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PJM
Guest
Please help ME out her:
What is a “sub-Deacon?”
Also does any parish have “Acolytes?”
God Bless you,
Patrick
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What is a “sub-Deacon?”
Also does any parish have “Acolytes?”
God Bless you,
Patrick
H
Hippityhop
Guest
I have always wondered this myself. The only reason I could come up with was the transmission of disease. This is still a concern today during flu outbreaks and the like.
B
Brendan
Guest
A Subdeacon is a cleric ( like priests and deacons) but does not receive Holy Orders.
It is a clerical role that existed in Roman Catholicism prior to 1973. Pope Paul VI suppressed it in favor of the lay role of Instituted Acolyte.
But the Eastern Catholic Churches retain that order.
They perform many of the tasks that you might expect from an Instituted Acolyte, but wear vestments, including (in the East) a stole.
The Subdeacon is still a role in the Tridentine High Mass. The EF High Mass requires a celebrant Priest, a Deacon and a Subdeacon.
Those roles are generally filled by Priests or Deacons ( if there are three priests present, one will celebrate Mass, one will vest as a Deacon and read the Gospel, one will vest as a Subdeacon and read the Epistle.
In our parish, we have a man who was ordained (small ‘o’) to the Subdiaconate while he was living in Iraq. In the '60’s he emigrated with his wife to the US, but to an area with no Chaldean parish. So his children were raised as Roman Catholics, while technically being Chaldean Catholics.
After moving to the Detroit area, where there are a large number of Chaldean parishes, his children felt more at home at Roman Catholic parishes. So with the permission of both bishops, he assists at our Masses in his role as Reader and as the equivalent of an Instituted Acolyte. Those he does, as a cleric, wear the alb and stole to which he is entitled.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdeacon
V
Vico
Guest
The Byzantine minor clerics, just as in the Latin, do not receive Holy Orders.
CCEO
Canon 325 - In virtue of sacred ordination clerics are distinguished as bishops, presbyters and deacons.
Byzantine particular law:
Canon 327 §1. Men who are properly prepared can be ordained to the offices of acolyte, lector cantor and subdeacon, who are minor clerics.
B
Brendan
Guest
Interesting timing, I had this pop up on Facebook today
institute-christ-king.org/news/305/92/Join-Us-for-Ordinations-Pilgrimage-in-Florence/
The religious communities devoted to the practice of the Mass in the Extraordinary Form were granted permission to ordain men in the traditional ( pre-1973) manner.
Entry into the clerical state with tonsure as an Acolyte, then through Subdeacon, to Deacon and then Priest. This is, as Vico noted, what the Eastern Churches still do.
institute-christ-king.org/news/305/92/Join-Us-for-Ordinations-Pilgrimage-in-Florence/
The religious communities devoted to the practice of the Mass in the Extraordinary Form were granted permission to ordain men in the traditional ( pre-1973) manner.
Entry into the clerical state with tonsure as an Acolyte, then through Subdeacon, to Deacon and then Priest. This is, as Vico noted, what the Eastern Churches still do.
T
twf
Guest
Even today, distribution of the Chalice is NOT the norm everywhere. In my home Archdiocese of Vancouver, the Chalice is rarely distributed. (At the Vancouver cathedral the Chalice is NEVER distributed, EMHC are almost never used as the 7 priests in residence will come in during each of the 7 Sunday / 4 daily masses to help distribute, and the faithful always are encouraged to receive Our Lord kneeling at the altar rail). In my wife’s home country of the Dominican Republic, I have never once witnessed the Chalice being distributed. It may be the norm in most of the USA, but I get the impression that it remains unusual in much of the world. We receive Christ completely and entirely under the form of bread alone.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
If ONLY the Precious Blood were offered–how many people who prefer the practice of only receiving the Precious Body would remain in the pews and not go up to receive? I bet there would be some people who would do that which would be a shame.
If I had a choice I would like to receive by intinction kneeling at an altar rail. Sometimes I have gone to a Melkite parrish–they put a big piece of bread soaked in wine in your mouth! Now that feels like a banquet! People there take it standing, though.
If I were Pope–I would make it mandatory for all Catholics to receive the Precious Blood during the Easter Tridium and on Corpus Christi Sunday.
I fully understand that offering only the Precious Body is enough and that by receiving it you also receive the Precious Blood. It would be easier for me to sympathize with those who support that practice if the people who support that practice would also have NO problem with receiving only the Precious Blood.
I guess what I’m really saying is that unless there is a true disease epidemic happening–I have no use for the “Germophobe people”. That argument for reception of only the Precious Body is quite weak.
I do wonder if the thought of drinking Jesus’ Blood doesn’t bother some people. I think the kind of people it would bother would be those who don’t believe in transubstantiation–for them the Eucharist is only symbol–and the symbol of bread doesn’t bother them as much as the symbol of wine–representing blood does.
I think many of the people who support only receiving the Precious Body support it because that’s the way that many many times they received it.
Others think they’re being more “Catholic” by receiving only one kind because that way they think they are being NOT Protestant like.
