Why was the forbidden tree in the garden?

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What good purpose did it serve at all? Why did God make it so? Why did he allow the serpent to exist in Eden? Why didn’t he tell Adam and Eve exactly what was going to happen in detail if they did not obey his command not to eat of it? Why did he not warn them of the lie Eve was going to be told from the serpent about it? What would have happened if Adam refused to eat of it even after Eve insisted he do so?
 
What good purpose did it serve at all? Why did God make it so? Why did he allow the serpent to exist in Eden? Why didn’t he tell Adam and Eve exactly what was going to happen in detail if they did not obey his command not to eat of it? Why did he not warn them of the lie Eve was going to be told from the serpent about it? What would have happened if Adam refused to eat of it even after Eve insisted he do so?
Here’s my thoughts…

Our purpose in this life (and the next) is to love God. True love requires that their be a choice not to love. Without the capability of that choice, we’d be robots with no ability to love. And without any temptation to not love there would be no choice not to love.

Genesis 2:15 says that God told Adam to till it (the Garden) and keep it. This means working it, protecting it, and making it bear fruit. If Adam is supposed to protect it, that means that there was something that would be a threat. No, God didn’t tell them the details of the serpent or the lie in advance.

They had one commandment - don’t eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told them that they would die if they disobeyed him. They ate, and death entered the world.

We are all confronted with new situations and temptations to disobey God that we might not have been advised of in advance. We need to call on God for help (unlike Adam).
 
The story of the man and the woman in the garden is a myth. It is an imaginative story that uses symbols to explore a realty beyond our comprehension. The reality being explored is “Why do human beings suffer?” Given the beliefs that God is all loving and all powerful, that God made humans human beings in God’s own image, and that we are very good, why do we suffer? You would think God would have created things in an order that didn’t involve suffering but suffering appears to be part fo the order of things. How can our belief that God is all loving and all powerful be made compatible with our experience of suffering?

The author who cose to explore this question does not have the option of giving a historical explanation. He doesn’t know a historical explanation. The author makes it very evident that his genre is **not **historical by his obvious use of symbols.

What in the story is an obvious symbol? Every reader should recognize the tree of a knowledge of good and evil as a symbol. Such a tree does not in fact exist in the order of reality. Notice there is no apple tree in this story. There is a tree of a knowledge of good and evil and a tree of life - another obvious symbol. If one can eat every day from the tree of life, one will not die. A third obvious symbol is the talking snake. Notice too that the snake is not referred to as the devil. The snake is a character in the plot, just as God, the man, and the woman are characters in the plot.

It is not unusual for someone to ask “How do you know that these are symbols? Maybe back at the beginning of creation there were trees like that and snakes could talk.” This question flows from a misunderstanding of the literary form of the story. The story does not date back to the beginning of time. The author is not contemporary with the dawn of creation. This is a very sophisticated story. At the dawn of civilization society did not have a highly sophisticated view of marriage as expressed in Genesis 2:24. Neither farming nor the establishment of towns was an early development in prehistoric life, yet the fourth chapter of Genesis reports that Cain, who tilled the soil, married and built a town, all while separated from the family of his birth. This story, like the story in which God creates the world in a workweek, reflects a much more highly sophisticated society than would a story about the actual first human beings on the face of the earth. However, when we understand the literary form of the story, questions that presume historicity appear irrelevant. The text will simply not support a claim of historicity.
 
The story of the man and the woman in the garden is a myth. It is an imaginative story that uses symbols to explore a realty beyond our comprehension. The reality being explored is “Why do human beings suffer?” Given the beliefs that God is all loving and all powerful, that God made humans human beings in God’s own image, and that we are very good, why do we suffer? You would think God would have created things in an order that didn’t involve suffering but suffering appears to be part fo the order of things. How can our belief that God is all loving and all powerful be made compatible with our experience of suffering?

The author who cose to explore this question does not have the option of giving a historical explanation. He doesn’t know a historical explanation. The author makes it very evident that his genre is **not **historical by his obvious use of symbols.

