Why was it necessary for our salvation for Jesus to be horribly crucified?

[fhansen]

What is God telling us?

God’s meaning to tell us what God is willing to endure to give us an inkling of what He doesn’t have to prove, just “how wide and long and high and deep” is His love (Eph 3:18). It’s an unfathomably huge love, but He wants us to know that love and to ultimately choose and embrace and imitate it ourselves.

 

[Mintaka]

Pilate was a bad hat, no doubt. But we do see in Christ’s life that it was often the baddies who found him most attractive. The one who needed forgiveness most would love most.

And there’s no reason to think that he wouldn’t take his wife’s dream seriously, because Romans did take dreams as omens and messages.

And Barabbas was a really nasty threat to Roman rule and order, so it was far from ideal to let him go.

So yes, it’s weird that Pilate would be driven to think by Jesus. But that’s totally in character for a bad man baffled by God stepping into his praetorium.

 

[Heathenlove]

Luke 6:37
“Judge not and ye shall not judge…”
I don’t believe that Jesus Christ was crucified for MY sins. I didn’t even exist when that event occurred. I do believe that he was crucified for what HE truly believed in, but not for me. I know that some of you will respond with opinions of God knowing everything! He knew I would write these words on this forum before I was ever created and that I AM a child of God and he loves me. That being the case, then why would God even bother creating me, knowing that I would have the miserable, heartbreaking, sad, nightmare of a life? I’m not a criminal or psycho path, don’t worry, that was not what I mean when I describe my life? Its more like, God took my mother away when I was not only four years old. but I was also the youngest and only girl of her three children left behind. After taking my mother, he took my step mother. I was 19, but my younger half sister was 9. Not even a month ago, at the age of 31, God not only took my sister from me, he took her from her only child. Her daughter is four months old. That’s Gods love? I’ve been sexually assaulted by nine men throughout my life, (I’m 41) five of them gang raped and beat me, leaving me for dead. I was 15. They never got in trouble for their crime. I was physically beat by a husband, one of three. I suffer mental disorders and I’ve suffered with drug addictions. Is that Gods love? Please someone explain to me, what have I done so wrong to deserve Gods love?

 

[Maximus1]

So did blessed John Duns SCOTUS. One thing that makes our faith different than any other , was that the symbol of our faith was God as a “forgiving victim. " When I read that, it was something striking to think about. For God to engage in such an act of humility for our sake.God’s own choice to be in solidarity with human suffering.
These things are difficult( we, like all people,want to think of God in triumphal acts of power, and glory, and golden stuff) but at the same time show an act of love in and of itself seperate from any substitution idea. . I like to think sometimes about this as an intimate gift capable of bringing us closer to God. As a forgiving victim, could there be a stronger example of love one another as I have loved you?
It also has been a symbol of EMPATHY. The age old Catholic tradition of " gazing” at the cross in silent prayer. A practice that brings palpable benefit to so many.

 

[knightfall]

That being the case, then why would God even bother creating me, knowing that I would have the miserable, heartbreaking, sad, nightmare of a life?

Dear Heathenlove,

I could talk to you about how that’s not God’s love, about free will and our fallen nature. But I have no wise words for you. I just offer you my tears and I pray that you find the peace you need.

 

[OddBird]

I an so sorry for what you went through. I wish I had something better to offer, but I have no words. You will be in my prayers.

(ETA : oops, this was meant as an answer to @Heathenlove, sorry)

 

[poche]

God is telling us about the unspeakable evil that sin is.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I’m not so sure about the analogy of the snake on the pole likened to Jesus being crucified. Is Jesus actually compared to a serpent, who, IIRC, is the symbol of Satan according to Christian theology? If He is, in what sense, for it seems to me such a strange comparison?

 

[irishcolleen45]

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate the insightful info.

