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NotWorthy
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John Paul II, General Audience of September 4, 1996, in Theotokos, 134-135.
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mlchance
Guest
Because that is what the story says. Unless, of course, you think God is arbitrary, and he’s going to punish Zechariah and not Mary for the same thing.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Philthy
Guest
I don’t think Im right, but this is why I threw out the teaser about Mary’s unique status (saved in advance of the Crucifixion). I thought someone might argue that the “punishment” Mary deserved had already been paid for her…in the same unique way that her original sin had been dealt with. No takers, though, and Im not surprised, because such thinking would lead to a Mary that would have actually sinned.
Apparently Mary did not doubt Gods promise, just the means of it, despite what we may infer from the translations cited and at the basic level that most of us are reading it at. The evidence for this is that she was not punished, but praised. Further proof was Elizabeths “blessed are you who believed” and also the excellent parallel drawn from the life of Daniel. All great stuff - thanks again
Phil
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NotWorthy
Guest
Mary Sinned? Yeah…Right… And I’m the Pope.
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bones_IV
Guest
:clapping:
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
A point to consider: when Mary asked “How shall this be” she was NOT asking “how” in the “birds and bees” sense. Mary was a young woman, not a small child. She knew that babies weren’t brought by the stork.
When Mary asked “How can this be” what she was saying was, “God, you know that I have vowed my virginity to you. I believe that this will happen as you say, but HOW can this be accomplished if I am to maintain my vow to you?”
As I have no doubt drilled into people’s ears (sorry guys), the NORMAL answer from a normal woman who is engaged to be married, who is told “You will bear a son” is NOT “how can this be, since I am a virgin and do not have relations with a man” BUT"Oh cool–so we’re gonna have a boy!"
So Mary most certainly believed–and accepted–everything that God told her, even to the point, not of questioning Him, but of being willing to completely abrogate her own wishes, even her own vow, if it was the will of God.
Basically she was saying, “How can this be? Do you release me from my vow? Whatever you wish of me, I will do”. This is proven by the fact that when the angel told her what would occur, Mary said, “I am the servant of the Lord. Be it done to me as you say”.
Mary would have said the same if God had told her that her vow was abolished, or anything else (since we know that God is all good and HIS will be done, so whatever He asked Mary to do would be “the right thing”). And Mary knew it.
When Mary asked “How can this be” what she was saying was, “God, you know that I have vowed my virginity to you. I believe that this will happen as you say, but HOW can this be accomplished if I am to maintain my vow to you?”
As I have no doubt drilled into people’s ears (sorry guys), the NORMAL answer from a normal woman who is engaged to be married, who is told “You will bear a son” is NOT “how can this be, since I am a virgin and do not have relations with a man” BUT"Oh cool–so we’re gonna have a boy!"
So Mary most certainly believed–and accepted–everything that God told her, even to the point, not of questioning Him, but of being willing to completely abrogate her own wishes, even her own vow, if it was the will of God.
Basically she was saying, “How can this be? Do you release me from my vow? Whatever you wish of me, I will do”. This is proven by the fact that when the angel told her what would occur, Mary said, “I am the servant of the Lord. Be it done to me as you say”.
Mary would have said the same if God had told her that her vow was abolished, or anything else (since we know that God is all good and HIS will be done, so whatever He asked Mary to do would be “the right thing”). And Mary knew it.
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awalt
Guest
I have the answer!!!
Courtesy of one of our wonderful Priests! It’s obvious! We didn’t read far enough back!
Here is why Gabriel punished Zechariah - read verse 13:
But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
Zechariah had been **PRAYING **for a son, and when Gabriel came and said his prayers were answered, Zechariah lost his faith and asked how God could do that! The moral is to pray with faith, and when your prayers are answered, accept it - don’t come back and challenge God as to how He can do that…
Mary on the other hand, was not praying to have a son, the Son of God, or anything - she was clueless so her question was exactly that - a simple question. Different situation.
Courtesy of one of our wonderful Priests! It’s obvious! We didn’t read far enough back!
