Why was this Bible verse changed?

[tee_eff_em]

If a protestant wanted me to show him biblicial evidence of the Immacualte Conception, I could not even use a new Catholic bible to do it.

Do you turn to *sola scriptura *for every dogma of the Church?

Still, even if you choose to, you would turn to an English translation?

Still, *even *should you choose to – Is there something wrong with the otherwise perfectly Catholic Douay-Rheims translation?


tee

 

[trth_skr]

---

Yes—the pillars supporting the Church—are being undermined.

Yes, the pillars supporting the stationary earth were discarded 500 years ago, and since then, many other components of Christian civilization have been removed. If the beast can lastly remove the pillars from the Church, then the world is ready for the “little time” of Satan to begin. Of course, in the end Satan will not succeed, but in the mean time, it will get ugly.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[porthos11]

Pope Pius IX used Luke 1:28 “Hail, full of grace” as evidence to define the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. However, after Vatican II new Bibles removed this translation. Only the Douay-Rheims has the Traditional verse.

Douay-Rheims Luke 1:28 “Hail, full of grace the Lord is with thee”

The New American Bible Luke 1: 28 “ Rejoice oh highly favored daughter

King James Luke 1:28 “Hail thou that art highly favored”

Why was this verse changed? Ecumenism!! Protestants don’t believe in this dogma therefore this evidence needed to be erased from the bible.
On the introduction page of the 1970 New American Bible, there is a quote from Pope Paul VI that states that the new Bible was “made in cooperation with our separated brethren”

that’s right. Blame Vatican II for everything.

The RSV-CE has it. The Confraternity has it. So does the CCB.

Vatican II declared that the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ needs to consult with Protestants about translating the bible. Of course Protestants do not believe in the teachings of the Church and of course they have no need for the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the Vatican II document Dei Verbum it states:

Chapter VI:
22. Easy access to sacred Scripture should be provided for all
the Christian faithful….but since the Word of God should be accessible at all times, the Church by her authority and with maternal concern sees to it that
suitable and correct translations are made into different
languages, especially from the original texts of the sacred books.
And should the opportunity arise and the Church authorities
approve, if these translations are produced in cooperation with the
separated brethren as well, all Christians will be able to use them.

Yeah. So? There are many Protestant scholars who know the original languages and are even more conservative the many Catholic scholars. They do not need to share all our beliefs. They only must have a very good grasp of the languages and be honest in translating. That’s all.

Pope John Paul II agrees with this effect of ecumenism in
Ut unum sint
On commitment to Ecumenism
44. Significant progress in ecumenical cooperation has also been made in another area, that of the Word of God. I am thinking above all of the importance for the different language groups of ecumenical translations of the Bible. Following the promulgation by the Second Vatican Council of the Constitution Dei Verbum, the Catholic Church could not fail to welcome this development.75 These translations, prepared by experts, generally offer a solid basis for the prayer and pastoral activity of all Christ’s followers. Anyone who recalls how heavily debates about Scripture influenced divisions, especially in the West, can appreciate the significant step forward which these common translations represent”

And so? None of these things show anything inherently wrong with ecumenism. The Lord prayed that all might be one and Bible studies is one area where this has much potential.

This new translation will not make the Blessed Mother happy but it does fill the Protestants with joy.

Just to have you know, the King James came BEFORE Vatican II. Even before Vatican I.

Besides that, you ought to know also that “full of grace” is not the best translation in the verse either. It does not capture the fullness of the original text just like highly “favored.”

Don’t go around blaming Vatican II, ecumenism and Protestants and study your Greek more before criticizing translations.

 

[stmaria]

that’s right. Blame Vatican II for everything.

The RSV-CE has it. The Confraternity has it. So does the CCB.

Yeah. So? There are many Protestant scholars who know the original languages and are even more conservative the many Catholic scholars. They do not need to share all our beliefs. They only must have a very good grasp of the languages and be honest in translating. That’s all.

