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Hoxbar
Guest
I’m not catholic, I’m Assembly Of God. As a pentacostal the virgin birth is important to us because Jesus was concieved without sin (sex). Is this the same way catholic’s view the virgin birth?
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mattkubes
Guest
Welcome to CAF 
Now before I answer that, I’d just like to clarify the way you phrased the question - what do you mean by “Jesus was concieved without sin (sex)”?
Now before I answer that, I’d just like to clarify the way you phrased the question - what do you mean by “Jesus was concieved without sin (sex)”?
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Hoxbar
Guest
This is just what we say, it’s the “churchy” answer I guess. I don’t see sin in sex within marriage. I’ve been taught that if Jesus had been conceived by sex that he would have been conceived by sin. Mainly I guess it’s because after the fall of man/woman in the Garden of Eden death would occur and cause humans the need to procreate. So sex is a product of sin. (that’s sounds really stupid, now that I think of it:blush: )
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mark_a
Guest
Catholics believe Jesus was conceived without sin by the power of the Holy Spirit.
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Hoxbar
Guest
But why is the virgin birth important?
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LilyM
Guest
Firstly because Jesus was required to be born of a virgin (without sex) in order to fulfil Isaiah’s prophecy - ‘behold, a virgin shall conceive …’ etc etc.
Secondly because Jesus was Son of God. There must therefore be no possible question of an earthly father contributing to His conception and birth, therefore no sex.
Secondly because Jesus was Son of God. There must therefore be no possible question of an earthly father contributing to His conception and birth, therefore no sex.
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mattkubes
Guest
That’s the way I’ve always understood it as well. It fulfills yet another piece of prophecy and points to a supernatural source.
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puzzleannie
Guest
the Catholic view does not equate sex within marriage with sin.
Catholic doctrine is that Jesus, Son of God, Second Person of the Holy Trinity, was conceived in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary and took on human flesh and human nature through the power of the Holy Spirit, that Mary is ever virgin, before during and after her pregnancy and the birth of Our Lord, that she remained virgin throughout her life, never having relations with her husband Joseph.
Catholic doctrine further teaches, as a natural and logical doctrine flowing fom the Incarnation, that Mary herself was conceived without sin. That her parents had relations in the normal way but from the moment of her conception in her mother’s womb, Mary was free from original sin which we all inherit from our first parents, Adam and Eve due to their sin of pride against God. She is therefore the first fruits of Jesus’ saving action.
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Hoxbar
Guest
Is there any scripture to back up this teaching? How could she be without sin, since she is not divine? But how could she give birth to Christ if she did sin? I can see both sides of this doctrine. Please explain more…
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TJTM3
Guest
Response: Read the response from Puzzleannie. It is 100% on target. Jesus came into the world: 1) by the power of the Holy Spirit (read Luke’s 1 26:38 account of the Annunciation and meditate on it…it is beautiful and filled with the mystery of God’s love for man and His great desire to, in the fullness of time, fulfill His promise…God the Creator becomes man…the Incarnation) and 2) by the “yes” of Mary. Mary had to cooperate for the Incarnation to occur. (It is the same with us, we have to cooperate…say yes to God…for our salvation. In other words, we must imitate Mary.) Jesus is God and He could have come into the world anyway He desired, but to fulfill prophecy (Isaiah) He came into the world through a virgin…“and the virgin’s name was Mary”. Jesus, who is without sin, could not have come into the world through a vessel that was stained with sin. Hence, from Mary’s conception, as a part of God’s Divine plan for the salvation of mankind, Mary by a singular act of grace from God was freed from Original sin and born Immaculate (pure and holy). This why the Catholic Church has from its foundation honored her under the title of the “Immaculate Conception”. She is and always will be the “Mother of God”…pure and Holy. Jesus Himself said that all prophecy has to be fulfilled…the virgin birth is one. Let’s us all pray to Our Blessed Mother, Mary, when we need anything. Let us imitate Jesus, and go to His Mother when we need something: “O Mary Conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to Thee.”
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
Adam and Eve were created without sin. They did not have to sin but had free will. Mary also had free will; she could have sinned but did not.
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mm1991
Guest
Sex isn’t sin within marriage…
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TJTM3
Guest
Response: All of this information is taken from the writings of Fr. John Hardon in his book, “The Catholic Catechism”:
On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX issued a document “Ineffabilis Deus’ proclaiming to the universal Church the Marian dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The proclamation reads as follows: “To the honor of the holy and undivided Trinity, to the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, to the exaltation of the Catholic faith, and the increase of the Catholic religion, We by the authority of Jesus Christ, Our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul and by Our Own, declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the omnipotent god, in consideration of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind was preserved free from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore is to be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful.”