 

[Kmon23]

St. Athanasius answers this question in “On the Incarnation” Chapter 4 (ccel)

But if any honest Christian wants to know why He suffered death on the cross and not in some other way, we answer thus: in no other way was it expedient for us, indeed the Lord offered for our sakes the one death that was supremely good. He had come to bear the curse that lay on us; and how could He “become a curse” otherwise than by accepting the accursed death? And that death is the cross, for it is written “Cursed is every one that hangeth on tree.” Again, the death of the Lord is the ransom of all, and by it “the middle wall of partition” is broken down and the call of the Gentiles comes about. How could He have called us if He had not been crucified, for it is only on the cross that a man dies with arms outstretched? Here, again, we see the fitness of His death and of those outstretched arms: it was that He might draw His ancient people with the one and the Gentiles with the other, and join both together in Himself. Even so, He foretold the manner of His redeeming death, “I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Myself." Again, the air is the sphere of the devil, the enemy of our race who, having fallen from heaven, endeavors with the other evil spirits who shared in his disobedience both to keep souls from the truth and to hinder the progress of those who are trying to follow it. The apostle refers to this when he says, “According to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience.” But the Lord came to overthrow the devil and to purify the air and to make “a way” for us up to heaven, as the apostle says, “through the veil, that is to say, His flesh.” This had to be done through death, and by what other kind of death could it be done, save by a death in the air, that is, on the cross? Here, again, you see how right and natural it was that the Lord should suffer thus; for being thus “lifted up,” He cleansed the air from all the evil influences of the enemy. “I beheld Satan as lightning falling,” He says; and thus He re-opened the road to heaven, saying again, “Lift up your gates, O ye princes, and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors.” For it was not the Word Himself Who needed an opening of the gates, He being Lord of all, nor was any of His works closed to their Maker. No, it was we who needed it, we whom He Himself upbore in His own body that body which He first offered to death on behalf of all, and then made through it a path to heaven.

 

[Gab123]

I’m not so sure about the analogy of the snake on the pole likened to Jesus being crucified. Is Jesus actually compared to a serpent, who, IIRC, is the symbol of Satan according to Christian theology? If He is, in what sense, for it seems to me such a strange comparison?

Realize that It was Jesus Himself who said it in John 3:14-16. Jesus was describing Himself. Jesus said:

“Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.“
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It was God Himself who told Moses to raise the bronze serpent on the pole. Thus ask yourself—why on earth would God instruct Moses to raise an image of a serpent—the very thing that was killing them in the desert—and use it as a symbol in order for them to be healed?

The same God who began revealing Himself through Moses, leading them through the Divine pedagogy of goodness and love, was now amongst them: Jesus Christ is God Incarnate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity fulfilling the prophetic Book of Isaiah where God Himself declares that He is the only Messiah and King of Israel and to expect no one else:

“For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior . . . “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he. . . I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed**—I, and not some foreign god among you.** You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God. Yes, and from ancient days I am he. This is what the Lord says— your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: . . . I am the Lord, your Holy One, Israel’s Creator, your King.” Isaiah:43

Thus the Prophecy of Isaiah 53:

“Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. . . . Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. *He was oppressed and afflicted, . . . By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested?

For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished. . . . Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied, by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

 

[meltzerboy2]

The Jewish interpretation of Moses lifting up the snake is NOT that the snake possesses any kind of divine power to grant life to the people. It is rather the people looking upward to heaven that is the purpose of putting the snake on the pole, and by doing so, the people are seeking life from G-d instead of pursuing their customary earthly and materialistic behavior to satisfy their needs. Further, the fact that G-d instructed Moses to use a snake reveals that even an animal that was the source of much suffering to Adam and Eve by tempting them to rebel against G-d can be used by G-d for a beneficial purpose, thereby showing that G-d is ultimately in control of mankind’s happiness instead of a superstitious belief in the magical power of an animal.

 

[Wm777]

fwiw… at the link below, it says…

" Your question is one that has occupied theologians over the entire history of Christianity. I side with your position: God is God, and he could have done anything he wanted.