What in the story is an obvious symbol? Every reader should recognize the tree of a knowledge of good and evil as a symbol. Such a tree does not in fact exist in the order of reality. Notice there is no apple tree in this story. There is a tree of a knowledge of good and evil and a tree of life - another obvious symbol. If one can eat every day from the tree of life, one will not die. A third obvious symbol is the talking snake. Notice too that the snake is not referred to as the devil. The snake is a character in the plot, just as God, the man, and the woman are characters in the plot.

It is not unusual for someone to ask “How do you know that these are symbols? Maybe back at the beginning of creation there were trees like that and snakes could talk.” This question flows from a misunderstanding of the literary form of the story. The story does not date back to the beginning of time. The author is not contemporary with the dawn of creation. This is a very sophisticated story. At the dawn of civilization society did not have a highly sophisticated view of marriage as expressed in Genesis 2:24. Neither farming nor the establishment of towns was an early development in prehistoric life, yet the fourth chapter of Genesis reports that Cain, who tilled the soil, married and built a town, all while separated from the family of his birth. This story, like the story in which God creates the world in a workweek, reflects a much more highly sophisticated society than would a story about the actual first human beings on the face of the earth. However, when we understand the literary form of the story, questions that presume historicity appear irrelevant. The text will simply not support a claim of historicity.
We have been over this time and time again, citing Church documents and the Catechism, why oh why do you continue this?

patg, what you posted is heresy and you are endangering others.

PART TWO: THE LANGUAGE OF GENESIS
 
If they hadn’t of disobeyed God, would they still be alive toiling in the garden of Eden? Would they have had children at all? Would they be the only two humans in the world today?
 
If they hadn’t of disobeyed God, would they still be alive toiling in the garden of Eden? Would they have had children at all? Would they be the only two humans in the world today?
They didn’t toil before they disobeyed. They kept the garden. hard work came after the fall.

They were to be fruitful and multiply even before the fall. Without the fall we would have possessed the same integrity they had.
 
Now let’s work on the talking snake idea.

We know from Scripture that Jesus cast out demons from humans. Today, excorcists cast out demons from those afflicted. The demons are the devil who overtakes a life form.

So, is it so ridiculous and naive to think the devil could not have possessed a serpent? Hardly.
 
Now let’s work on the talking snake idea.

We know from Scripture that Jesus cast out demons from humans. Today, excorcists cast out demons from those afflicted. The demons are the devil who overtakes a life form.

So, is it so ridiculous and naive to think the devil could not have possessed a serpent? Hardly.
So, what’s up with you? You think this is merely “symbolic” as well? Or, how do you explain this part of scripture? If this didn’t happen, why is it in our bible?
 
So, what’s up with you? You think this is merely “symbolic” as well? Or, how do you explain this part of scripture? If this didn’t happen, why is it in our bible?
I was responding to patg’s claim it can’t be the way it happened. I am open to it being the way the Bible describes it. Also, there are layers of meaning in scripture. So, some of patg’s points are true also.

Catholics do not interpret the Bible in a literal fashion. We need to look at what the writer was trying to convey.

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75
110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77
The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78
112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase “heart of Christ” can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80
113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).
114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.
The senses of Scripture
115
According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two *senses *of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
  1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
  2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
  3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86
118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses: The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87 119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88

But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89
 
What good purpose did it serve at all? Why did God make it so?
It serves as the object of a choice and God made it so that we could choose with the temptation before us.
Why did he allow the serpent to exist in Eden?
As the tempter
Why didn’t he tell Adam and Eve exactly what was going to happen in detail if they did not obey his command not to eat of it?
He did. He gave them the command and told them what would happen. What else would you want Him to do?
Why did he not warn them of the lie Eve was going to be told from the serpent about it?
He warned them of the consequences. What else did you want Him to say?
What would have happened if Adam refused to eat of it even after Eve insisted he do so?
Good question. I don’t have the answer.

Peace…

MW
 
What good purpose did it serve at all? Why did God make it so?
The tree is of the knowledge of good and evil. If it physically existed, which I think it did, it is a material manifestation of a spiritual principle.

