Why was this Bible verse changed?

[Sabda]

I would not say your correct! The Tyndale New Testament says "And the angel went in unto her, and said: Hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

I have a Jerusalem Bible, Catholic Bible, that says “Rejoice, so highly favoured! The Lord is with you.”

Wycliffe Bible states " Hail, full of grace. The Lord be with thee. Blessed be thou among women."

NKJ states “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.”.

Don’t blame the Protestants for Catholics changing what they believe. If the Catholic church is so divine, why did they change their own text?

The official Bible of the Church is the Latin Vulgate. None of the English Bibles are considered to be an official Bible of the whole Church. However, some of them are considered acceptable for a Catholic to read.

For the record my RSV-CE from Oxford says “Hail full of grace”.
It’s my understanding that this is the same translation that was used for the CCC.

The Church is not changing it’s beliefs. That word used in Luke simply does not translate all that well into English. That’s the real problem. Of course this makes accuracy difficult. Isn’t accuracy important?

BTW, as someone pointed out earlier we do not rely on only Luke 1:28 for our belief in the Immaculate Conception. There’s more to it, in the Bible, than that.

 

[porthos11]

Since you seem to find the new translation acceptable, the next time you pray the rosary why not say it like this:

Hail, Mary** oh highly favored daughter**, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen

That’s not the point. I have no problem with “full of grace.” I have no problem with “highly favored” either. I prefer “full of grace”

Your problem is that you refuse to study the depths of the Scripture, take your shallow understanding of the Church and her tradition, and rile against Protestants, when all this time the Church isn’t doing what you are accusing it of doing.

As for false ecumenism, you have no right to say that it is. Neither do I or anyone else on this forum. Only the Magisterium can say so.

So maybe Pope John Paul II didn’t ask people to convert. Perhaps Assissi and the Koran incident weren’t the most prudent actions of his life. So what? That doesn’t change the fact that the Church says it’s URGENT that her missionary mandate continue, and that is CLEARLY stated in the Catechism.

Oh, wait. Who promulgated the Catechism? Oh right! Pope John Paul II.

And yes, other Christians are in partial communion with the Catholic Church. The Bible says so. That does not mean their salvation is assured, and the Church clearly teaches that also and mandates their being brought into full communion, and that is the teaching of Vatican II, an Ecumenical Council of the Church.

So don’t go around blaming Vatican II for your woes. Submit to the Church first, then maybe you will be given the grace of understanding.

 

[porthos11]

Don’t blame the Protestants for Catholics changing what they believe. If the Catholic church is so divine, why did they change their own text?

Maybe because the Catholic didn’t change their beliefs and most Catholics are smart enough to at least know the nuances behind translation.

Outside of the Greek, that text isn’t as earth-shattering as many would make it out to be. When Catholics explain it, neither the English (regardless of rendering) or the Latin cuts it enough.

That why I always say, when explaining this verse, GO TO THE GREEK!

 

[lak611]

That why I always say, when explaining this verse, GO TO THE GREEK!

Here’s the Greek from Strong’s Concordance:

G5487
χαριτόω
charitoō; from G5485; to make graceful, endow with grace: - favored (1), freely bestowed (1).

 

[porthos11]

Here’s the Greek from Strong’s Concordance:

That’s just the base.

The case, tense, and mood are essential too.

 

[lak611]

That’s just the base.

The case, tense, and mood are essential too.

True. In any event, though, it appears that “full of grace” and “highly favoured” are both acceptable renderings of the Greek. Catholics do not practice “sola scriptura” anyway, so this verse does not diminish Marian dogma.

 

[porthos11]

True. In any event, though, it appears that “full of grace” and “highly favoured” are both acceptable renderings of the Greek. Catholics do not practice “sola scriptura” anyway, so this verse does not diminish Marian dogma.

Right. “Full of grace” is slightly closer, but it’s not perfect. It’s not possible to cleanly translate this passage into English.

 

[gorman64]

What is being practiced is false ecumenism. Did Pope John Paul ever asked any of the protestants or pagans to convert? After 40 years of this false ecumenism it is the Catholic Church that is making all the changes and trying to become more protestant.

And yes the Church doesn’t say it* is *the One True Church, it says the One True Church *subsists *in the Church, which implies that the True Church exists outside the Catholic Church.

Practiced??? It is in the Code…it is in the Catechisms…it is taught everywhere. The Catholic Church does not become protestant…they founded a new protestant church and vast majority of Catholics followed them.

Did Pope John Paul ever asked any of the protestants or pagans to convert?

Not only did he not ask them to convert…he believes they do not need to convert. That is simply not a Catholic position.

 

[stmaria]

…I do not think that word means, what you think it means…

tee
“… You killed my father. Prepare to die”

Tell me what it means to you,

 

[stmaria]

Here are a few more inspiring new translations:

Douay-Rheims Luke 1:46 “My soul doth magnify the Lord”

Catholic American Bible “My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord”

Douay Rheims Matt 16:26 “ For what does it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, but suffer the loss of his own soul?”

Catholic American Bible” what profit would a man show if he were to gain the whole world and destroy himself in the process”

 

[rr1213]

Practiced??? It is in the Code…it is in the Catechisms…it is taught everywhere. The Catholic Church does not become protestant…they founded a new protestant church and vast majority of Catholics followed them.