What is clearly the Church’s teaching (Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 615) is that “Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.” But whether that atonement had to occur in the way that it did has been a matter of theological debate.

One theory, sometimes referred to as “substitution,” “satisfaction,” or “ransom” theology, was championed by St. Anselm in the 11th century.

He believed that Christ’s sacrificial death was necessary in order to liberate humanity from sin and restore communion with the Father, that the blood of Jesus was “payment” to God for human sin. (The manner of Christ’s death reflected Old Testament sacrifices, where a lamb was burnt in offering and then later consumed by the worshippers.)

Anselm’s theology prevailed, even though it was challenged by scholars such as Peter Abelard, a contemporary of Anselm, who insisted that Christ’s death on the cross had been an act of love, not payment."

https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/03/23/was-crucifixion-necessary/

 

[Wm777]

At the Easter Proclamation (Exsultet) at mass, 2nd link below, it is always read Adam’s fault was necessary, since it “bought us a redeemer”.

Rejoice, heavenly powers! Sing, choirs of angels!
Exult, all creation around God’s throne!
Jesus Christ, our King, is risen!
Sound the trumpet of salvation!

Rejoice, O earth, in shining splendor,
radiant in the brightness of your King!
Christ has conquered! Glory fills you!
Darkness vanishes for ever!

Rejoice, O Mother Church! Exult in glory!
The risen Savior shines upon you!
Let this place resound with joy,
echoing the mighty song of all God’s people!

[My dearest friends, standing with me in this holy light,
join me in asking God for mercy,
that he may give his unworthy minister
grace to sing his Easter praises.]

[V. The Lord be with you.
R. And also with you.]

V. Lift up your hearts.
R. We lift them up to the Lord.

V. Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
R. It is right to give him thanks and praise.

It is truly right
that with full hearts and minds and voices
we should praise the unseen God, the all-powerful Father,
and his only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

For Christ has ransomed us with his blood,
and paid for us the price of Adam’s sin
to our eternal Father!

This is our passover feast,
when Christ, the true Lamb, is slain,
whose blood consecrates the homes of all believers.

This is the night when first you saved our fathers:
you freed the people of Israel from their slavery
and led them dry-shod through the sea.
This is the night when the pillar of fire
destroyed the darkness of sin!

This is the night when Christians everywhere,
washed clean of sin
and freed from all defilement,
are restored to grace and grow together in holiness.

This is the night when Jesus Christ
broke the chains of death
and rose triumphant from the grave.
What good would life have been to us,
had Christ not come as our Redeemer?

Father, how wonderful your care for us!
How boundless your merciful love!
To ransom a slave
you gave away your Son.

O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!
Most blessed of all nights, chosen by God
to see Christ rising from the dead!

Of this night scripture says:
“The night will be as clear as day:
it will become my light, my joy.”

The power of this holy night
dispels all evil, washes guilt away,
restores lost innocence, brings mourners joy;
it casts out hatred, brings us peace, and humbles earthly
pride.

Night truly blessed when heaven is wedded to earth
and man is reconciled with God!
Therefore, heavenly Father, in the joy of this night,
receive our evening sacrifice of praise,
your Church’s solemn offering.

Accept this Easter candle,
a flame divided but undimmed,
a pillar of fire that glows to the honor of God.

Let it mingle with the lights of heaven
and continue bravely burning
to dispel the darkness of this night!

May the morning Star which never sets find this flame
still burning:
Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead,
and shed his peaceful light on all mankind,
your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever.

Easter Proclamation (Exsultet) - Prayers - Catholic Online

 

[Roguish]

Jesus was supposed to take on Himself the sins of all of humanity for its salvation.

This is a Protestant argument, not a Catholic one. In itself this observation doesn’t prove it’s wrong, but it also does not hold up to scripture, e.g. the many Gospel passages where Jesus clearly states that only some (perhaps few) will be saved. Moreover, Jesus never says that believers will be saved through the historical event of the death of his earthly body. Rather He says that Salvation depends on uninterrupted and unwavering Faith in Who He Is, which will inevitably lead to the individual believer’s partaking of the Crucifixion by bearing his own Cross. So yes, the Crucifixion is essential to Christianity, but not quite in the sense that some interpret it.

