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Nyota
Guest
I read that Mary was supposed to be sinless so that Jesus wouldn’t inherit man’s sinful nature, so God protected her. But why not simply protect Jesus from sin like Mary?
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ricmat
Guest
I’m not an expert on this, but here’s my 2 cents.
First, yes, God could have simply protected Jesus. But…
Think back to the Ark of the Covenant. Scripture tells us that it contained the Law/Word (10 commandments), the manna (bread from heaven), and the staff of the high priest Aaron. The Ark was built of the finest “materials” gold, incorruptible wood, etc. because the things that it was to hold were very holy. And once it was built, one dare not touch it unless you were a priest, and very holy yourself.
The new testament equivalent of the Ark is Mary. Jesus of course is the new Law, the New Bread from Heaven, and the New High Priest. And Jesus was in her womb for 9 months. If the earthly symbols of these things (Law, Bread, Priest) demanded the most perfect materials available to man, then wouldn’t God make the new Ark out of the best possible materials as well? How could Mary be less than perfect if she was to hold Jesus inside her?
BTW - the reason we know that Mary was ever virgin is…who would dare touch the new Ark of the Covenant?
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Nyota
Guest
I agree that Mary had to be devout in order to be chosen. The Bible is filled with devout people, but it never said that any of them were sinless. Even the David who had the great title of being a man after God’s own heart sinned. Moses and Noah (who walked with God) both had intimate, personal relationships with him, but they were not perfect. Do you believe that the priest in the Old Testament were void of sin as well since they were in God’s presence?
God was given the finest earthly materials, but of course they are not worthy enough for Him because they are from our corrupt earth. Don’t think God understands that? He’s merciful and meets us where we are.This is why I don’t understand why Mary must be lifted to God like status in order for salvation to occur.
God was given the finest earthly materials, but of course they are not worthy enough for Him because they are from our corrupt earth. Don’t think God understands that? He’s merciful and meets us where we are.This is why I don’t understand why Mary must be lifted to God like status in order for salvation to occur.
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kimmielittle
Guest
Hiyas
I can tell you simply…
Wouldn’t you want your bowl clean …before you put your cereal in it?
I can tell you simply…
Wouldn’t you want your bowl clean …before you put your cereal in it?
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ricmat
Guest
There may be many devout people, but only one human who carried Jesus in her womb, and gave Jesus her DNA for his body.
Of course the OT priests were not void of sin.
Mary is not lifted to God like status. Mary is a creature, as we all are. Eve was created without sin, but sinned. Mary was created without sin, and didn’t sin. Could we expect anything less from Jesus’ mother?
Being sinless does not make one God.
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GrahamAPhone
Guest
Mary is in NO WAY lifted to God like status. she was conceived (you could say) baptized. Because before Christ died, original sin had not yet been defeated, so sanctifying grace could not reside in the soul.
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Nyota
Guest
That’s why God chose a righteous woman, but He wouldn’t expect her to have qualities that only He hadHiyas
I can tell you simply…
Wouldn’t you want your bowl clean …before you put your cereal in it?
The idea that she was sinless seems to be an assumption because it contradicts the verses of Paul. What support do you have that she was sinless?
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Erica_Rae
Guest
Hi Nyota-
I sense that you are seeking real answers to genuine questions that you have, and that you are not looking to “pick a fight” with anyone on this board. I will do my best to respond to you in a similar fashion–with respect and thoughtful answers. I will respond to the second question you posed in the above post.
I believe that you are referring to Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Before I converted, I myself used this verse as a proof text against my Catholic friends who insisted on Mary’s sinless nature. However, I now realize that it cannot be done.
First of all, if you are going to take that verse word-for-word, wouldn’t Paul being saying that Jesus himself sinned? For, he does not say, “All, except for Jesus, have sinned…”. I anticipate that your response would be something like: “Of course Paul didn’t mention Jesus… He didn’t have to mention Jesus. He would have assumed that people knew Jesus was sinless.” In that case, couldn’t he have assumed that people knew Mary was sinless?
