Why was the Immaculate Conception necessary?

[SPOKENWORD]

Théodred:

Once again you demonstrate that you don’t know your Scriptures very well.

The Greek word used here for “all” is pas, and it can be shown from Scripture that it does not mean each and and every single person without exception.

Matt 3:5-6 At that time Jerusalem, all pas] Judea, and the whole region around the Jordan were going out to him and were being baptized by him int he Jordan River…

Each and every single person, without exception, from Judea were going out to him to be baptized? What about the Pharisees and Scribes that the bible tells us that did not go out and be baptized by John? Are you saying that Matthew’s Gospel is telling a lie?

Rom 15:14 I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all pas] knowledge…

So the Roman Christians were filled with each and every single bit of knowledge? Why, then, did Saint Paul bother to write them? Wouldn’t they already have known everything?

1 Cor 15:22 For just as in Adam all pas] die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life.

Is Saint Paul really saying that each and every single person has died in Adam? Apparently you would have Saint Paul contradict Gen 5:24: Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him. And apparently you would have Saint Paul also contradict Heb 11:5: By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death… Apparently you would also have Saint Paul contradict 2 Kings 2:11 where Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind and did not experience death. Are you suggesting that Saint Paul was ignorant of Enoch and Elijah?

And obviously you would have to hold based on this passage that everyone will be saved. No?

Each and every single person without exception has sinned? So Jesus Christ sinned?

Spoken, really, your so-called biblical arguments against Catholic doctrine are juvenile.

Hi Ted ,Sorry you feel that way.Its amazing such a small word and people have a problem understanding it? Every case you showed me I disagree with you,You went so far as to include Jesus in the All, to try to prove your point, pretty sad. God Bless

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Ted ,Sorry you feel that way.Its amazing such a small word and people have a problem understanding it? Every case you showed me I disagree with you,You went so far as to include Jesus in the All, to try to prove your point, pretty sad. God Bless

Wee, spoken you can explain to Our Lord why and on what grounds you call His Mother a sinner,I for one will not go there.God Bless and come home

 

[Theodred]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Ted ,Sorry you feel that way.Its amazing such a small word and people have a problem understanding it? Every case you showed me I disagree with you,You went so far as to include Jesus in the All, to try to prove your point, pretty sad. God Bless

I’m not in a you-know-what match with you, Spoken. Do you disagree because of some feeling you have, or do you have rational and expressible reasons why you disagree? If so, please post them, if not… then you don’t… pretty sad.

Are you saying that Jesus wasn’t a human person, or he’s just a human person when it’s convenient for your arguments?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Lisa4Catholics:

Wee, spoken you can explain to Our Lord why and on what grounds you call His Mother a sinner,I for one will not go there.God Bless and come home

Hi Lisa, We are all sinners but by the grace of God we are constantly being washed in the BLOOD that makes as white as snow. Mary was Full of Grace and without sin when God choose her to be His Vessel. Its just like a baby. A baby doesnt sin or commited sin but the child inheritted original sin. Mary was born with original sin because she was not devine[a god]. Are there times when we are free of sin?[state of grace] Im sure the answer is yes. Then what makes you think its different for any one else. Im not calling Mary a sinner,Im saying she was born with original sin. As Humans we are no different. I wish Adam and Eve said no to the snake, we would have lived forever. God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Théodred:

I’m not in a you-know-what match with you, Spoken. Do you disagree because of some feeling you have, or do you have rational and expressible reasons why you disagree? If so, please post them, if not… then you don’t… pretty sad.

Are you saying that Jesus wasn’t a human person, or he’s just a human person when it’s convenient for your arguments?

Hi Ted , My feelings are that we really dont know all the answers and people put themselves in Gods position thinking they do know the answers. Thats all.Jesus did have 2 natures. He was man and was also God. Jesus was a Human person [flesh] while He walked on this earth to show Himself to us. But He also has a glorified body and He can choose to show Himself that way also if He chooses. God Bless

 

[Theodred]

SPOKENWORD:

Mary was born with original sin because she was not devine[a god].

Adam and Eve were born without original sin. Are you saying that they were divine?

SPOKENWORD:

Are there times when we are free of sin?[state of grace] Im sure the answer is yes. Then what makes you think its different for any one else. Im not calling Mary a sinner,Im saying she was born with original sin. As Humans we are no different.

Do you know what original sin is? If so, please provide your definition.

SPOKENWORD:

He was man and was also God. Jesus was a Human person [flesh] while He walked on this earth to show Himself to us.

Well, because of the way you are interpreting pas (all) in Rom 3:23, then Jesus, according to Saint Paul, sinned… because you are interpreting “all” here to mean each and every single person without exception. Remember, this is you saying that Jesus must have sinned based on the logical conclusion of your meaning for pas.

You haven’t answered my question or given reply to my request. If disagree with every single example of pas that gave above, then please explain your reasons.