Here is why Gabriel punished Zechariah - read verse 13:
But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
Zechariah had been **PRAYING **for a son, and when Gabriel came and said his prayers were answered, Zechariah lost his faith and asked how God could do that! The moral is to pray with faith, and when your prayers are answered, accept it - don’t come back and challenge God as to how He can do that…
Mary on the other hand, was not praying to have a son, the Son of God, or anything - she was clueless so her question was exactly that - a simple question. Different situation.
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BayCityRickL
Guest
There’s some great insights here. I would like to add as a footnote that Zachariah was priest, a Levite.
And, as the Gospel says, he and Elizabeth were faithful to observe the Law and all the regulations. They were righteous by the Law.
Perhaps it’s been said in the preceding excellent posts in one fashion or another, but I’ll put it this way. We should really pray with the expectation of our prayers being answered. I think scripture somewhere tells us that. We should pray that way and also with no disappointment if our prayers are not answered the way we want. (And, as always, nothing is impossible with the Lord.)
Striking him silent creates an unusual situation. Elizabeth would have noticed that while his mouth is not working – how shall I put it? – the rest of him is working just fine. Perhaps if he had continued speaking, Elizabeth might have had a crisis of faith as well.
It might well have taken Elizabeth a while to realize herself what was going on, and that her prayer had been answered. Certainly by the time Mary visits her, she is fully aware and inspired.
It strikes me that details like that of Zachariah being struck dumb make these gospel characters very real, even if that detail itself involves such supernatural intervention.
It shows that there are some times when we should just shut up and get to work – a lesson that I didn’t learn early enough in life and have not yet completely mastered.
And, as the Gospel says, he and Elizabeth were faithful to observe the Law and all the regulations. They were righteous by the Law.
Perhaps it’s been said in the preceding excellent posts in one fashion or another, but I’ll put it this way. We should really pray with the expectation of our prayers being answered. I think scripture somewhere tells us that. We should pray that way and also with no disappointment if our prayers are not answered the way we want. (And, as always, nothing is impossible with the Lord.)
Striking him silent creates an unusual situation. Elizabeth would have noticed that while his mouth is not working – how shall I put it? – the rest of him is working just fine. Perhaps if he had continued speaking, Elizabeth might have had a crisis of faith as well.
It might well have taken Elizabeth a while to realize herself what was going on, and that her prayer had been answered. Certainly by the time Mary visits her, she is fully aware and inspired.
It strikes me that details like that of Zachariah being struck dumb make these gospel characters very real, even if that detail itself involves such supernatural intervention.
It shows that there are some times when we should just shut up and get to work – a lesson that I didn’t learn early enough in life and have not yet completely mastered.
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DaveBj
Guest
There is something else that nobody has seen from this pericope. Zechariah was not just struck mute; apparently he was struck deaf as well. Note, from further down in the chapter:
DaveBj
If he had been only mute for the last 9+ months of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, everyone would have known that he could still hear, and that there was no need to make signs to him.
DaveBj
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springbreeze
Guest
Dear friends
Mary was justified to ask the Angel Gabriel this question as she entered the Temple at three years of age as St Anne promised to God that if she bore a child she would give that child back to God to serve Him and therefore the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary entered the Temple and took a vow of virginity and in this her entire service to God is complete, therefore she can say ‘I am the handmaid of the Lord’ and to no other. This vow would not be broken even in her marriage to St Joseph, so her question ‘How can this be as I have not known man?’ is more in relation to her vow to God to remain a virgin until death and Mary ever obdeient wishes to remain obedient to God and her vow to Him and she thoroughly tests the spirits here knwoing her vow to God, so rightfully the Angel Gabriel explains to her how this will be and her vow to God remains intact. After learning this, this satisifies Mary of the spirits origin and the fact that it is the will of God and she gives her fiat ‘Let it be done unto me according to thy word’ , Whereas Zachariah who is a just man, doubts and that is the sum of his question to the Angel, therefore he was struck dumb and seeing everything come to pass as the Angel foretold, once he is able to speak the first words he says are in praise to God which is the only just reaction and Zachariah being just praises God for His works. Here in Zachariah we see the first act of repentance foreshadowing that of which St John the Baptist, his son, will preach of repentance in Baptism.
