Why Trust the Hierarchy?

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Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!

This had always been the sin of my dad; he’s more or less a theist fallen away Catholic-never had any ideas about changing religions thank God, but he never trusted priests or saw what made them special.

For the longest time I shared that, why praise old men who can be just as big of sinners as their laity? I’ll be honest on this point, anytime I read about more child abuse cases that go on it just makes me hate the trust Catholics put in priests…

And beyond that, in an End of the World senario-if anything where to happen to the top part of the hierarchy where all the Cardinals and the Pope perished along with the total loss of communication between the bishops located on different continents what would determined who becomes the new legitimate Pope? I could only forsee that would mean a Pope or Anti-Pope for every continent; what would determine which would be legitimate.
 
Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!

This had always been the sin of my dad; he’s more or less a theist fallen away Catholic-never had any ideas about changing religions thank God, but he never trusted priests or saw what made them special.

For the longest time I shared that, why praise old men who can be just as big of sinners as their laity? I’ll be honest on this point, anytime I read about more child abuse cases that go on it just makes me hate the trust Catholics put in priests…

And beyond that, in an End of the World senario-if anything where to happen to the top part of the hierarchy where all the Cardinals and the Pope perished along with the total loss of communication between the bishops located on different continents what would determined who becomes the new legitimate Pope? I could only forsee that would mean a Pope or Anti-Pope for every continent; what would determine which would be legitimate.
Do you think that a single member (clergy), of the Church is the one we trust?

Why would I do that, unless there was clear evidence that they were teaching in union with the Church?

Like any other human, members of the clergy must earn our trust. However, by nature of their training and appointment by the Church they get a bit of head start.

Jesus promised that He would be with us until the end of time. So your scenerio is beyond absurd, unless it actually was the end of the world. If the end was upon us, who the pope was should be the least of our worries.
 
Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!
We don’t. We give them their due respect because of their office and because they are the dispensers of the Sacraments.
This had always been the sin of my dad; he’s more or less a theist fallen away Catholic-never had any ideas about changing religions thank God, but he never trusted priests or saw what made them special.
What makes priests special is their priesthood. Their special priestly powers attained at their ordination. Of course they are human and prone to the same errors all humans are prone to.
For the longest time I shared that, why praise old men who can be just as big of sinners as their laity? I’ll be honest on this point, anytime I read about more child abuse cases that go on it just makes me hate the trust Catholics put in priests…
Or the trust people put into their pastors or rabbis. It’s a extraordinary form of betrayal.

[6] But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. [7] Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. – Matthew 18
And beyond that, in an End of the World senario-if anything where to happen to the top part of the hierarchy where all the Cardinals and the Pope perished along with the total loss of communication between the bishops located on different continents what would determined who becomes the new legitimate Pope? I could only forsee that would mean a Pope or Anti-Pope for every continent; what would determine which would be legitimate.
Why would you foresee that? The first priority, of course, would be for the priests to attend to the spiritual needs of their parishioners. The Bishops would govern their own diocese. They wouldn’t set themselves to be a “local” Pope.
 
Sin among the clergy is nothing new and there will be sinners inside and outside of the clergy until the end of time. The clergy abuse scandal is terrible and I make no excuses for it. I will say, however, that the number of priests involved is a very small minority. There is plenty of information available on this issue that puts everything into the proper perspective. Here is some info to help you out with this:

Get the book “Priests & Pedophilia” by Dr. Phillip Jenkins a (non-catholic) sociologist.

Here are some statistics : There is a 1.7% rate for sexual immorality of any kind among catholic priests. The rate for sexual immorality among among protestant ministers is 10%.

Until the mid-1980’s the subject of child abuse was not even part of the required training for mental health professionals in the U.S., and the national qualifying exams did not have a single question dealing with the topic. To this day a test to detect future child molesters does not exist, and there is no cure for the disorder. There are serious problems to be sure, but the press has had a huge field day with the scandal. I can give even more data, but suggest doing your own research and reading Jenkins book.

We place trust in the hierarchy because it is biblical and proper. Scripture tells us the following:

Titus 1:7-11
For a bishop, as God’s steward…… must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it. For there are many insubordinate men, empty talkers and deceivers….they have no right to teach.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

2 Cor 13:10
I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority…

Titus 2:15
Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

3 John 1:9
I have written something to the church; but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority.

Acts 14:23
And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting, they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed.