And so? None of these things show anything inherently wrong with ecumenism. The Lord prayed that all might be one and Bible studies is one area where this has much potential.

Just to have you know, the King James came BEFORE Vatican II. Even before Vatican I.

Besides that, you ought to know also that “full of grace” is not the best translation in the verse either. It does not capture the fullness of the original text just like highly “favored.”

Don’t go around blaming Vatican II, ecumenism

Ecumenism is the union of falsehood and Truth.

St Paul warns us that “the time will surely come when men will grow tired of sound doctrine” {2 Tim.4.2}

In order for ecumenism to succeed, all boundaries must fall. Religions and ideologies must unite.

The idea of ecumenism was condemned by Pope Pius XI.

On religious unity Pope Pius XI stated in “Mortalium Animos” 2.2 “such attempts….founded as they are on the **false opinion **which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy…not only are those that hold this opinion in error and deceived but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it”

9.0 “These pan-christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure the faith?”

10.0 “the **union of Christians **can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ

 

[stmaria]

Do you turn to *sola scriptura *for every dogma of the Church?

Still, even if you choose to, you would turn to an English translation?

Still, even should you choose to – Is there something wrong with the otherwise perfectly Catholic Douay-Rheims translation?

tee

Thats all the Church needs. The Douay-Rheims translation. Not some new ecumenicil translation that is pleasing to protestants.

 

[rr1213]

Isn’t the bottom line when it comes to Bible translations not the issue of being ecumenical but, rather, how accurate is the translation? What some people are saying here is that “full of grace” is not the most accurate translation of the Greek word. That’s a different issue from whether or not your Bible is acceptable to Protestants, or Orthodox or whatever.

 

[antimon]

the Immaculate Conception isn’t based on this particular verse only, so don’t worry.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Thats all the Church needs. The Douay-Rheims translation. Not some new ecumenicil translation that is pleasing to protestants.

Then I must repeat my previous question:

Do you ask me to believe that Pope Bl Pius IX relied on an *English *translation of scripture (even one as fine as the Douay-Rheims) to define the dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

tee

 

[porthos11]

Ecumenism is the union of falsehood and Truth.

Read what the Church has to say about it and obey her.

On religious unity Pope Pius XI stated in “Mortalium Animos” 2.2 “such attempts….founded as they are on the **false opinion **which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy…not only are those that hold this opinion in error and deceived but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it”

This is not ecumenism. Read Vatican II.

10.0 “the **union of Christians **can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ

This is what ecumenism really means. Do not impose the fallacy of making your own definition and then condemning the concept based on your false definition.

 

[porthos11]

Thats all the Church needs. The Douay-Rheims translation. Not some new ecumenicil translation that is pleasing to protestants.

Ah, a Douay-Rheims onlyist.

There goes sound scholarly discussion out the window.

 

[porthos11]

The Imaculate Conception is Catholic dogma not protestant. Is ecumenism unity or reunion? There is a big difference.

If a protestant wanted me to show him biblicial evidence of the Immacualte Conception, I could not even use a new Catholic bible to do it. It has been removed for ecumenical reasons and that is simply wrong.

Why would you want to defend the Immaculate Conception with a Catholic Bible? I’d be more impressed when you can do it with a Protestant one. And yes, you can easily defend the Immaculate Conception with “highly favored” if you take the time to study rather than resort to rhetoric.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Pope Pius IX used Luke 1:28 “Hail, full of grace” as evidence to define the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. However, after Vatican II new Bibles removed this translation. Only the Douay-Rheims has the Traditional verse.