Alternately, Paul doesn’t mention anything about children. If a child dies the day after she is born, she lead an entire life without sinning (original sin aside). But, Paul does not mention this either.
I hope this helps answer your questions, or at least allows you to view your questions about Our Mother from a new perspective.
If you are really serious about understanding Catholic belief about Mary, I would encourage you to look at all the Marian doctrine together, as a package. That would be: The Immaculate Conception, her perpetual virginity, her sinless life, the Assumption, and the Coronation. They make a lot more sense when you understand them in light of each other.
And, as a final note, I want to emphasize the fact that Catholics “treat Mary special” because God treated her special. Any belief or high esteem we hold in Mary is only for the glory of God. She points us to Him and only desires to bring us closer to her Son.
Best of luck on your journey in search of Truth! Prayers for you.
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MACHIU
Guest
Mary DOES NOT have to be sinless, but she is because of God’s grace.
God could come into the world as a human with a clasp of thunder and voila… an adult Jesus. It is God’s choice, and He decided to came in the world the old fashion way. Through the womb of a woman. To say that she is righteous is an understatement.
All the usual Mariology defense has been put forward like the New Ark of the Convenant, the New Eve, etc.
It is true that there is no one verse that p(name removed by moderator)oints Mary’s sinlessness. However, our Popes and Fathers of the Church who no doubt have gone through the Bible countless of times, contemplate, meditate and received divine revelation put together a unanimous conclusion that if understood as a whole, the Bible implicitly teach these Marian DOGMAs.
I think until you submit to the authority of the Catholic Church (Popes, Magisterium, Sacred Tradition and YES the Deuterocanonical Bible) no matter amount of explaining will be enough for you. Not a verse, a paragraph nor the whole commentaries on the Bible will convince you. Faith is a gift and our faith is a Catholic one. To understand and accept teachings is to submit to the Catholic faith.
God Bless
PS: Of course we have explanation on the Marian Dogmas. We are not just being fed theology on a silver plater by the Popes. Catholic teachings may seem strict and narrow. However, we are encourage to explore and understand the theology behind the teachings in the hope that we can better understand Christ and be a better imitator of Christ.
Read CA Library tracts on Mary.
God could come into the world as a human with a clasp of thunder and voila… an adult Jesus. It is God’s choice, and He decided to came in the world the old fashion way. Through the womb of a woman. To say that she is righteous is an understatement.
All the usual Mariology defense has been put forward like the New Ark of the Convenant, the New Eve, etc.
It is true that there is no one verse that p(name removed by moderator)oints Mary’s sinlessness. However, our Popes and Fathers of the Church who no doubt have gone through the Bible countless of times, contemplate, meditate and received divine revelation put together a unanimous conclusion that if understood as a whole, the Bible implicitly teach these Marian DOGMAs.
I think until you submit to the authority of the Catholic Church (Popes, Magisterium, Sacred Tradition and YES the Deuterocanonical Bible) no matter amount of explaining will be enough for you. Not a verse, a paragraph nor the whole commentaries on the Bible will convince you. Faith is a gift and our faith is a Catholic one. To understand and accept teachings is to submit to the Catholic faith.
God Bless
PS: Of course we have explanation on the Marian Dogmas. We are not just being fed theology on a silver plater by the Popes. Catholic teachings may seem strict and narrow. However, we are encourage to explore and understand the theology behind the teachings in the hope that we can better understand Christ and be a better imitator of Christ.
Read CA Library tracts on Mary.
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Orchanian
Guest
I don’t think God chose a righteous woman, but that he made her a righteous woman. She wasn’t righteous by her own effort. God created her sinless and protected her from the evil one. She is the ark of the new covenant, as another poster already commented. She was set aside by God from her conception, to be a holy and perfect ark for the Lord. She is also a hope for us, someone who listened and obeyed perfectly. She points us to her son, Jesus, which is why we honor her.
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ccolley2
Guest
Why didn’t God just save us by a wave of his hand? Why go to all the trouble to send his Son to die for us?Why? Why doesn’t God act like we think he ought??? Because God’s ways are not our ways! God can do anything He wants to! If God wanted to, he could have made ANYONE sinless! God is not limited by what is in our puny human minds!