I have no idea how you could disagree, anyway. This is a point of language, not interpretation. Pas simply does not mean each and every single person without exception, which means that Rom 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the Immaculate Conception.

 

[TNT]

SPOKENWORD:

Scripture says that All have sinned and Mary is part of All.

GREAT start! Now if we can just get you to quit excluding every infant ever born, we’re on our way to the True Faith!
The True Church makes ONE exception and you have a hissy. You make 10 billion and we are supposed to crumble in submission?

Don’t stop now!

 

[Theodred]

TNT:

GREAT start! Now if we can just get you to quit excluding every infant ever born, we’re on our way to the True Faith!
Don’t stop now!

LOL… hey no cross thread references… you’ll confusticate me :whacky: .

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Théodred:

Adam and Eve were born without original sin. Are you saying that they were divine?

Do you know what original sin is? If so, please provide your definition.

Well, because of the way you are interpreting pas (all) in Rom 3:23, then Jesus, according to Saint Paul, sinned… because you are interpreting “all” here to mean each and every single person without exception. Remember, this is you saying that Jesus must have sinned based on the logical conclusion of your meaning for pas.

You haven’t answered my question or given reply to my request. If disagree with every single example of pas that gave above, then please explain your reasons.

I have no idea how you could disagree, anyway. This is a point of language, not interpretation. Pas simply does not mean each and every single person without exception, which means that Rom 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the Immaculate Conception.

Hi Ted, Adam and Eve were not born but created by God from dust. Everyone after them were born thus original sin was passed on to ALL of us.Original sin was caused by the disobeidience of Gods command by Adam and Eve First Sin.But thank God Jesus Came to correct that problem.Jesus is not part of All because He came for save ALL because He is God and All is us. Jesus is IAM not ALL. God Bless

 

[TNT]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Ted , My feelings are that we really dont know all the answers and people put themselves in Gods position thinking they do know the answers.

That does not mean we have NO answers. We have answers where the Pillar of Truth passes them to us, ie His Spotless Bride, the Church. Where those answers are given we profess them

Titus 1:13 This testimony is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Jude 1:3 I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Thats all.Jesus did (actually, DOES) have 2 natures.

WOW! People fought over that for centuries. How did you get (nearly) the right answer so quickly?
It wouldn’t have been a Council of the Catholic Church…nahh.
It says 2 natures in the scriptures? …well, nahh.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

TNT:

That does not mean we have NO answers. We have answers where the Pillar of Truth passes them to us, ie His Spotless Bride, the Church. Where those answers are given we profess them

WOW! People fought over that for centuries. How did you get (nearly) the right answer so quickly?
It wouldn’t have been a Council of the Catholic Church…nahh.
It says 2 natures in the scriptures? …well, nahh.

We must be alot more educated then back then. God Bless

 

[TNT]

Théodred:

LOL… hey no cross thread references… you’ll confusticate me :whacky: .

Mea culpa. But since we were all there together, I FORGIVE MYSELF.
After all, protestants do it all the time, declare themselves forgiven with no further objective proof.
OOPS! cris-crossing again.

 

[TNT]

SPOKENWORD:

We must be alot more educated then back then. God Bless

Of “coarse”, compare us to Athanasius, no comparison, really. Just subjectively proves the evolution theory, at least on man’s intelligence.

 

[MaggieOH]

SPOKENWORD:

If Mary was born without original sin why did she die? We know Jesus died for us as a sacrafice but what about Mary? Mary was born from the womb of her mother Ann and thus inherited original sin like all of us. Scripture says that All have sinned and Mary is part of All.

Mary was born of the flesh, therefore she had to “die”. That is why the West and the East celebrate her dormition - the falling asleep of Mary. However, the Scripture does not expressly state that she died, and that is why there are some who say that Mary was taken to Heaven in the same way that Elijah was taken to heaven, when her time had come to pass from this earth.

I agree that Mary would have inherited original sin because she was born of the flesh from the womb of her mother, however, this is an explanation that falls short of God’s Omnipotence and Glory. It is God who chose the one who was to be the “Woman” in Genesis. It is God bestows His favour upon those that He chooses from the womb. Mary was conceived in the normal way, but her soul was purified by God before she entered into the world, thus Mary earns the title “Full of Grace” or “Highly favoured one”.

It is God alone who has preserved the purity of Mary so that she, as the Woman in Genesis did not know sin, otherwise she would not meet the criteria of there being enmity between the Woman and Satan.

MaggieOH

 

[Theodred]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Ted, Adam and Eve were not born but created by God from dust. Everyone after them were born thus original sin was passed on to ALL of us.Original sin was caused by the disobeidience of Gods command by Adam and Eve First Sin.But thank God Jesus Came to correct that problem.Jesus is not part of All because He came for save ALL because He is God and All is us. Jesus is IAM not ALL. God Bless

Born Created… mea culpa…

But whatever! Adam and Eve were CREATED without original sin, the same as Mary. They were not divine, so your objection is meaningless.

You have not provided a definition of original sin.