Acts 15:2
And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

1 Cor 12:28-30
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

1 Tim 3:1-5
THE SAYING is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task.
Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s church?

This is but a smattering of the available verses that indicate that there are various positions of authority within the Church by way of scripture. Do you need more?

I hope this helps.
 
Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!

This had always been the sin of my dad; he’s more or less a theist fallen away Catholic-never had any ideas about changing religions thank God, but he never trusted priests or saw what made them special.

For the longest time I shared that, why praise old men who can be just as big of sinners as their laity? I’ll be honest on this point, anytime I read about more child abuse cases that go on it just makes me hate the trust Catholics put in priests…

And beyond that, in an End of the World senario-if anything where to happen to the top part of the hierarchy where all the Cardinals and the Pope perished along with the total loss of communication between the bishops located on different continents what would determined who becomes the new legitimate Pope? I could only forsee that would mean a Pope or Anti-Pope for every continent; what would determine which would be legitimate.
Catholics believe the Holy Spirit lives in and directs the Church.Clergy go through years of training before they are ordained.They take certain vows(as do married couples)which are to be strictly obeyed.Evenso to live out those vows can be very difficult at times.Why do we trust them?why do you trust your dentist if he’s been convicted of speeding?Priests still sin but that doesn’t make him any less a priest.We trust our clergy fundamentally because we trust our Church.Rules which are subject to change are passed down through a concession of Bishop’s whom the Pope is the head.When you have a concession taken by a college of cardinals who have been tested for their faith and adherence to the laws of the Church for decades and have been proven to be upstanding individuals and proclaimed tobe of sound moral value by the Pope you can trust it is passed for the good of the Church and in accordance with God’s will.
 
Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!

This had always been the sin of my dad; he’s more or less a theist fallen away Catholic-never had any ideas about changing religions thank God, but he never trusted priests or saw what made them special.

For the longest time I shared that, why praise old men who can be just as big of sinners as their laity? I’ll be honest on this point, anytime I read about more child abuse cases that go on it just makes me hate the trust Catholics put in priests…

…
Catholics don’t put their trust in men; they put their trust in God/Jesus.
We trust that He will be faithful to His promise regarding His Church. He told the apostles that He would “build My Church” on Peter to whom He gave the keys of the kingdom. And that what was bound on earth is what is bound in heaven. And He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. (Mt. 16:18-19) Satan is “the father of lies”. Were His Church to declare a lie to be truth, it would mean that Satan/hell had prevailed.

There have been some immoral popes and bishops in the Church’s 2000 year history, but Jesus has been faithful to guard His Church from proclaiming error.
We know that Jesus is all-powerful; capable of intervening to prevent any Pope or Council from declaring as infallible truth something that is false. Therefore Catholics trust that the truths proclaimed by the Church’s Magisterium are in fact true.

Infallibility is a great gift Jesus gave to His Church. He knew all the false teachings that would arise over the centuries. Jesus, who is Truth, gave to the members of His Church a way of knowing for sure the doctrines which they can trust to be true.
 
Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!

This had always been the sin of my dad; he’s more or less a theist fallen away Catholic-never had any ideas about changing religions thank God, but he never trusted priests or saw what made them special.

For the longest time I shared that, why praise old men who can be just as big of sinners as their laity? I’ll be honest on this point, anytime I read about more child abuse cases that go on it just makes me hate the trust Catholics put in priests…

And beyond that, in an End of the World senario-if anything where to happen to the top part of the hierarchy where all the Cardinals and the Pope perished along with the total loss of communication between the bishops located on different continents what would determined who becomes the new legitimate Pope? I could only forsee that would mean a Pope or Anti-Pope for every continent; what would determine which would be legitimate.
The short version is that we trust that God can work through imperfect vessels. He does so repeatedly throughout history and Scripture.

That said, we also show respect for clergy because of the commitment they made. We in no way think that they don’t sin or are in any way perfect. But for the most part, trust in priests in well placed. The amount that commit these terrible acts, while too high, is extremely low.