Mary’s sinlessness does NOT raise her to “God-like status”. It simply makes her one of the righteous people of the OT. BTW, the Bible DOES say that the righteous(they keep God’s commandments) are not sinful! Moses WAS righteous before God. God made a covenant with him…that’s just a tad more than “having a personal relationship” with God!
But, let me ask you this… Can God and evil exist in the same place? Didn’t God kick satan out of heaven? Goodness and evil cannot occupy the same place at the same time. If Mary were sinful, then she couldn’t have borne God.
The Early church Fathers consistently taught that Mary was Immaculately conceived.
St. Ephraim(AD 350) composed this beautiful poem:
*“You alone, and your Mother are more beautiful than any others; for there is no blemish in you, nor any stain upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these.” *(Faith of the Early Fathers; Jurgens, Wm. A; liturgical Press, 1979).
St. Ambrose of Milan(AD 387-388)
"…lift me up not from Sarah, but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain of sin."(Faith of the Early Fathers; Jurgens, Wm. A; liturgical Press, 1979).
CC
Papist since 1992!
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Actually, Nyota, Adam and Eve were created without sin, you know. But (like all of us) they could–at any point–choose to sin.
Once they had, the rest of us were ‘touched’ by the effects of that sin. Much as a person say with a genetic disorder would pass the disease down to his/her children. The children aren’t personally guilty of anything, but they do suffer the disease because their parent had it.
Now, suppose that a vaccine comes out that will stop the disorder. Even at birth, the child gets vaccinated and the disease is gone. . .but in those 9 months of gestation, the child’s system is slightly weakened. He’ll be vaccinated so he’ll no longer get the genetic disease his father did, but even with the vaccine, he’ll still be prone to developing other diseases because his immune system is slightly weakened.
Now, suppose that at the very moment of conception, a child COULD be vaccinated. No disease from the father. And, because the 9 months of conception were disease-free–no being more prone to developing other diseases.
Now here’s the thing. Even though the child is not more PRONE to develop disease, the child could still wind up sick. Suppose, for example, the child deliberately went out and exposed himself to something intensely? The child would (normally) have not developed a disease but through the child’s own deliberate action, they could still get a disease.
THAT’s what happened with Eve. She went out and ‘forced’ disease upon her --something which had she remained obedient to God would not have touched her.
And Mary could have–at any point–done exactly the same thing.
Being born ‘sinless’ didn’t mean that she would remain sinless; that she was somehow a robot or a god who could never sin under her own power.
She was, like Eve, sinless at the start–but unlike Eve, she chose to remain sinless to the finish.
Once they had, the rest of us were ‘touched’ by the effects of that sin. Much as a person say with a genetic disorder would pass the disease down to his/her children. The children aren’t personally guilty of anything, but they do suffer the disease because their parent had it.
Now, suppose that a vaccine comes out that will stop the disorder. Even at birth, the child gets vaccinated and the disease is gone. . .but in those 9 months of gestation, the child’s system is slightly weakened. He’ll be vaccinated so he’ll no longer get the genetic disease his father did, but even with the vaccine, he’ll still be prone to developing other diseases because his immune system is slightly weakened.
Now, suppose that at the very moment of conception, a child COULD be vaccinated. No disease from the father. And, because the 9 months of conception were disease-free–no being more prone to developing other diseases.
Now here’s the thing. Even though the child is not more PRONE to develop disease, the child could still wind up sick. Suppose, for example, the child deliberately went out and exposed himself to something intensely? The child would (normally) have not developed a disease but through the child’s own deliberate action, they could still get a disease.
THAT’s what happened with Eve. She went out and ‘forced’ disease upon her --something which had she remained obedient to God would not have touched her.
And Mary could have–at any point–done exactly the same thing.
Being born ‘sinless’ didn’t mean that she would remain sinless; that she was somehow a robot or a god who could never sin under her own power.