Douay-Rheims Luke 1:28 “Hail, full of grace the Lord is with thee”

The New American Bible Luke 1: 28 “ Rejoice oh highly favored daughter

King James Luke 1:28 “Hail thou that art highly favored”

Why was this verse changed? Ecumenism!! Protestants don’t believe in this dogma therefore this evidence needed to be erased from the bible.
On the introduction page of the 1970 New American Bible, there is a quote from Pope Paul VI that states that the new Bible was “made in cooperation with our separated brethren”

Vatican II declared that the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ needs to consult with Protestants about translating the bible. Of course Protestants do not believe in the teachings of the Church and of course they have no need for the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the Vatican II document Dei Verbum it states:

Chapter VI:
22. Easy access to sacred Scripture should be provided for all
the Christian faithful….but since the Word of God should be accessible at all times, the Church by her authority and with maternal concern sees to it that
suitable and correct translations are made into different
languages, especially from the original texts of the sacred books.
And should the opportunity arise and the Church authorities
approve, if these translations are produced in cooperation with the
separated brethren as well, all Christians will be able to use them.

Pope John Paul II agrees with this effect of ecumenism in
Ut unum sint
On commitment to Ecumenism
44. Significant progress in ecumenical cooperation has also been made in another area, that of the Word of God. I am thinking above all of the importance for the different language groups of ecumenical translations of the Bible. Following the promulgation by the Second Vatican Council of the Constitution Dei Verbum, the Catholic Church could not fail to welcome this development.75 These translations, prepared by experts, generally offer a solid basis for the prayer and pastoral activity of all Christ’s followers. Anyone who recalls how heavily debates about Scripture influenced divisions, especially in the West, can appreciate the significant step forward which these common translations represent”

This new translation will not make the Blessed Mother happy but it does fill the Protestants with joy.

As I understand it, one translation came from the latin vulgate, the other came from the greek. How is going back to original sources undermining the church?

 

[gorman64]

Ecumenism is the union of falsehood and Truth.

St Paul warns us that “the time will surely come when men will grow tired of sound doctrine” {2 Tim.4.2}

In order for ecumenism to succeed, all boundaries must fall. Religions and ideologies must unite.

The idea of ecumenism was condemned by Pope Pius XI.

On religious unity Pope Pius XI stated in “Mortalium Animos” 2.2 “such attempts….founded as they are on the **false opinion **which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy…not only are those that hold this opinion in error and deceived but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it”

9.0 “These pan-christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure the faith?”

10.0 “the **union of Christians **can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ

There is such a thing as true ecumenism…Pius XI was condemning a FALSE ecumenism in Mortalium Animos.

Also, the conciliar church claims only to subsist in that one true church…although they claim that one true church is also composed of heretical and schismatic sects in “partial communion”.

 

[stmaria]

Then I must repeat my previous question:

Do you ask me to believe that Pope Bl Pius IX relied on an *English *translation of scripture (even one as fine as the Douay-Rheims) to define the dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

tee

See if you can find the latin text. papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

*Ineffabilis Deus *

The Annunciation

When the Fathers and writers of the Church meditated on the fact that the most Blessed Virgin was, in the name and by order of God himself, proclaimed full of grace[22] by the Angel Gabriel when he announced her most sublime dignity of Mother of God, they thought that this singular and solemn salutation, never heard before, showed that the Mother of God is the seat of all divine graces and is adorned with all gifts of the Holy Spirit. To them Mary is an almost infinite treasury, an inexhaustible abyss of these gifts, to such an extent that she was never subject to the curse and was, together with her Son, the only partaker of perpetual benediction. Hence she was worthy to hear Elizabeth, inspired by the Holy Spirit, exclaim: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”[23]

 

[stmaria]

Why would you want to defend the Immaculate Conception with a Catholic Bible? I’d be more impressed when you can do it with a Protestant one. And yes, you can easily defend the Immaculate Conception with “highly favored” if you take the time to study rather than resort to rhetoric.

Since you seem to find the new translation acceptable, the next time you pray the rosary why not say it like this:

Hail, Mary** oh highly favored daughter**, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen

 

[stmaria]

There is such a thing as true ecumenism…Pius XI was condemning a FALSE ecumenism in Mortalium Animos.