We don’t think they’re perfect, but they are priests and unless they give us reason to think otherwise we trust that they are doing as they say they are. Which, in fact, is how we’re supposed to treat everyone.

Should an “end of the world scenario” occur, something would get worked out. There have been problems before, but they always get solved.
 
And beyond that, in an End of the World senario-if anything where to happen to the top part of the hierarchy where all the Cardinals and the Pope perished along with the total loss of communication between the bishops located on different continents what would determined who becomes the new legitimate Pope? I could only forsee that would mean a Pope or Anti-Pope for every continent; what would determine which would be legitimate.
What about the Maronites? They managed to hold out on their own for 400 years, when they were cut off from the rest of the Christian world, which largely forgot that they still existed. And the Kakure Kirishitan in Japan (though admittedly their beliefs became muddled with time). 🤷
 
St. John Chrysostom’s quote, “The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops” seems appropriate here (I just love me some “Golden-tongued”).

Trust in the men that are bishops & priests? No. Bishops & priests are just people and people are capable of both good and evil and liable to do either at any given moment. History bears this out.

Respect the office? Yes.

Trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit to keep the teachings of the Church free from error? Yes.
 
To believe that the abuse of children is only a Catholic problem is as wrong as it is ignorant. The Catholic Church is however working hard to stop these offenses. Each and every Diocese must present a Safe Environment program to it’s students and have all enrolled watch the videos and let them know that they can tell someone, whether that abuse is at the Church, at school or at home.

Here are two websites that will show you how these ‘offenses’ are not just a Catholic problem.

reformation.com

stopbaptistpredators.org

Jesus himself chose a betrayer as one of His apostles…
 
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Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!
We place our trust in Christ, who established the hierarchy, put them in authority over us, and is fully capable of protecting it and guiding it through the Holy Spirit.
And beyond that, in an End of the World senario-if anything where to happen to the top part of the hierarchy where all the Cardinals and the Pope perished along with the total loss of communication between the bishops located on different continents what would determined who becomes the new legitimate Pope? I could only forsee that would mean a Pope or Anti-Pope for every continent; what would determine which would be legitimate.
There have certainly been times in the past during which the See was vacant for some time. Been there, done that. The Bishops carry on until such time as they can elect a new pope.
 
Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!
Because Jesus taught us to do so.

THE IMPACT OF SIN ON CHURCH AUTHORITY

If a Church leader is guilty of gross immorality, does his sin invalidate his position or authority?

Many, if not most, Protestants would say that it does, and they often use this line of reasoning to justify their denial of the authority of the Catholic Church. They cite historical events such as the Crusades, the Inquisition or reign of the Borgia Popes as evidence that the Church has lost its claim to moral and spiritual authority.

Such a response, however, is unbiblical. For example, Scripture states that Jesus knew “from the beginning” who would betray him – namely Judas, whom Jesus calls a “devil” (cf. John 6:64–71). This fact is significant, since Judas was selected as an apostle even though Jesus knew that he was corrupt.

Another example would be found in Jesus’ teaching on “Moses’ seat” found in the opening verses of Matthew 23: “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’” (Matthew 23:1-3)

“Moses’ seat” is a phrase that referred to a position of legitimate teaching authority held by the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. Later, Jesus condemned these men as “hypocrites,” “blind guides,” “blind fools,” “serpents,” and a “brood of vipers.” But in the passage above, Jesus specifically instructed the crowds and his disciples to obey these leaders – despite their corruption – because of the authority of their position. That is sobering stuff.

If it were true that immorality invalidated a religious leader’s authority, then why did Jesus command his followers to “obey and do everything” the scribes and Pharisees tell them? Jesus merely admonished his followers not to follow their hypocritical example. There is not even the slightest hint that their positions had been forfeited or abrogated because of their hypocrisy or immorality. If anything, the reverse is true because Jesus validated these leaders’ office by telling people to obey them. From this, we see that sin and corruption found in the individual office holders has no impact whatsoever on the authority of the office itself.

