Why was the Mass changed after Vatican II?

[OraLabora]

How the heck is the NO more devout? Have you ever been to the TLM? The NO is a quasi-Protestant hippy fest centred on man…

No, I have not been to a TLM. But I have been to extremely reverent OF Masses in Latin, or with Latin propers and ordinary and French plainchant.

Have YOU ever been to a well done OF Mass?

Doesn’t sound like it. What you said is a slap in the face to the Benedictines of the Solesmes congregation, among others, who take great pains to create a reverent OF liturgy that draws deeply on tradition and Tradition, including Gregorian chant.

Don’t blame the form of the Mass for the abuses of some clergy.

A lot of the liturgical denominations relaxed their liturgy and added or took away things from it.

This is indeed true. The Book of Common Prayer, for Anglicans, for instance, has a deep connection to its Catholic roots, and a High Church Anglican service is very reminiscent of a Tridentine Mass except for the language. In addition the High Church Anglicans have a very rich hymnology.

Compare that to the Book of Alternative Services of 1985, and you’ll see that the Anglicans are embroiled in the same sort of controversy over their services as Catholics. In some parishes both services are performed and the two groups of parishioners barely acknowledge the other. At my wife’s “low-church” BAS service, presided by a distinctly evangelical pastor, every time I attend the liturgy is less and less recognizable as such. Even my evangelical Anglican wife sometimes says he goes too far (but she likes him otherwise).

Concerning the issue of scripture.

While the preconciliar Mass had only one Epistle and one Gospel reading (plus the reading of John 1 as the Last Gospel) it also had a great deal of scripture present in the Introit, Gradual/Tract, offertory, and communion prayers. In addition, much of the mass itself contained parts of scripture that were severely trimmed and/or poorly translated in the OF liturgy (the prayers at the foot of the altar and the offertory prayers for example). This should improve somewhat with the new translations that we will be using starting in November.

In fairness, where I attend Mass, the Latin Propers and Ordinary are used (Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory and Communion hymn as well as various tracts and sequences at different feasts/seasons). All from the Graduale Romanum and all of course scripturally-based. And it is an Ordinary Form Mass. Therefore this is a moot point as the Propers still apply to the OF Mass, albeit rearranged somewhat due to changes in the calendar and lectionary (many of the Propers are aligned to the readings).

 

[ProVobis]

Buy that’s an Anglo-Catholic parish. Anything high church is going to be similar, no?

But this one seems to follow the 1970 “and also with you” and the “Gloria” text. I haven’t seen the rest of the “Mass.”

 

[ProVobis]

Elena_26, I am interested in what Cardinal Arinze says about the mass and changes, do you remember more specifics.

I don’t know exactly what you’re looking for but there is this bit about translations from the Cardinal:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20061111_gateway-conference_en.html

 

[Love_Divine]

According to research done by Michael Voris, to make it more protestant friendly, to remove things that might offend protestants.

I watched both videos, and it was an eye-opener.

 

[OraLabora]

An astute point. Actually, several protestant denominations revised their “liturgies” in the late 70’s using the revised Roman Missal of Pope Paul VI as their source, hence the “similarities.”

Including the Anglican Book of Alternative Services.

 

[ProVobis]

In effect, that was what happened. The new mass is very like a traditional Lutheran service. Now.liturgically, Luther was not as iconoclastic as the evangelicals or even Cranmer, the Anglican. So if most Protestants were Lutherans, that would mke some sense. But most evangeicals have an order of service that looks nothing like a mass. Rather more like Zwingli’s service.

Luther pretty much redid the Canon, kept most everything else, and actually kept a rite in Latin. But his (and his followers’) languages were pretty much those in the Germanic family, English, German, Scandinavian, and Finnish. It wasn’t a major rewrite to conform the OF translations in those languages.

 

[rben20]

According to a Priest of my diocese, the Church was seen as “stuffy” to clergy at the time and they needed to “open up the windows” to allow clean air. Unfortunately, not all of it was clean.

 

[TrueLight]

According to a Priest of my diocese, the Church was seen as “stuffy” to clergy at the time and they needed to “open up the windows” to allow clean air. Unfortunately, not all of it was clean.

The “smoke of Satan”?

 

[rben20]

The “smoke of Satan”?

I am not sure what Pope Paul VI meant by this but it is very possible he saw the mess that was already starting to come to light in wake of Vatican II.

 

[ProVobis]

Speaking of Paul VI,

A well-know account from Fr. Z - Many years ago, as a seminarian in Rome, I was told a story by one of the papal masters of ceremony for Paul VI. This story has gotten around the web a bit, but I am the original teller in English. I included it in The Wanderer and in the original Catholic Online Forum years ago, but it is worthy offering again. The Novus Ordo – with so many changes to the liturgical calendar – went into effect with Advent in 1969. When Pentecost of 1970 rolled around, Paul VI was surprised to find green vestments laid out for his morning Mass instead of the traditional red for the Octave of Pentecost. When he asked about the unthinkable green vestments, he was told that it was now Ordinary Time. The Pope responded “This is the Octave of Pentecost.” The reply came back that the Octave of Pentecost was abolished in the new calendar. “Who did that?”, asked the Pope. "You did, Your Holiness. And Paul VI wept.

extraordinaryfromsingapore.blogspot.com/2009/06/paul-vi-weeping-over-abolishment-of.html

 

[rben20]

Never heard of that story. It’s so sad How could he have not known?

 

[archangel04]

The “smoke of Satan”?

i think we all know exactly what he meant by that comment, but no one will ever confirm it. It’s like the elephant in the room, we all see it, but no one will acknowledge its presence.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Definitely. Here’s an example:

youtube.com/watch?v=m3a4dwkSvsI&feature=related

I hear some Lutheran services use much of the ICEL text as well.