She was, like Eve, sinless at the start–but unlike Eve, she chose to remain sinless to the finish.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
My thought is based on a pattern.
Eve was espoused to Adam from the moment of her conception, and created sinless.
The Church was espoused to Christ from the moment of her conceptin, and created sinless.
And I believe Mary - through her child bearing relationship - is espoused to the Holy Spirit. And like Eve and The Church, Mary was espoused to the Holy Spirit from the moment of her conception, and consequently had to be sinless to be espoused to the Holy Spirit.
I don’t know if the Catholic Church would support my thinking. :twocents:
(I know Protestants will say I portray Mary as a bigamist because Joseph married her, but I tend to not let my carnal thinking interfere with my meditation on the spiritual.)
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Betterave
Guest
Where did you read this? It’s simply wrong from a Catholic point of view.
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cradlecatholic
Guest
Here’s a question that Dr. Corapi likes to pose regarding this issue…
If you had the opportunity to create your own mother, wouldn’t you want to make her perfect?
Jesus, being God, was able to do just that. He preserved her from sin from the moment of her conception.
If you had the opportunity to create your own mother, wouldn’t you want to make her perfect?
Jesus, being God, was able to do just that. He preserved her from sin from the moment of her conception.
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Betterave
Guest
A natural reply to this question might be: If you had the opportunity to create your own brothers and sisters and sons and daughters, wouldn’t you want to make them perfect?
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Biggie
Guest
I always return to the understanding that Moses had to take his sandals off to stand in the vicinity of the burning bush where God visited him. He was unworthy to see God’s face and could only look upon God’s back as he passed by. Isaiah could only speak to God after an angel burned his lips with a red hot coal to purify them. Elijah had to wait on the mountain for the promise that God was merely passing by. God’s name, if spoken, brought death. The Ark of the Covenant, God’s footstool, was kept in the most sanctified of settings and could only be seen once a year by the High Priest.
Is not Mary’s immaculate conception and perpetual virginity more a recognition of God’s ineffable holiness than of Mary’s? I am fairly certain she would see it that way.
Is not Mary’s immaculate conception and perpetual virginity more a recognition of God’s ineffable holiness than of Mary’s? I am fairly certain she would see it that way.
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ccolley2
Guest
I always return to the understanding that Moses had to take his sandals off to stand in the vicinity of the burning bush where God visited him. He was unworthy to see God’s face and could only look upon God’s back as he passed by. Isaiah could only speak to God after an angel burned his lips with a red hot coal to purify them. Elijah had to wait on the mountain for the promise that God was merely passing by. God’s name, if spoken, brought death. The Ark of the Covenant, God’s footstool, was kept in the most sanctified of settings and could only be seen once a year by the High Priest.
**Is not Mary’s immaculate conception and perpetual virginity more a recognition of God’s ineffable holiness than of Mary’s? **
My answer:
I would say it is more an example of God’s awesome power and incredible love for us to create a being capable of the honor of Theotokos (God bearer). If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father! Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant.
**Biggie wrote: **
I am fairly certain she would see it that way.
**MY response: **
*I would agree that she would have “seen it that way” because of her incredible humility and her filial obedience to God. She’s a great role model for us all! *
CC
[SIGN]Papist since 1992~[/SIGN]
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YADA
Guest
Actually your question provides a false starting point …and one that is not taught by the Church …
Mary was not sinless out of ‘necessity’ … God can do anything he desires … All Powerful, All Knowing … that is God’s job description … Jesus did not have to die on a cross to save mankind … God coud have ‘redeemed’ the world in any number of ways … I hope you can understand that point …
The Church teaches that it was ‘fitting’ that Mary was sinless … it was ‘fitting’ that she was preserved from original sin … So you can see that as the Mother of God, the Sinless Jesus Who would give His life on the Cross to Redeem a sinful world would be preserved from sin in that she was the source of the human nature of Christ. God provided her the grace to choose service and love of God over sin, to humble herself before God, submitting to His will rather then her own …
God does not ‘need’ to any but His Own Will …
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