 

[meltzerboy2]

What you write here raises a host of further questions. because some of what you say seems to me to be exactly what you state my response is: a Protestant argument. Case in point: the Gospel passages which, according to you, clearly state that only some will be saved. Is this belief not Protestant, even Calvinist, rather than Catholic? Further, your statement that salvation depends on faith on Who Jesus is: does not this perspective reflect sola fide Protestantism?

 

[Wm777]

This is the night when first you saved our fathers:
you freed the people of Israel from their slavery
and led them dry-shod through the sea.
This is the night when the pillar of fire
destroyed the darkness of sin!

The prayer above is adapted from the prayer said in Jewish homes by the father and son before they eat the passover meal. The son will begin by saying somethng like, “why are we eating this meal, Father?” Then the Father will recite the prayer above.

Jesus clearly said Himself he had to be “raised up”, and we are to “eat his flesh and drink his blood”. To deny it seems contrary to doctrine.

Communion (prefigured in the Exodus and Jewish Passover meal) is a sacrament, and a sacrament is an outward sign that confers grace. It’s also a mystery.

But Jesus also told us “in advance” (by prophecy)… He would “rise again”, so the apostles “would believe”…

And He “went ahead of us…” to “prepare a place for us”… That we believe to be true, too…

I think the crucifixion was probably a “winnowing” fan to see who’s serious… because in John, many so-called disciples fall away when they hear they have to eat His body and drink His blood… Anyone who’s serious has to take up their cross and follow him… That said, He pretty much knew everyone was going to be dispersed when the Shepherd was struck… maybe this was somehow part of the grain falling the the ground to die and beget new life… I dunno… but Jesus also said the apostles would be okay because He had revealed Himself to them, and by it they were “pruned”… so a winnowing or weeding out makes sense…

Redemption isnt mere lip service.

 

[Roguish]

With respect to what I just wrote, yes, you can interpret it as Calvinist-leaning, but there’s no absolute need to. The RC Church has traditionally not taught that all mankind was or is saved either by the historical event of the Crucifixion or by Jesus’ Incarnation. In fact the RCC doesn’t even teach that all of its own members are ensured of Salvation. So I think what I said in this regard is RCC-compatible as much as it is Calvinist-compatible.

As for “sola fide”, my view is that the difference between Catholics and Protestants lies in their understanding of what Faith is. Catholics pretty much are “sola fide” believers if you subscribe to the Catholic understanding of Faith. Because what Catholic denies that without Faith, all else (including great works) is futile?

 

[meltzerboy2]

I think you’re being, well, roguish here. I believe that you are correct that the RCC has not ensured all of its members are saved. However, neither has it definitively claimed who has not been saved, unless one dies outside of grace in mortal sin (but how does anyone know this?). So your argument that some or even few are saved does not seem to be in keeping with what the Church teaches.

With regard to sola fide, it seems to me that the RCC differentiates between SOLA fide and fide. The latter would also incorporate works, for faith without works is considered dead. It is true that works alone do not suffice; yet the focus on love in Catholicism (“faith, hope, and love, these three, but the greatest of these is love”) presents a rather strong argument against sola fide.

 

[Roguish]

I think you’re being, well, roguish here.

Sure I am, and it’s good that you remind me of that. I don’t represent the RCC — my own path has diverged too far from mainstream Catholicism for that — but my responses to you may have given that impression. It was unwise of me to point out that your first post in this thread sounded Protestant, because what matters is only that it’s incorrect. So, regardless of what denomination my views do or do not correspond with, my point is this: not all mankind was saved by Jesus’ Crucifixion, and those that are saved, are only so because they are are being saved, not because they have been saved. And they are being saved by partaking of the agony of the Cross in the present, through Faith in Christ’s Living Presence here and now.