for venous thrombosisi pulmonary embolism, depressive mood changes, hyperprolactinemia and elevated liver enzymes in the male-to-female transsexual patients. In the female-to-male group acne (12.3%) and weight increases > 10% (17.2%) were the main side effects.

The occurrence of serious side effects (e.g., the prevalence of thromboembolic disease of 2.1% in patients below 40 years of age and 12% in patients above 40 years) was, however, not rare. These side effects present a difficult dilemma in hormonal gender reassignment. The cornerstone of the decision to prescribe cross-gender hormones remains with the explanation of the possible side effects to the patients and careful clinical judgment.

 

[jonathan_hili]

Thanks, Coptic.

 

[marymary1975]

If someone is born with a vagina they are a female. If they are born with a penis they are a male. Simple. If they are born “intersex” I’ve never personally known of any baby that has been born that way. If it does happen it’s extremely rare and would not make up the majority of the cases of people seeking a “sex change” operation.

I agree with this. While it is true that hermaphrodites exists and there are chromosomical disorders as mentioned previously their rates are in the 1 per millions, so it doesn’t apply to the 99% of transgenders. If you grab a dog and put a cat custom on it, you can call it a cat as much as you want and you can believe as much as you want that it is cat but the reality is it will remain a dog and if it has offsprings is going to have puppies not kitties and is going to have the genetic composition of a dog. The person who placed the custom on the dog is lying to himself and living a lie, which may make him happy but at the end of the day, is still a lie. Same thing here. A transgender can do everything medically possible to look like the other sex but at the end of the day …if female to male, will never be able to produce sperm or grow testicles, and if male to female, will never have a uterus.

 

[Faithdancer]

A so-called “sex change” operation is a misnomer because it’s not possible to change one’s DNA. XY will always be XY, and XX will always be XX. Even if surgery can make a man look like a woman or a woman look like a man it’s still only an appearance, a costume, a lie. The fact that “transgender” is included in the “gay” category of “LGBT” shows that they don’t even believe their own lie. For if a man really could change into a woman they would be going from “gay” to straight and would not be able to be counted among the “gays” anymore. Who does a “gay” man who thinks he can change into a woman hope to attract? Another “gay” man? If the surgery is convincing wouldn’t the “gay” partner be turned off by it? A straight man wouldn’t want them because he knows they aren’t a real woman unless they can be fooled. But how can someone be happy when they are living a lie? And what if the man who got fooled wants kids with the one who masquerades as a woman? How would the deceiver fake a pregnancy? The saying applies that goes “oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”. But as Jesus said, “the truth will make you free.”

Well said, LWU. Of course, we must remember that in 2013 America, all morality is relative and it is the individual’s right to accept or reject any of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church (which are grounded in divine law) as long as they “aren’t hurting anyone else” and it “feels good.”

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

Stephanie,

Then you should know that in your early years as a child you were unable to formulate a representative map of the world and why parents could play peek a boo with you. Our minds in infancy cannot recall from moment to moment the presence or absence of a thing. Sometime between infancy and 3 you formed a recalled fixed image of the world that you could represent in your mind and without any history of events there is no way of knowing how you came to imagine that you were other than what you were created to be.

But as an adult I can make sense of what I was feeling and thinking back then.

 

[Faithdancer]

Another response to the original post:
If God made me phenotypically and genotypically a male, and I am using right reason, I cannot ever believe myself to be “transgender.” It’s just not possible. Of course, I could obstinately and deliberately reject what God made me which, by extension, would entail rejecting Him. But that deny me Heaven, which would also be irrational.

 

[CopticChristian]

But as an adult I can make sense of what I was feeling and thinking back then.

SP,

Then you are a marvel that defies Piaget’s theory of cognitive development. Your world was formed prior to that by outside influences and whatever recollection you have is astounding.

Sensorimotor stageThe sensorimotor stage is the first of the four stages in cognitive development which “extends from birth to the acquisition of language”.“In this stage, infants construct an understanding of the world by coordinating experiences (such as seeing and hearing) with physical, motoric actions. Infants gain knowledge of the world from the physical actions they perform on it. An infant progresses from reflexive, instinctual action at birth to the beginning of symbolic thought toward the end of the stage. Piaget divided the sensorimotor stage into six sub-stages”: from birth until the age of two, infants have only senses: vision, hearing, and motor skills, such as grasping, sucking, and stepping.