One of the key sins of Eve in the Garden was trusting her own understanding of good and evil above God’s. God had told her not to eat from the tree, so her refusal to heed his counsel was disobedience rather than faith. She trusted her intellect rather than God’s. By breeching God’s command through excessive self-reliance, she decided to determine for herself what evil and righteousness mean, rather than relying on God’s interpretations of their meaning. In that way, she did perversely gain a twisted knowledge of good and evil.

To deny Eve the possibility of eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil would be to deny her the ability to doubt God and rely on herself only. That would cut her off from free choice and void her righteous acts of meaning.
Why did he allow the serpent to exist in Eden?
If the serpent wasn’t allowed to make evil choices, it wouldn’t have free will either.
Why didn’t he tell Adam and Eve exactly what was going to happen in detail if they did not obey his command not to eat of it? Why did he not warn them of the lie Eve was going to be told from the serpent about it?
God told them enough. He told them not to eat of the tree, for otherwise they would die. He told them what would happen, so they were completely responsible and forewarned. He didn’t tell them that the serpent would tempt them to eat of the tree, but why should he have to? He had already told them how they should behave, so whether they were tempted by an outsider or by their own desires, or both, they knew what God’s will was. He had made his will in this matter clear, and if they didn’t know the refutations to all of the devil’s arguments, they should have just relied on faith.

God gave them all the information they needed to make the right choice.
What would have happened if Adam refused to eat of it even after Eve insisted he do so?
He would have remained pure in God’s sight, and Eve alone would have died. She also couldn’t have procreated without Adam, so humanity wouldn’t have been tainted by sin.

My suspicion is that God would have made another woman for Adam, and Adam would have married her and given birth to a clean and good humanity.
 
We have been over this time and time again, citing Church documents and the Catechism, why oh why do you continue this?
We have been over this time and time again, citing Church documents and the Catechism, why oh why do you continue to deny the teachings of the Church? We have moved well beyond the fundamental literalism you keep pushing into understanding based on the literary forms as recommended by the Church.
patg, what you posted is heresy and you are endangering others.
This is utter nonsense - have you had any scripture classes at all? Have you read any *recognized *scholars? You should attend the classes I help teach in my diocese - we teach the truths I have stated.
 
We have been over this time and time again, citing Church documents and the Catechism, why oh why do you continue to deny the teachings of the Church? We have moved well beyond the fundamental literalism you keep pushing into understanding based on the literary forms as recommended by the Church.

This is utter nonsense - have you had any scripture classes at all? Have you read any *recognized *scholars? You should attend the classes I help teach in my diocese - we teach the truths I have stated.
Scholars and theologians muse. They do not have teaching authority in the Church.

I quote the Magisterium.
 
We have been over this time and time again, citing Church documents and the Catechism, why oh why do you continue to deny the teachings of the Church? We have moved well beyond the fundamental literalism you keep pushing into understanding based on the literary forms as recommended by the Church.
A fact that I find very disappointing :(. It’s name-calling to label it fundamentalist. The Early Church Fathers were strong proponents of the perspective that the Bible is exactly accurate in all things. St. Jerome, Justin the Martyr, Augustine and many others declared this openly. Several popes in the 19th century described it precisely, and Vatican I espoused inerrancy without the Vatican II possible qualification. The suggestion that inerrancy is limited to faith and morals in the Bible is not found anywhere in Church tradition prior to Vatican II, and even in Vatican II it is not explicitly stated. This perspective deviates from the tradition of the Early Church Fathers, the whole of Catholic tradition up to the 20th century, and the words of Jesus himself, who declared that it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one letter to drop out of the law, and claimed that no “jot nor tittle” can fail. Not in the smallest way is it inaccurate- as Iranaeus put it, the scripture is “perfect,” and he boldly claimed that if he perceived any error in it, he would see that the supposed error was due only to an imperfection of his own understanding, rather than to an imperfection in what was written. The Early Church Fathers referred to the Bible as “God’s book,” and referred to the Holy Spirit as its author.