In the Parable of the Weeds found in Matthew 13, Jesus tells His disciples to anticipate corruption within the Church. He said:

Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. "The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ (Matthew 13:24-30)

Notice it is not the world at large that is being described but rather the “kingdom of heaven” or Church that is portrayed as the field containing both wheat and weeds. Jesus does not indicate that weeds (sinners) should be uprooted from the field (Church) until the separation done at the time of the final harvest.

The Church is not a paradise for saints who are already perfected but a hospital for the spiritually sick who are being healed.

Jesus clearly taught that sins of individual Church leaders do not invalidate the authority of the positions those leaders hold. These sins, whether real or imagined, do not undermine the legitimate authority of the Catholic Church and do not provide an excuse for those who refuse to acknowledge and obey her. The authority given by God to the Church and the office of the Papacy is the same today as it was in the days of Peter, Linus, Anacletus and Clement because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
 
For the longest time I shared that, why praise old men who can be just as big of sinners as their laity? I’ll be honest on this point, anytime I read about more child abuse cases that go on it just makes me hate the trust Catholics put in priests…
What about the same trust that Protestants put into abusive pastors?

Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year
By Rose French
June 18, 2007
insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.

The figures released to The Associated Press offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down — the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.

Religious groups and victims’ supporters have been keenly interested in the figure ever since the Roman Catholic sex abuse crisis hit five years ago. The church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950. [That’s about 200 per year - fewer than the number of known Protestant cases. - Randy]

Protestant numbers have been harder to come by and are sketchier because the denominations are less centralized than the Catholic church; indeed, many congregations are independent, which makes reporting even more difficult.

Some of the only numbers come from three insurance companies — Church Mutual Insurance Co., GuideOne Insurance Co. and Brotherhood Mutual Insurance Co.

Together, they insure 165,495 churches and worship centers for liability against child sex abuse and other sexual misconduct, mostly Protestant congregations but a few other faiths as well. They also insure more than 5,500 religious schools, camps and other organizations.

The companies represent a large chunk of all U.S. Protestant churches. There are about 224,000 in the U.S., according to the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies, although that number excludes most historically black denominations and some other groups, which account for several thousand congregations.

Church Mutual, GuideOne and Brotherhood Mutual each provided statistics on sex abuse claims to The Associated Press, although they did not produce supporting documentation or a way to determine whether the reports were credible.

The largest company, Church Mutual, reported an average of about 100 sex abuse cases a year involving minors over the past decade. GuideOne, which has about half the clients of Church Mutual, said it has received an average of 160 reports of sex abuse against minors every year for the past two decades.

Brotherhood Mutual said it has received an average of 73 reports of child sex abuse and other sexual misconduct every year for the past 15 years. However, Brotherhood does not specify which victims are younger than 18 so it is impossible to accurately add that to the total cases.

Abuse reports do not always mean the accused was guilty, and they do not necessarily result in financial awards or settlements, the companies said. The reports include accusations against clergy, church staff and volunteers.

Even with hundreds of cases a year "that’s a very small number. That probably doesn’t even constitute half,’’ said Gary Schoener, director of the Walk-In Counseling Center in Minneapolis, a consultant on hundreds of Protestant and Catholic clergy misconduct cases. "Sex abuse in any domain, including the church, is reported seldom. We know a small amount actually come forward.’’

Tom Farr, general counsel and senior vice president of claims for GuideOne, based in West Des Moines, Iowa, said most abuse cases are resolved privately in court-ordered mediation. Awards can range from millions of dollars down to paying for counseling for victims, he said.

One of the largest settlements to date in Protestant churches involved the case of former Lutheran minister Gerald Patrick Thomas Jr. in Texas, where a jury several years ago awarded the minister’s victims nearly $37 million (euro28 million). Separate earlier settlements involving Thomas cost an additional $32 million.

When insurance companies first started getting reports of abuse from churches nearly two decades ago, the cases usually involved abuse that happened many years earlier. But over the past several years, the alleged abuse is more recent, which could reflect a greater awareness about reporting abuse, insurance companies said.

Insurance officials said the number of sex abuse cases has remained steady over the past two decades, but they also said churches are working harder to prevent child sex abuse by conducting background checks, installing windows in nurseries and play areas and requiring at least two adults in a room with a child.
 