The first stage is called the Sensorimotor stage (birth to about age 2). In this stage knowledge of the world is limited (but developing) because it’s based on physical interactions/experiences. The child learns that he is separate from his environment and that aspects of his environment continue to exist even though they may be outside the reach of his senses. Behaviors are limited to simple motor responses caused by sensory stimuli. In this stage according to Piaget, the development of object permanence is one of the most important accomplishments at the sensorimotor stage. (Object permanence is a child’s understanding that objects continue to exist even though they cannot be seen or heard).

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Another response to the original post:
If God made me phenotypically and genotypically a male, and I am using right reason, I cannot ever believe myself to be “transgender.” It’s just not possible. Of course, I could obstinately and deliberately reject what God made me which, by extension, would entail rejecting Him. But that deny me Heaven, which would also be irrational.

You do know the difference between God’s active and passive wills right?

 

[Faithdancer]

SP,

Then you are a marvel that defies Piaget’s theory of cognitive development. Your world was formed prior to that by outside influences and whatever recollection you have is astounding.

I studied this in teacher education classes Coptic, and if I’m not mistaken it is possible for individuals to experience delayed or incomplete cognitive development. By Piaget’s principles, for example, what we commonly call “arrested adolescence” is in part due to an individual’s partial or complete lack of progression from the “concrete operational” stage to the “formal operational” stage. I posit that this is present in varying degrees in much of the population. In moral theological terms, when we became fully actualized from a cognitive standpoint we are also taking a large step forward toward using our reason rightly, in accordance with natural law. However, this obviously breaks down frequently as well and other influences come into play to deter our use of right reason- our own hubris and sinfulness.

If I convince myself that I am not what God obviously made me- a male human being- than I am either acting with faulty (or no) reasoning, or I am being prideful and think that I know better than God. If the former, I may require secular therapy but if the latter, I require absolution and spiritual direction. Of course, the two causes for my self-delusion may be interrelated and inseparable.

We all have our crosses to bear, and certainly the ‘transgender personality’ is a cross and those who experience it deserve our greatest love and support. However, pretending that “transgender” is reasonable and is okay with God is not helping those who have the condition.

 

[CopticChristian]

I studied this in teacher education classes Coptic, and if I’m not mistaken it is possible for individuals to experience delayed or incomplete cognitive development. By Piaget’s principles, for example, what we commonly call “arrested adolescence” is in part due to an individual’s partial or complete lack of progression from the “concrete operational” stage to the “formal operational” stage. I posit that this is present in varying degrees in much of the population. In moral theological terms, when we became fully actualized from a cognitive standpoint we are also taking a large step forward toward using our reason rightly, in accordance with natural law. However, this obviously breaks down frequently as well and other influences come into play to deter our use of right reason- our own hubris and sinfulness.

If I convince myself that I am not what God obviously made me- a male human being- than I am either acting with faulty (or no) reasoning, or I am being prideful and think that I know better than God. If the former, I may require secular therapy but if the latter, I require absolution and spiritual direction. Of course, the two causes for my self-delusion may be interrelated and inseparable.

We all have our crosses to bear, and certainly the ‘transgender personality’ is a cross and those who experience it deserve our greatest love and support. However, pretending that “transgender” is reasonable and is okay with God is not helping those who have the condition.

FD,

Here is the rub…

Do you seek therapy to conjour up support for your belief, preference, desire and imagined self…

or

Do you seek therapy to change this belief, preference, desire and imagined self…

The results of therapy are different and are dependent on the reason for seeking therapy.

 

[Faithdancer]

You do know the difference between God’s active and passive wills right?

God is never completely passive, only ‘actively passive.’ Are you saying that He could allow me to delude myself that I am really a girl? I suppose He could certainly do so, but unless it were in order to bring forth good from my self-deception, He would not do so. And since He has not done so to date, I don’t expect it to happen, nor do I want it to happen. I do, however, feel compassion for those who are thus confused.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

God is never completely passive, only ‘actively passive.’ Are you saying that He could allow me to delude myself that I am really a girl? I suppose He could certainly do so, but unless it were in order to bring forth good from my self-deception, He would not do so. And since He has not done so to date, I don’t expect it to happen, nor do I want it to happen. I do, however, feel compassion for those who are thus confused.

That has a smell of Calvinism to it.

There is what God causes through his active will and what God allows through his permissive will. God does not make people born blind, deaf et cetera.

 

[aux1]

God is never completely passive, only ‘actively passive.’ Are you saying that He could allow me to delude myself that I am really a girl?

Hi Faithdancer,

In my part of the world we have a saying which goes like A fed person cannot understand a hungry person. You’re a perfect example of this.

To use this analogy, you’ve never felt hunger, so you believe that it doesn’t really exist (because why would God allow you to be hungry?!) so those who are hungry have must have deluded themselves.