This proclamation to the universal Church is forever and is a required belief of all Catholics. It affirms: 1) that Mary’s freedom from original sin was by a special grace of God, 2) that this freedom from sin occurred by the merits of Jesus Christ, 3) that Mary was exempt from sin while mankind was not, and 4) the exemption took place at her conception in the womb of her mother (St. Anne).
All of the forgoing is based on two things: 1) scripture; and 2) the teachings of early Church Fathers (the Catholic Church) over time. In studying whether to define this dogma, Pope Pius IX sought the (name removed by moderator)ut of all the Catholic Bishops of the Universal Church. The Pope in his theological research to define this dogma does not cite scripture “explicitly”, but shows that the most common texts used by early Church Fathers sees this as an “implicit teaching” about Mary…that she was conceived without sin. Fr. Hardin cites that Pope Pius IX begins with Gensis 3:15 “I will make you enemies of each other: you and the woman, your offspring and her offspring. It will crush your head and you will stike its heel”. Early Church Fathers (i.e., Ireneus, Epiphanius, Cyprian, and Pope Leo the Great) understood the “seed” to be the Savior (Jesus Christ), and hence the Mother of Christ came to be identified as “the woman”. Hence the proclamation approves this interpretation and draws from it the conclusion that Mary because of her intimate relationship to Christ, “with Him and through Him had eternal enmity towards the evil spirit, triumphed over him completely, and crushed him with her immaculate foot.”
In addition, citing the traditions of the Catholic Church from its foundation on the Apostles, Pope Pius IX cites all of the pertinent titles given to Our Lady by early Church Fathers, who called Mary “not only immaculate, but entirely immaculate; not only innocent, but most innocent; not only spotless, but most spotless; they called her holy and completely removed from every stain of sin; all pure and all but the very archtype of purity and innocence…who alone and in her entirety has become the dwelling place of all graces of the Holy Spirit. God alone excepted, she is superior to all.” These many titles are expressed from the early days of the Church in prayers, liturgies of the Mass, rites, feasts and invocations. The professions of faith by the early Church in Mary’s freedom from sin from the beginning of her existence has always been celebrated by the Church.
In my opinion, reflecting on it ourselves, it only makes sense that God Himself could not have confined himself in the womb of the Virgin Mary for 9 months, if she had any stain of sin in her. How could the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) have filled her with all graces and come to dwell within her if she was not pure and holy. For this to have occurred it only makes sense that Mary from her conception was prepared by God for this singular privilege…to be the Mother of Jesus Christ. Hence, all that she is is a gift from God to her “by the merits of Jesus Christ” .
Now if the Trinity from the beginning of time prepared the plan of salvation based on Mary being immaculate and allowing her to have the freedom to choose whether or not to accept this role (mother of the savior); how precious do you think she is to God Himself, because she who was without sin, said…yes….”I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done unto me according to your word.” This is why the Church from its foundation has held up Mary to the prime disciple to imitate. Jesus spent 30 years before His public life in her presence, under her guidance, love and care. If God Himself will place Himself under Mary’s care, why shouldn’t we?
You may want to research this further through the Catholic Catechism, but it is a TRUTH that can not be denied. In fact, in 1858 in Lourdes, France the Blessed Mother appeared many times to a young child Bernadette Soubirous and during the last apparition, Our Lady identified herself as, “I am the Immaculate Conception.” This was 4 years after the dogma was proclaimed. You could interpret this as God’s saying through His Mother that the dogma is true. Praise be Jesus, through Mary!
This has been a little long and I hope it is helpful.
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PJM
Guest
My dear frind in Christ, welcome
In the Catholic Tradition sex, confined to a Husband and his wife, is not sinful, and indeed is a directive from God Himself.
Genesis Chapter 1: "26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” **27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; **and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”
The Virgin Birth was accomplised by the unlimited Will and Power of God.
God is Perfect and therefore, Jesus who too is God, is Perfect. So God caused and permitted the Virgin birth of His only Son, to keep Mary, who is the “Mother of God” both “Ever-Virgin” and “Ever sinless.”
Luke Chapter 1:
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, * the Lord is with you!” *** 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” 35* And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born * will be called holy, the Son of God. **”
Why" Because God is Perfect, God could not be born through one who was imperfect!
Again, we speak here of the Power and Holy Will of God Himself.
Merry Christmas! Joy to the World, Christ is here!
PJM m.c.
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abucs
Guest
Personally i don’t see why Jesus could not be born to someone with original sin, i wouldn’t think it would affect him at all.
Although it seems in Christian history when God interacts with man in a big way it is often to someone who is very ‘close to God’ in a sinless way - St Paul i guess at the time was one of those exceptions to my very general statement.