You have not presented reasons as to why you disagree with the meaning of the Greek word pas.

Are you incapable?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Lisa, We are all sinners but by the grace of God we are constantly being washed in the BLOOD that makes as white as snow. Mary was Full of Grace and without sin when God choose her to be His Vessel. Its just like a baby. A baby doesnt sin or commited sin but the child inheritted original sin. Mary was born with original sin because she was not devine[a god]. Are there times when we are free of sin?[state of grace] Im sure the answer is yes. Then what makes you think its different for any one else. Im not calling Mary a sinner,Im saying she was born with original sin. As Humans we are no different. I wish Adam and Eve said no to the snake, we would have lived forever. God Bless

Spoken you just answered your own confusion.Do you think Adam and Eve were divine before origional sin?God Bless

 

[TNT]

Originally Posted by SPOKENWORD

If Mary was born without original sin why did she die? We know Jesus died for us as a sacrifice but what about Mary? Mary was born from the womb of her mother Ann and thus inherited original sin like all of us. Scripture says that All have sinned and Mary is part of All.

In the Imitation of Her Son who, as you said died, but not because of Original sin. There are clear statements of those who did not die in the OT. Did they have O-Sin???
.“All have sinned …” So get those infants baptized! And remove the stains of Original Sin, make then Christians, hiers to the kingdom!!

Did not all the OT justified or saved occur as a result of the FUTURE or anticipated redemption thru the Passion of Christ?
No different than Mary, with one exception (time). He did it at her conception in anticipation of her Savior’s Redemption, and to prepare a worthy place for God Himself incarnate. After all, Jesus was born of the flesh of Mary, He had no Original sin “in the Flesh”. So, somewhere that link with Original sin was broken by your own admission.
You love Mary especially and you know it. Otherwise you wouldn’t be spending all this time giving her your undivided attention!
In a talk I gave, the mention of “overdoing” the honor to Mother Mary came up. It just popped into my head when I said: “Who among us can give more Honor and Glory to the Spouse (Mary) of the Holy Spirit, being Third Person of the Blessed Trinity; who among us can give more Honor and Glory to the Mother Mary of Jesus Christ, being the Second person of the Blessed Trinity; who among us has spent more time honoring Mary than Jesus did! Do you know of anyone who is doing this?”…dead silence.

Any Honor we give Mary, no matter how extravagant it may seem, is so feeble compared to that which the 2nd and 3rd Persons of the Trinity give Her, period

*.

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

If Mary was born without original sin why did she die? We know Jesus died for us as a sacrafice but what about Mary? Mary was born from the womb of her mother Ann and thus inherited original sin like all of us. Scripture says that All have sinned and Mary is part of All.

SPOKENWORD,
Mary’s death is not the issue and there is some discussion among the early church fathers as to if Mary died or if Jesus took her before she died as He did some of the prophets. There is an early church era account of that very thing…that Jesus came and took Mary at the hour of her death. The Eastern church brothers are probably the best guys to talk to about that.

Please read this tract on the homepage here…then gimme a holler and I’ll crank up the sweet tea and we’ll talk about this.
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp

 

[Axion]

The Immaculate Conception was necessary because Jesus BECAME MAN in Mary’s womb. In other words He took his human nature and his human body from Mary. These were eternally united with His Divine Nature to become the ONE PERSON of Jesus Christ, both fully God and fully man…

If Mary had had a Human Nature that was stained by Sin, then that stained nature would have been passed to Jesus.

Could Jesus have a human nature stained with sin? **No ** - for that would make Jesus a **sinner ** in need of redemption! Since this is in no way possible, Mary’s human nature had to be absolutely pure before it was passed on to Jesus.

The most perfect way of this occurring is the Immaculate Conception.

…

Some people have objected that should not Mary’s parents also have been concieved immaculately?

Again, the answer is no. Mary is human. She **can ** be redeemed, and she was redeemed at her conception. She did not need to have sinless parents. Jesus, being God and the Redeemer, cannot be redeemed. Jesus as God requires sinlessness in His human as well as divine parent.

 

[LouisvilleCards]

TNT:

Is that your Truth Serim?

What is it that you Like? Exactly?

That was in referenced to my profile:
Interests:beer drinking and theology
Religion:Lutheran attending Baptist church, but likes Catholicism

Not intended to be taken too seriously, obviously… theology and beer drinking is one sure way start a bloody fight I have been reading about Catholicsm for a few years now, but I can’t really say I’m Catholic, if I do make that decision, until after RCIA and Confirmation. Technically, I’m still in communion with the Lutheran church, although ultimately I don’t worry about denominations a lot since God uses all his servants in some way or another.

I need to catch up on this thread… thought I was subscribed to it and I would get e-mails when people replied, so I haven’t been back in a few days. I’ll try to find the original source for the apologetic argument I posted about Mary. I’ve got a ton of sites bookmarked though, but I kinda expected to find out that it wasn’t all that strong of an argument.