I think that there may be some priests who rather only distribute the Precious Body only because wine costs money! That is a pittiful reason!
I think there may be other priests at large parrishes who get tired of not enough EMHCs showing up to help distribute the Precious Blood. That is pittiful, too!
I love the Precious Blood but don’t get me wrong–if the Catholic Church said I could only receive under one kind–the Precious Body–I would have no problem with that at all.
There is nothing in the universe greater than receiving Jesus in the Holy Eucharist!
If I had a choice I would like to receive by intinction kneeling at an altar rail. Sometimes I have gone to a Melkite parrish–they put a big piece of bread soaked in wine in your mouth! Now that feels like a banquet! People there take it standing, though.
If I were Pope–I would make it mandatory for all Catholics to receive the Precious Blood during the Easter Tridium and on Corpus Christi Sunday.
I fully understand that offering only the Precious Body is enough and that by receiving it you also receive the Precious Blood. It would be easier for me to sympathize with those who support that practice if the people who support that practice would also have NO problem with receiving only the Precious Blood.
I guess what I’m really saying is that unless there is a true disease epidemic happening–I have no use for the “Germophobe people”. That argument for reception of only the Precious Body is quite weak.
I do wonder if the thought of drinking Jesus’ Blood doesn’t bother some people. I think the kind of people it would bother would be those who don’t believe in transubstantiation–for them the Eucharist is only symbol–and the symbol of bread doesn’t bother them as much as the symbol of wine–representing blood does.
I think many of the people who support only receiving the Precious Body support it because that’s the way that many many times they received it.
Others think they’re being more “Catholic” by receiving only one kind because that way they think they are being NOT Protestant like.
I think that there may be some priests who rather only distribute the Precious Body only because wine costs money! That is a pittiful reason!
I think there may be other priests at large parrishes who get tired of not enough EMHCs showing up to help distribute the Precious Blood. That is pittiful, too!
I love the Precious Blood but don’t get me wrong–if the Catholic Church said I could only receive under one kind–the Precious Body–I would have no problem with that at all.
There is nothing in the universe greater than receiving Jesus in the Holy Eucharist!
J
JimG
Guest
Certainly, if only the chalice were offered to the congregation, I would receive communion in that way routinely. The practicalities are not the same, however. It would, first of all, be a lengthier process. Second, some elderly persons worry about handling the chalice without spilling. Some might have similar concerns about children.
Probably most parishes do offer communion under both kinds during the Easter Triduum, even those who do not otherwise do so routinely.
I wouldn’t discount the concern over the cost of communion wine at very large parishes. I don’t know how much wine they go through per week, but I’m sure the cost would be more than for communion hosts only.
My primary concern would be—especially with a very large parish—properly estimating the amount of sacramental wine needing to be consecrated at any particular Mass, since all that is consecrated must be consumed by the end of Mass, and any that is left over must be consumed either by the priests or EMHC’s. Sometimes if there is quite a lot left over, there is a danger of becoming a little tipsy from consuming the excess.
I really don’t think most people worry about it either way; they will receive communion in whatevever way it is offered. It is true that some will receive the host and bypass the chalice simply because the line at the chalice tends to back up, and so they return to the pew, having received the host.
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TimothyH
Guest
Your primary concern is unfounded. Consuming leftover Precious Blood is not an issue.
A good sacristan knows how much to put in the flagon for Sunday Mass and running out is more of an issue than is having some left over. If few people show up then the priest simply uses fewer chalices.
Priests know how much to pour in the chalice at daily Mass and if someone assists with distribution of the chalice they consume what is left. Consuming leftover is part of the responsibility one takes when they become an EMHC.
Priests are good at knowing how much to use. Having to consume two or three full unused chalices on his own is a great learning experience for a new priest.
-Tim-
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Brendan
Guest
There might a very small few, but most would ( just as most who would prefer both species be offered would go up to receive if only a single species was offered
Of those that do remain in the pews, I think the primary concern of those who remained in the pews would be that they had an illness that they did not wish to transmit.
My primary concern would be how to bring the Blessed Sacrament to the homebound, if that is the only species available to the faithful.
T
TimothyH
Guest
I just called our head sacristan and asked about wine. Here is some perspective.
Our Parish has 3000 families, 9000 members, seven Sunday Masses including Saturday evening. We can have up to 1000 at any given Mass. 800 people at each Mass is not uncommon. We also have three daily Masses with up to 25-50 at each.
We go through about 3 gallons of altar wine per week. At $80 per bottle (estimated) that’s $240 each week and $12,480 per year. That is not an insignificant amount of money but keep in mind that the offering runs $25k to $35k each week.
On a side note, our head sacristan (in her 80’s, I love her like my own mother) went on a mini-rant about people taking too much Precious Blood. “They are only supposed to take a drop but their parents don’t know enough to be able to teach them!”
-Tim-
Our Parish has 3000 families, 9000 members, seven Sunday Masses including Saturday evening. We can have up to 1000 at any given Mass. 800 people at each Mass is not uncommon. We also have three daily Masses with up to 25-50 at each.