Not only did he not ask them to convert…he believes they do not need to convert. That is simply not a Catholic position.

I am still trying to understand Catholics and the various divisions within Catholicism. From what you’ve said above, is it fair to assume that you are not in communion with Rome?

 

[tee_eff_em]

Tell me what it means to you,

Well, you’d said:

And yes the Church doesn’t say it* is *the One True Church, it says the One True Church *subsists *in the Church, which implies that the True Church exists outside the Catholic Church.

I cannot answer your question without knowing: What do you mean when you say the *“True Church exists outside the Catholic Church” *and why does this implication seem to upset you?

Do you mean the “True Church” exists *completely *outside the Catholic Church? I do not understand how you infer this from subsists in?

Do you mean *elements of *the “True Church” exist outside the Catholic Church? To me this seems patently obvious without the use of *subsists in *nor do I understand why it should surprise or upset you?

PS
I don’t think the Church speaks of the “One True Church” in this context, rather the “Church of Christ” – But that is neither here nor there. However, if this dialog should continue, I expect I shall use the term “Church of Christ” henceforth.

tee

 

[gorman64]

I am still trying to understand Catholics and the various divisions within Catholicism. From what you’ve said above, is it fair to assume that you are not in communion with Rome?

First, rr1213, you’ll need to understand what it means to be in communion with Rome…what did the Church Herself teach prior to this crisis. From those principles you can then see that the New Order is just that…a new order. Those who hold fast to the traditions they have learned are truly in communion with Rome…they are the ones keeping the Faith.

 

[rr1213]

First, rr1213, you’ll need to understand what it means to be in communion with Rome…what did the Church Herself teach prior to this crisis. From those principles you can then see that the New Order is just that…a new order. Those who hold fast to the traditions they have learned are truly in communion with Rome…they are the ones keeping the Faith.

Ok, so you are not in communion with Pope Benedict, correct? Do you recognize him as the legitimate Pope?

 

[Sabda]

Here are a few more inspiring new translations:

Douay-Rheims Luke 1:46 “My soul doth magnify the Lord”

Catholic American Bible “My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord”

Douay Rheims Matt 16:26 “ For what does it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, but suffer the loss of his own soul?”

Catholic American Bible” what profit would a man show if he were to gain the whole world and destroy himself in the process”

If you don’t like the NAB then simple don’t read it! It truly is that simple. Find you another modern English version that you do like. If the DRV is the only one you like than use it and don’t worry about the other translations. I also have an NAB and don’t care for the footnotes, which are right along side the Scriptures, so it is no longer my daily Bible. My daily Bible is the RSV-CE from Oxford which, like I said above, translates the verse as “Hail full of grace”. No one is forcing you to read the NAB. The NAB is a Bible that is exceptable for us to read but it is not the official Bible of the Church.

 

[stmaria]

If you don’t like the NAB then simple don’t read it! It truly is that simple. Find you another modern English version that you do like. If the DRV is the only one you like than use it and don’t worry about the other translations. I also have an NAB and don’t care for the footnotes, which are right along side the Scriptures, so it is no longer my daily Bible. My daily Bible is the RSV-CE from Oxford which, like I said above, translates the verse as “Hail full of grace”. No one is forcing you to read the NAB. The NAB is a Bible that is exceptable for us to read but it is not the official Bible of the Church.

What is the official Bible of the Catholic Church. The King James?

 

[lak611]

stmaria:
What is the official Bible of the Catholic Church. The King James?
No, the Nova Vulgata.

 

[stmaria]

Well, you’d said:

I cannot answer your question without knowing: What do you mean when you say the *“True Church exists outside the Catholic Church” *and why does this implication seem to upset you?

Do you mean the “True Church” exists *completely *outside the Catholic Church? I do not understand how you infer this from subsists in?

Poe Pius XII declared that "13. If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ – which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church

Do you mean *elements of *the “True Church” exist outside the Catholic Church? To me this seems patently obvious without the use of *subsists in *nor do I understand why it should surprise or upset you?

PS
I don’t think the Church speaks of the “One True Church” in this context, rather the “Church of Christ” – But that is neither here nor there. However, if this dialog should continue, I expect I shall use the term “Church of Christ” henceforth.

tee

Pope Pius XII declared:

1. If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ --** which is **the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church

What Pope Pius said has a completely different meaning from saying the true Chruch Subsists in the Catholic Church. That word implies that the One True Chruch can be found outside the Catholic Church. It cannot. The branch theory was condemned by the pre-Vatican II church.

The word subsists in was used by Vatican II so as not to offend the Protestant observers who were at the Council.

 

[Rusty_eyes]

Is it not the interpretation that holds more significance than the translation!!! We could sit here for years arguing the translation, but God has given the Church the authority to teach and interpret His Holy Scriptures. Indeed, He has given the Church the responsibility to do so! We must remember that the Pope does not rely on human understanding of scripture, but on divine guidance. As such, who are we to refute God???!

Prayers, Ann

 

[shawn34_a]

You are correct. These changes are very worrying and are proving to have terrible effects upon the Church.

Don’t blame Protestants for this! I’m Catholic, but my Tyndale and Wycliffe Bibles both have “hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

Ecumenism definitely has been a movement on behalf of the Catholic church to bring non-Catholic denominations back to the Roman Catholic church.