Fundamentalists drew their perceptions on scriptural inerrancy from the leaders of the Reformation, and those early leaders (Calvin, Luther and others) drew their view from Catholic theology that had always existed.

It is very inappropriate to name-call this perspective “fundamentalist,” for this was the Catholic position all the way up to the mid-20th century. The view that the Bible is only perfect in faith and morals is not a deeper exposition of what the Early Church Fathers meant- it is a clear deviation from what they believed. And it’s a deviation from the whole history of Church perspectives. An unjustified deviation as well, I might add, for repeatedly scholars have attacked the historicity of Biblical passages only to find their accusations defeated. The existence of the Hittite civilization, for instance, was not proven by archaeologists and used to be a focus for scientific sneering at the Bible. Christians were under pressure to change their beliefs, because the Hittites weren’t shown to exist. Now reams of information are available about the Hittites, and those accusations have failed.

Many accusations once were made about Israelite history, challenging its reliability, but now a great deal of that history has been backed by subsequent study, especially when the Old Testament documents are compared to Assyrian records. There are precise parallels. It’s only in the time periods before David that there are substantial difficulties still in corroborating the historical documents.

I have a great deal of trouble stomaching the way many Catholics are leaning away from the bold faith in Biblical inerrancy held by the Early Church and held firmly throughout all Catholic history up to the 20th century. I respect their choice, some, because I can see how Vatican II could be seen as opening the doors for this perspective. And even though it was only a pastoral council, its words still very rightfully make a big difference in the way Catholics think. I’m very disappointed that they weren’t more clear in backing the traditional Catholic view.
 
We can probably all agree that the author(s) of the accounts of creation and the fall are meaning to convey something of importance about the nature of man and his relationship to God. I happen to believe that there is much in the stories yet to be understood and we should keep trying. Here’s my feeble attempt.

I think that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents our freedom to act against the will of God. The command against eating of it tells us that while God may have given us a truly radical freedom-the freedom to disobey Him or to do wrong-He never gave us the right to do wrong. In fact, any act of disobedience against God is, simply, wrong or evil, in and of itself.

I speculate that somehow man gains something “extra” in the end-the sure knowledge that the right choice is to love and follow God with his whole heart, mind, and soul and that, if not for the fall, man would not have had that knowledge or gained the kind of integrity which God wills for us but which can come only by our free submission to the hands of the Potter. There are a few bible verses and Church teachings that suggest that we might end up higher than the angels even though we started out a little lower and this could be due to the fact that man must undergo more trials than them. The Tree of Life which Adam & Eve were banned from could be said to be God Himself. We must learn the lesson that we need to feed from Him continuously in order to live. Jesus, the Lord and God of all, won back the right for us to feed from the Tree of Life- Himself-and live forever. In any case, education is apparently an essential element in mans’ becoming the beings God has in mind to know and love Him for eternity.

In Adam & Eves’ innocence, it would not soon have occurred to them to question God or His word, just as for a relatively innocent person today the notion of incest would probably be completely foreign until an outside source introduced the idea and then the immediate reaction should be repulsion, due to, I believe, a law against incest written in the human heart. The voice of the serpent represents this external foreign voice, in competition with Gods’ voice. It vies for our attention continuously, attempting to wind its way into our minds and convince and coerce us to deny the laws written in our hearts and to twist the truth into a lie wherever it can. This rebellious mentality exists all throughout this world and is no longer so subtle a voice but rather one that screams all day long. Why was the serpent, which was identified as satan in Revelation, allowed in the Garden of Eden? Maybe because it was better to have the question of Gods trustworthiness and authority posed sooner rather than later-to get the inevitable over with and get Gods plan for mankind in motion. No creature can appreciate the Creator for His true value because that creature will always be inferior to, and therefore lacking in his understanding of, the One who created him. Only the Creator has the power to make His love and grandeur knowable to His creation, through a gift which we now know to be grace. But this grace can be rejected by rejecting the authority of its Giver-by questioning and challenging Gods right to the title of God.