Also, the conciliar church claims only to subsist in that one true church…although they claim that one true church is also composed of heretical and schismatic sects in “partial communion”.

What is being practiced is false ecumenism. Did Pope John Paul ever asked any of the protestants or pagans to convert? After 40 years of this false ecumenism it is the Catholic Church that is making all the changes and trying to become more protestant.

And yes the Church doesn’t say it* is *the One True Church, it says the One True Church *subsists *in the Church, which implies that the True Church exists outside the Catholic Church.

 

[tee_eff_em]

See if you can find the latin text. papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

*Ineffabilis Deus *

The Annunciation

When the Fathers and writers of the Church meditated on the fact that the most Blessed Virgin was, in the name and by order of God himself, proclaimed full of grace[22] by the Angel Gabriel when he announced her most sublime dignity of Mother of God, they thought that this singular and solemn salutation, never heard before, showed that the Mother of God is the seat of all divine graces and is adorned with all gifts of the Holy Spirit. To them Mary is an almost infinite treasury, an inexhaustible abyss of these gifts, to such an extent that she was never subject to the curse and was, together with her Son, the only partaker of perpetual benediction. Hence she was worthy to hear Elizabeth, inspired by the Holy Spirit, exclaim: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”[23]

books.google.com/books?q=%22Official+Documents+Connected+with+the+Definition+of+the+Dogma+of+the+Immaculate+Conception+of+the+Blessed+Virgin+Mary%22+%22gratia+plenam%22&btnG=Search+Books

*Cum vero ipsi Patres, Ecclesiaeque Scriptores animo menteque reputarent, beatissimam Virginem ab Angelo Gabriele Sublimissimam Dei Matris Dignitatem ei nuntiate,

ipsius Dei

nomine et

jussu gratia plenam fuisse nuncupatam

docuerunt hac singulari solemnique salutatione nunquam alias audita ostendi, Deiparam fuisse omnium divinarum gratiarum sedem, omnibusque divini Spiritus charismatibus exornatam, immo eorumdem charismatum infinitum prope thesaurum, abyssumque inexhaustam, adeo et nunquam maledicto obnoxia, et una cum Filio perpetuae benedictionis particeps ab Elisabeth divino acta Spiritu audire meruerit benedicta Tu inter mulieres, et benedictus fructus ventris tui.*

tee
who apologizes if he has made any typos

 

[gorman64]

stmaria:

What is being practiced is false ecumenism. Did Pope John Paul ever asked any of the protestants or pagans to convert? After 40 years of this false ecumenism it is the Catholic Church that is making all the changes and trying to become more protestant.

And yes the Church doesn’t say it* is *the One True Church, it says the One True Church *subsists *in the Church, which implies that the True Church exists outside the Catholic Church.

And all this is heretical is it not?

From Mortalium Animos, Pope Pius XI:

1. A similar object is aimed at by some, in those matters which concern the New Law promulgated by Christ our Lord. For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.

1. … For authors who favor this view are accustomed, times almost without number, to bring forward these words of Christ: “That they all may be one… And there shall be one fold and one shepherd,”[14] with this signification however: that Christ Jesus merely expressed a desire and prayer, which still lacks its fulfillment. … **Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ. **

 

[tee_eff_em]

*subsists *in

…I do not think that word means, what you think it means…

tee
“… You killed my father. Prepare to die”

 

[shawn34_a]

You are correct. These changes are very worrying and are proving to have terrible effects upon the Church.

I would not say your correct! The Tyndale New Testament says "And the angel went in unto her, and said: Hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

I have a Jerusalem Bible, Catholic Bible, that says “Rejoice, so highly favoured! The Lord is with you.”

Wycliffe Bible states " Hail, full of grace. The Lord be with thee. Blessed be thou among women."

NKJ states “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.”.

Don’t blame the Protestants for Catholics changing what they believe. If the Catholic church is so divine, why did they change their own text?