 

[PatrickSebast]

Patrick,

This clouds the issue and is a smoke screen for an imagination. Anomalies do not equate to the imagined belief that a woman is trapped in a mans body.

Genetic Anomalies exist.

Transgender/Transexual=I believe, I wish, I desire, I prefer to be a woman even though I am a man and in no way is it related to a genetic anomaly…

Apple to apple as a comparison it is not

Apple to orange as a comparison it is

This doesn’t cloud the issue at all. Transgender people are an anomaly. In many cases there are either genetic or biological anomalies that cause it. Thus it is not a “lie” as the original poster claimed, but a very real problem/struggle that some people face. One that is difficult to have a black and white answer for.

You are the one who is arbitratily trying to define Transgender/Transexual people as individuals who have a wish to be another gender without relation to a substantial medical problem. Even in the case that a person doesn’t have one of the numerous potential physiological issues that could cause confusion, it isn’t like the other group is just composed of individuals who arbitrarily decided to be transgender to offend God, society and nature. It is likely the result of a significant mental/social issue.

Would I say that it is always reacted to or treated in the proper way or that sex change surgeries are good for anyone who wants them? No, I would not.

That doesn’t mean calling it a lie is at all accurate or even close to charitable.

Also the OP’s questioning of wikipedia as a source when I was clearly referencing a very real disease is just another indication that there is little concern with the reality of the matter when it comes to expressing the original opinion.

 

[PatrickSebast]

I agree with this. While it is true that hermaphrodites exists and there are chromosomical disorders as mentioned previously their rates are in the 1 per millions, so it doesn’t apply to the 99% of transgenders. If you grab a dog and put a cat custom on it, you can call it a cat as much as you want and you can believe as much as you want that it is cat but the reality is it will remain a dog and if it has offsprings is going to have puppies not kitties and is going to have the genetic composition of a dog. The person who placed the custom on the dog is lying to himself and living a lie, which may make him happy but at the end of the day, is still a lie. Same thing here. A transgender can do everything medically possible to look like the other sex but at the end of the day …if female to male, will never be able to produce sperm or grow testicles, and if male to female, will never have a uterus.

CAIS is estimated as occurring at rates of 1 in 20,000 births. It is only one disease out of several that can cause similar problems. Transgenderism is certainly more frequent, but still relatively uncommon with many estimates around the 1 in 2000 area. So it seems pretty likely that it applies to a much greater portion than 1% of transgenders. You are making blind assumptions about people and their state of being when the research and understanding of the subject by people at the top of the field is still considered flimsy at best.

 

[CopticChristian]

This doesn’t cloud the issue at all. Even in the case that a person doesn’t have one of the numerous potential physiological issues that could cause confusion, it isn’t like the other group is just composed of individuals who arbitrarily decided to be transgender to offend God, society and nature. It is likely the result of a significant mental/social issue.

Would I say that it is always reacted to or treated in the proper way or that sex change surgeries are good for anyone who wants them? No, I would not.

That doesn’t mean calling it a lie is at all accurate or even close to charitable.

Also the OP’s questioning of wikipedia as a source when I was clearly referencing a very real disease is just another indication that there is little concern with the reality of the matter when it comes to expressing the original opinion.

Aux,

Transgender people are an anomaly. In many cases there are either genetic or biological anomalies that cause it.

Show me where you find these genetic and biologic anomalies that meet your criteria, because they do not mee the DSM IV critieria…show me the evidence for this statement.:coffeeread:

Genetic and Biologic anomalies do not equate to Gender Dysphoria without these anomalies that wish, desire or preference…as noted by the DSM IV

A A strong persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desirefor any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). Inchildren, the disturbance is manifested by four (or more) of thefollowing:

Repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, theother sex.
In boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; Ingirls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing.
Strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make believeplay or persistent fantasies of being the other sex.
Intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimesof the other sex.
Strong preference for playmates of the other sex.

and

and the note, DISTURBANCE,…

C. The disturbance is not concurrent with physical intersex condition.

Thus it is not a “lie” as the original poster claimed, but a very real problem/struggle that some people face. One that is difficult to have a black and white answer for.

You are the one who is arbitratily trying to define Transgender/Transexual people as individuals who have a wish to be another gender without relation to a substantial medical problem.

You are incorrect…the DSM IV as noted above defines this, not me…if you want to go against the grain then where is it you get your information to say that I am arbitrarily doing anything except referencing the DSM IV…I suggest you rethink this and retract your statement.:dts:

What is the reality of the matter in your opinion…I am all ears…teach me…