Although it seems in Christian history when God interacts with man in a big way it is often to someone who is very ‘close to God’ in a sinless way - St Paul i guess at the time was one of those exceptions to my very general statement.
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Sgt_Sweaters
Guest
Maybe this won’t satisfy you, but one of the most compelling arguments for me has been fittingness.
In the Old Testament the Ark of the Covenant was costly and immaculate and holy and untouched. Indeed, those who touched or looked into it were struck dead on the spot. It had to be absolutely pure.
The old Ark carried the Law, the Staff, the Bread from Heaven. Mary, the new Ark, carried those as well. He was the the law of God and its fulfillment, the High Priest represented by the staff, the Word made flesh, food for us. The objects carried in the old Ark were symbols, signs, foreshadowings of Christ.
Why would the new Ark of the Covenant, the vessel to carry God Made Man, the Messiah, the savior of the world, at least as pure and immaculate and splendid as the vessel that carried the signs of what was to come?
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abucs
Guest
Fair enough Sergeant.
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Volodymyr_988
Guest
Now drop and give him 20!:bowdown: (kinda looks like pushups)
Sgt.
That was a good explanation.
Sgt.
That was a good explanation.
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PJM
Guest
What is the base for such a belief? “I think” isn’t good enough:blush:
You are dispuiting a DOGMA of the Roman Catholic Church based exactly on what specific knowledge?
Think about it!
God is and has to be Perfect.
We cannot get into Heaven with any sin, or unpaid consequences of sin! Why? Because God who is Perfect cannot and willnot tolerate anyone who too is not perfect!
God who is and has to be perfect, COULD NOT, as it would void His Perfect Nature, which is NOT a possibility! Cannot be!, allow or in this case “Ordain” that His Very Son, who too IS GOD, be born from one who too is not PERFECT! Simply put it is God’s Will, and God cannot be wrong! Not possible.
My dear friend are you implying that St. Paul was sinless? There is no, zip, zerro, none Theological or biblical evidence to support this errounous position. If I’m wrong, please lead me to the evidence of such a statement. God bless you:thumbsup:
Thanks for your post,
PJM m.c.
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abucs
Guest
PJM,
in the first instance i am simply saying that i can’t personally see a problem with it happening if God chose it a certain way. That is not making any statement on how it actually was.
In the second instance my comment said exactly the opposite - that Paul was one of the exceptions to the rule that God often interacts with people who are ‘close to him’, defining ‘close to him’ as being someone who is Holy.
Although saying ‘in a sinless way’ is literally not correct, i was meaning to say someone who ‘has less sin’ or ‘more grace’ if you like - closer to God.
Paul at the time of his call was the exception to this.
This second comment was in support of what sergeant was later to articulate very well - That God seems to be present in very good people.
I was basically saying i don’t have a problem with the possibility of God being incarnated (through birth) to someone with original sin - if God had chosen to do it that way, at the same time as sympathising with the Catholic/Orthodox dogma that builds on the view of God interacting with good people in defining Mary to be without original sin.
That is simply my thoughts, whether right or wrong. I am not making a statement of how things were, but the possibility of how they could have alternately been - if God has chosen it that way.
To disagree - one would have to argue that it is impossible for God to incarnate (through birth) to a woman who has original sin. I don’t think the Church teaches that it is impossible, but like Sergeant’s comment - that it is fitting that there is no original sin in the mother - and that is the way it was in the case of Mary with Jesus.
in the first instance i am simply saying that i can’t personally see a problem with it happening if God chose it a certain way. That is not making any statement on how it actually was.
In the second instance my comment said exactly the opposite - that Paul was one of the exceptions to the rule that God often interacts with people who are ‘close to him’, defining ‘close to him’ as being someone who is Holy.
Although saying ‘in a sinless way’ is literally not correct, i was meaning to say someone who ‘has less sin’ or ‘more grace’ if you like - closer to God.
Paul at the time of his call was the exception to this.
This second comment was in support of what sergeant was later to articulate very well - That God seems to be present in very good people.
I was basically saying i don’t have a problem with the possibility of God being incarnated (through birth) to someone with original sin - if God had chosen to do it that way, at the same time as sympathising with the Catholic/Orthodox dogma that builds on the view of God interacting with good people in defining Mary to be without original sin.
That is simply my thoughts, whether right or wrong. I am not making a statement of how things were, but the possibility of how they could have alternately been - if God has chosen it that way.
To disagree - one would have to argue that it is impossible for God to incarnate (through birth) to a woman who has original sin. I don’t think the Church teaches that it is impossible, but like Sergeant’s comment - that it is fitting that there is no original sin in the mother - and that is the way it was in the case of Mary with Jesus.
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