Adam and Eve and their posterity-us-had to experience the fall for themselves-to come to know and experience good along with evil- in order to have the opportunity to be convinced of the righteousness and awesomeness of God and the trustworthiness of His word. God, of course, was uncreated but apparently it takes time to create little deities, capable of loving as they should and recognizing and embracing the source of all love. Just some thoughts-probably wrong. Sorry if I rambled a bit or was repetitious.
 
Scholars and theologians muse. They do not have teaching authority in the Church.

I quote the Magisterium.
You very selectively quote the magesterium, and usually it is the magesterium’s statements from pre-scientific eras. You also post many references to articles of unkown pedigree.

The “heresies” you claim I present are *all *from scholars the Church has recognized and promoted as the real authorities in this area. All of their works are based on magesterial documents and directions and most of them have at least the approval of a member of the magesterium in the form of imprimatur or nihil obstat.

What is often ignored in this debate is that the Church does not require belief in either of our particular interpretations. Just as with creationism vs evolution, there is no dogmatic teaching on this subject. While we may not agree, calling either view a heresy is definitely outside of Church teaching.
 
You very selectively quote the magesterium, and usually it is the magesterium’s statements from pre-scientific eras. You also post many references to articles of unkown pedigree.

The “heresies” you claim I present are *all *from scholars the Church has recognized and promoted as the real authorities in this area. All of their works are based on magesterial documents and directions and most of them have at least the approval of a member of the magesterium in the form of imprimatur or nihil obstat.

What is often ignored in this debate is that the Church does not require belief in either of our particular interpretations. Just as with creationism vs evolution, there is no dogmatic teaching on this subject. While we may not agree, calling either view a heresy is definitely outside of Church teaching.
Calling Adam and Eve a myth is a heresy - that is what I am calling you on. It is clear and consistent Catholic teaching that all mankind descended from this original pair. The Catechism affirms this.

As for other layered meanings it is agreed that there is much depth.

The point you make about the pre-scientific era presupposes that the account of Adam and Eve cannot be reconciled with science. One point to remember, science cannot address the supernatural. Those that are bound to the limits of science make a fatal error.
 
Calling Adam and Eve a myth is a heresy - that is what I am calling you on. It is clear and consistent Catholic teaching that all mankind descended from this original pair. The Catechism affirms this.
You are assuming way too much and misinterpreting what I said.

I never denied in any way that all mankind descended from this original pair.

I said that this particular story of the couple in the garden is a symbolic myth which explores that question of why there is suffering in the world. This is the interpretaion which has been taught in every Catholic adult ed class I have been associated with for over 20 years.

You also seem to imply that labeling something a “myth” is the same as calling it false. The term myth only refers to the literary form of the story; it does not specify anything about the truth or false nature of the writing.

The story of the couple and the magic tree and talking snake has nothing to do with the teaching about who is descended from who. Labeling my interpretation as heresy is an untenable position.
 
You are assuming way too much and misinterpreting what I said.

I never denied in any way that all mankind descended from this original pair.

I said that this particular story of the couple in the garden is a symbolic myth which explores that question of why there is suffering in the world. This is the interpretaion which has been taught in every Catholic adult ed class I have been associated with for over 20 years.

You also seem to imply that labeling something a “myth” is the same as calling it false. The term myth only refers to the literary form of the story; it does not specify anything about the truth or false nature of the writing.

The story of the couple and the magic tree and talking snake has nothing to do with the teaching about who is descended from who. Labeling my interpretation as heresy is an untenable position.
I am well aware what myth means.

I am glad you clarified that it does not mean false.

The fact that this has been taught for the last 20 years does not trump the constant teaching of the Church for the last 2,000.

Were you careful in your teaching to clarify myth, for today’s society renders this as “made up”? You yourself used the word imaginative. If I was in your class here is what I would come away with - Adam and Eve are a myth that was believed before we knew better (pre-scientific) to tell us certain things. Even in your retort you diss the passage by the sarcastic use of “talking snake” and “magic tree”.

This pretty much let’s people believe it’s just a fable. The end result is not a building of faith but a weakening.

The question I put to you is: Why teach in that manner?
 
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