We go through about 3 gallons of altar wine per week. At $80 per bottle (estimated) that’s $240 each week and $12,480 per year. That is not an insignificant amount of money but keep in mind that the offering runs $25k to $35k each week.
On a side note, our head sacristan (in her 80’s, I love her like my own mother) went on a mini-rant about people taking too much Precious Blood. “They are only supposed to take a drop but their parents don’t know enough to be able to teach them!”
-Tim-
P
ProVobis
Guest
I get tipsy just getting a whiff of it.
I don’t see how it would make me any holier to receive in this manner.
B
Brendan
Guest
We’re at about 1000 families, 7000 members ( we have a lot of particularly large families)
About the same for Mass attendance. 6 Masses, 2 Saturday evening , with the 6:00pm Saturday Mass being Extraordinary Form. That one has maybe 300-400
We also do have a Sunday evening Mass 8:00pm. That one is also substantially smaller than the others. Not that many registered parishioners. Our bishop requests that each Vicariate offer a Sunday pm Mass. We do that for our Vicariate. Most of the attendess are from other parishes who could not make their own regular Mass times, and nurses and staff from a nearby hospital.
For wine to provide both species via intinction for the 800-1000 people at the regular Masses is one decent size cruet’s worth, maybe 8oz
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boomerang
Guest
I once witnessed an elderly man chug-a-lug the entire chalice. You should have seen the look on the extraordinary minister’s face!On a side note, our head sacristan (in her 80’s, I love her like my own mother) went on a mini-rant about people taking too much Precious Blood. “They are only supposed to take a drop but their parents don’t know enough to be able to teach them!”
-Tim-
T
twf
Guest
Wow - I can’t imagine the logistics. You must have an army of EMHC just for the Chalice. As mentioned my cathedral doesn’t distribute the Chalice at all. Attendance is probably similar - thousands per Sunday (there are 7 masses on Sunday plus the Saturday night mass and 4 masses every week day often with up to 100 people per weekday mass)…so distributing the Chalice is simply not done for logistical reasons. The archbishop / rector try to keep EMHC to a minimum - so the various priests in residence come in for each mass at the appropriate time to help distribute. (There are 7 priests in residence). Without the Chalice, the priests alone are usually sufficient - especially as we use the altar rail for those along either side (those coming up the centre aisle receive standing) and as anyone who has been to more traditional parishes knows, distributing at the altar rail goes WAAAAAY faster.I just called our head sacristan and asked about wine. Here is some perspective.
Our Parish has 3000 families, 9000 members, seven Sunday Masses including Saturday evening. We can have up to 1000 at any given Mass. 800 people at each Mass is not uncommon. We also have three daily Masses with up to 25-50 at each.
We go through about 3 gallons of altar wine per week. At $80 per bottle (estimated) that’s $240 each week and $12,480 per year. That is not an insignificant amount of money but keep in mind that the offering runs $25k to $35k each week.
On a side note, our head sacristan (in her 80’s, I love her like my own mother) went on a mini-rant about people taking too much Precious Blood. “They are only supposed to take a drop but their parents don’t know enough to be able to teach them!”
-Tim-
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
I’m a Roman Catholic Convert from Easter 2011 and have never received the Precious Blood while kneeling at an Altar rail. Has the Precious Blood ever been given at an Altar rail?
T
twf
Guest
Yes, I experienced this at the Anglican Ordinariate parish in Calgary (in full communion with Rome). They receive kneeling at the altar rail under both forms. The priest distributes the host on the tongue to each individual. The deacon follows the priest and holds the Chalice while the individual takes the bottom of the Chalice and together they gently tip the Chalice into the individual’s mouth.
T
TimothyH
Guest
Yeah. People who think that the chalice should not be distributed if EMHC use is “excessive” would not like our parish. We have lots. At a full Mass there will be six chalices and six ciboria with ten EMHC’s plus priest and deacon.
This isn’t like some parishes with people swarming the altar or people bumping into each other. Our pastor is adamant about reverence for the Blessed Sacrament and consulted with the Archbishop prior to agreeing to restore the chalice. Father prepared us for months and said that he would not tolerate poor communion practices nor having to ask for EMHC’s in the middle of the communion rite. Men have to wear jacket and tie when scheduled to be an EMHC. We are required to fold purificators after distribution and place them in a basket. Washing purificators is a ministry in and of itself at our parish.
Altar servers are trained to stand at the corners of the altar, purificator in hand in case of spill and it has happened. The server will place the purificator over the spill and kneel at the spot until everyone processes out and someone can get back to clean it properly.
I am of the opinion that it is worth it even if EMHCs are required and Mass goes a little longer. It isn’t just about Jesus’ presence under either species. There is much to be gained by receiving under both kinds and our parishoners kept asking the pastor for it. He agreed but made it clear that it would be done correctly and with reverence or it would not be done at all.
It helps to have a strong pastor. Ours definitely has a strong personality.
-Tim-
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Brendan
Guest
From the chalice, I have not seen that. But ever Mass in my parish involves both species being offered at the communion rail via intinction.
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