To be fair, though, Anglicans, Lutherans, and others (can’t necessarily remember them all) had a liturgy close to the Roman Rite for years anyways, so I’m not sure that one could say that they were “Romanized” so much as they were merely recovering liturgical ceremonies that had been discarded.

 

[ProVobis]

To be fair, though, Anglicans, Lutherans, and others (can’t necessarily remember them all) had a liturgy close to the Roman Rite for years

but not in Christianized Latin though.

 

[PA650]

Never heard of that story. It’s so sad How could he have not known?

From what I have read, Pope Paul VI signed off on the liturgical changes brought about by Archbishop Bugnini without much of an issue at the time. In other words, he allowed the liturgical expert of Archbishop Bugnini to continue his work of forming an entirely new Roman Missal with confidence that nothing causing a severe liturgical rupture would occur. In the end, prominent Catholic intellectuals at the time could only respond with universal critique. For example,

“Truly, if one of the devils in C.S. Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters had been entrusted with the ruin of the liturgy he could not have done it better.” -Dietrich von Hildebrand

 

[Phyllo]

I wonder, then , what you think of the Latin Mass when protestant observers participated at the the Council of Trent? Does this mean that the Latin Mass is “protestant?”

Again, I wasn’t there for the Council of Trent. But the Council didn’t want the Latin Mass changed or put on the back burner. Can YOU name the Protestants who participated in the council of Trent? Can you produce a document that Protestants were there?

 

[wisdomseeker]

No, I have not been to a TLM. But I have been to extremely reverent OF Masses in Latin, or with Latin propers and ordinary and French plainchant.

Have YOU ever been to a well done OF Mass?

Doesn’t sound like it. What you said is a slap in the face to the Benedictines of the Solesmes congregation, among others, who take great pains to create a reverent OF liturgy that draws deeply on tradition and Tradition, including Gregorian chant.

Don’t blame the form of the Mass for the abuses of some clergy.

This is indeed true. The Book of Common Prayer, for Anglicans, for instance, has a deep connection to its Catholic roots, and a High Church Anglican service is very reminiscent of a Tridentine Mass except for the language. In addition the High Church Anglicans have a very rich hymnology.

Compare that to the Book of Alternative Services of 1985, and you’ll see that the Anglicans are embroiled in the same sort of controversy over their services as Catholics. In some parishes both services are performed and the two groups of parishioners barely acknowledge the other. At my wife’s “low-church” BAS service, presided by a distinctly evangelical pastor, every time I attend the liturgy is less and less recognizable as such. Even my evangelical Anglican wife sometimes says he goes too far (but she likes him otherwise).

In fairness, where I attend Mass, the Latin Propers and Ordinary are used (Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory and Communion hymn as well as various tracts and sequences at different feasts/seasons). All from the Graduale Romanum and all of course scripturally-based. And it is an Ordinary Form Mass. Therefore this is a moot point as the Propers still apply to the OF Mass, albeit rearranged somewhat due to changes in the calendar and lectionary (many of the Propers are aligned to the readings).

I know I have not, do you know where there is one in my area. I have been to all of them and have found one.

Yet, how would know if a NO Mass is reverent or not? how do you measure? I am not saying that there is none, just how would know? that is all i am asking.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Never heard of that story. It’s so sad How could he have not known?

He had his guard down. He was betrayed by the enemies of Christ. We have stopped believing that traitors exist within the Church. I am not surprise at this at all.

we can see the lack of Spirituality now and days.

 

[ProVobis]

From what I have read, Pope Paul VI signed off on the liturgical changes brought about by Archbishop Bugnini without much of an issue at the time.

The only issue, if I remember right, was that Bugnini had done earlier revisions on the Missal (1955) and Pope John XXIII “fired” him, only for him to be rehired by Paul VI to continue the reforms.

Probably more noteworthy, though is that Paul VI actually signed an erroneous document on the Mass. From the book Reform of the Liturgy,

Apparently the designation of the Mass in the first edition of the Novus Ordo as “the Lord’s Supper of the holy gathering or assembly of the people of God, as they come together, into one [body], with the priest as presider and taking on the persona of Christ, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord.” has its source in the Protestant theology of the Abendmahl rite, the commemorative meal.The fact that this particular definition of the Mass appears in a document bearing the signature of Pope Paul VI, and that it became necessary later to correct it, is a painful obvious indication of how confused things are in our Church today.

Footnotes:

Original text: Cena dominica sive Missa est sacra synaxis seu congregatio populi Dei in unum convenientis sacerdote praeside personamque Christi gerente, ad memoriale Domini celebrandum, Article 7, Editio typica, p. 15

Abendmahl: literally translated as “Evening Meal,” or “Supper”; generally referred to as “The Lord’s Supper.”

The revised text is: In missa seu Cena dominca populus Dei in unum convocatur, sacerdote praeside personamque Christi gerente, ad memoriale Domini seu sacrificium eucharisticum celebrandum (“In the Mass, or Supper of the Lord, the people of God are called together into one body, with the priest as presider and taking on the persona of Christ in order to celebrate the Memorial of the Lord, or the Eucharistic Sacrifice” (Article 7, Missale Romanum, Editio typica, Vatican, 1970), p. 29

The Reform of the Liturgy, Monsignor Gamber, 1993, Una Voce Press

 

[aicirt]

According to research done by Michael Voris, to make it more protestant friendly, to remove things that might offend protestants.

LOL…because what was with that thinking? Have protestants flocked to the new Mass? I’ve asked since the 1960s and still do not have an answer. Did anyone know? Today, I flip through the hymnal wondering where they came up with these songs because we NEVER sang them in the 60s. I’m appaled by “Lord of the Dance”, a Shaker hymn. Shakers were a cult.