A victims’ advocacy group has said the Southern Baptists, the nation’s largest Protestant denomination, could do more to prevent abuse by creating a list of accused clergy the public and churches could access.

"These are things people are entitled to know,’’ said Christa Brown, a member of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, who says she was sexually abused as a child by a Southern Baptist minister. "The only way to prevent this crime is to break the code of silence and to have absolute transparency when allegations are raised.’’

At the Southern Baptist Convention’s annual meeting in San Antonio this week, the Rev. Wade Burleson proposed a feasibility study into developing a national database of Southern Baptist ministers who have been "credibly accused of, personally confessed to, or legally been convicted of sexual harassment or abuse.’’

A convention committee referred Burleson’s motion to the SBC executive committee, which will report back with findings and a recommendation at next year’s meeting in Indianapolis.

Southern Baptist President Frank Page said leaders are considering several options to help churches protect children against abuse.

"We believe that the Scripture teaches that the church should be an autonomous, independent organization,’’ Page said. "We encourage churches to hold accountable at the local level those who may have misused the trust of precious children and youth.’’

Several years ago, the Baptist General Convention of Texas, which represents moderates who have increasingly distanced themselves from the conservative-led Southern Baptists, started a list of accused clergy for churches, but not the public. Under pressure from victim advocates, the Texas group just released the names of some convicted sex offenders who may have been ministers in local congregations.

Joe Trull, editor of Christian Ethics Today and retired ethics professor at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, helped the Texas convention create its registry and says there are now about 11 cases involving clergy abuse with minors.

But he believes these are just the "tip of the iceberg’’ because churches don’t have to report abuse cases to the registry and aren’t likely to.

"The problem we’re having is that churches just weren’t sending the names,’’ Trull said. "In the normal scenario, they just try to keep it secret. We’re going to have to be more proactive and let them know if they don’t come forward, they’re helping to perpetuate this problem.’’
 
Not only are all the leaders in the Church sinners—

all the people sitting in the pews are as well…

That must be why we need a savior…
 
Such a response, however, is unbiblical. For example, Scripture states that Jesus knew “from the beginning” who would betray him – namely Judas, whom Jesus calls a “devil” (cf. John 6:64–71). This fact is significant, since Judas was selected as an apostle even though Jesus knew that he was corrupt.
This is my immediate sentiment. Shall we mistrust Jesus who picked sinners for his apostles? Shall we mistrust Matthew because he was a tax collector? Peter because he was a hypocrite? Paul because he was accomplice to murderer and a pillager? (Act 8:1-5)
 
Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!

This had always been the sin of my dad; he’s more or less a theist fallen away Catholic-never had any ideas about changing religions thank God, but he never trusted priests or saw what made them special.

For the longest time I shared that, why praise old men who can be just as big of sinners as their laity? I’ll be honest on this point, anytime I read about more child abuse cases that go on it just makes me hate the trust Catholics put in priests…

And beyond that, in an End of the World senario-if anything where to happen to the top part of the hierarchy where all the Cardinals and the Pope perished along with the total loss of communication between the bishops located on different continents what would determined who becomes the new legitimate Pope? I could only forsee that would mean a Pope or Anti-Pope for every continent; what would determine which would be legitimate.
If you ever require brain surgery (I pray u dont ever) you will put your trust in that MD and his or her special knowledge even though he or she is just as much a sinner as you and me. You also will be impliciltly trusting the medical instutuion he/she graduated from and the authority its instructors possess in teaching even though they are all capable of making mistakes. Can you imagine not trusting all physicians because of the ones that have been guilty of malpractice?

In Christ,
JMS
 
Why do Catholics put their full trust in a clergy that is as vunerable to sin as anyone else?!
As others have said here, Catholics trust in the validity of the office of the priest, instituted by Christ in the Sacrament of Holy Orders; Catholics do not necessarily need to trust the priest himself. Catholics also believe in the apostolic succession because Christ so instituted His Church to propagate the sacraments which manifest His truth.

The heretical Donatists thought the validity of the sacraments priests administer depended on the sanctity of the priest. This was condemned. Christ, the Supreme High Priest, works through the merely human priest analogously to how a painter works through his instruments, no matter how imperfect they may be, to produce a beautiful painting.
 
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