God Bless you and much love and peace to you
Teresa
Mary was justified to ask the Angel Gabriel this question as she entered the Temple at three years of age as St Anne promised to God that if she bore a child she would give that child back to God to serve Him and therefore the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary entered the Temple and took a vow of virginity and in this her entire service to God is complete, therefore she can say ‘I am the handmaid of the Lord’ and to no other. This vow would not be broken even in her marriage to St Joseph, so her question ‘How can this be as I have not known man?’ is more in relation to her vow to God to remain a virgin until death and Mary ever obdeient wishes to remain obedient to God and her vow to Him and she thoroughly tests the spirits here knwoing her vow to God, so rightfully the Angel Gabriel explains to her how this will be and her vow to God remains intact. After learning this, this satisifies Mary of the spirits origin and the fact that it is the will of God and she gives her fiat ‘Let it be done unto me according to thy word’ , Whereas Zachariah who is a just man, doubts and that is the sum of his question to the Angel, therefore he was struck dumb and seeing everything come to pass as the Angel foretold, once he is able to speak the first words he says are in praise to God which is the only just reaction and Zachariah being just praises God for His works. Here in Zachariah we see the first act of repentance foreshadowing that of which St John the Baptist, his son, will preach of repentance in Baptism.
God Bless you and much love and peace to you
Teresa
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NotWorthy
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Springbreeze, how accurate is the Protoevangelium of James? I understand it’s not considered inspired, but does Tradition hold it to be accurate?
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Traditional_Ang
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Ghosty:
In this case, Gabriel “Proved” he could do it by striking Zachariah dumb or rendering him speechless. The punishment was also the proof!
In Christ, Michael
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BayCityRickL
Guest
Well, another thought on this.
We tend to look at Zechariah’s problem as punishment. But, is that because of our American vocabulary, as opposed to the Christian vocabulary that we should be using?
Was he “punished” or “chastised”? Now some will say that is “antics with semantics.”
But, chastisement seems to have more of the appropriate spiritual overtone to it. His punishment was not merely punishment, it was chastisement.
Punishment seems to suggest motives of revenge, but this was not a mere ordinary incident. It was given to him by God for a reason.
Notice, too, how the historical critical skeptics can have a field day with this entire incident. The gospel relates the incident with Gabriel that was witnessed by no third party observer. They would undoubtedly ravage these verses by saying that they were contrived to enhance the whole story, to enhance the pedigree of John, the Baptizer. The prophecies foretelling about John had to be fulfilled.
Perhaps the episode of Zechariah’s inability to speak underscores how God was intervening at this moment in history. And, a chastisement is particularly a sign of the intervention of God.
We tend to look at Zechariah’s problem as punishment. But, is that because of our American vocabulary, as opposed to the Christian vocabulary that we should be using?
Was he “punished” or “chastised”? Now some will say that is “antics with semantics.”
But, chastisement seems to have more of the appropriate spiritual overtone to it. His punishment was not merely punishment, it was chastisement.
Punishment seems to suggest motives of revenge, but this was not a mere ordinary incident. It was given to him by God for a reason.
Notice, too, how the historical critical skeptics can have a field day with this entire incident. The gospel relates the incident with Gabriel that was witnessed by no third party observer. They would undoubtedly ravage these verses by saying that they were contrived to enhance the whole story, to enhance the pedigree of John, the Baptizer. The prophecies foretelling about John had to be fulfilled.
Perhaps the episode of Zechariah’s inability to speak underscores how God was intervening at this moment in history. And, a chastisement is particularly a sign of the intervention of God.
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Traditional_Ang
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Philthy:
The Gospel of Luke states that Zachariah didn’t believe, but that the Blessed Virgin Mary did. Angels are capable of examining people’s hearts and seeing whether they believe or not.
Therefore, since the Angel Gabriel is the one making the declaration in both cases, we have to conclude that he saw real disbelief in Zachariah and decided that he would provide Zachariah with the proof he needed by striking him dumb.
Mary needed no such proof. Her question is only a statement that she’s a virgin - recorded by St. Luke to confirm the prophecy from Isaiah.
In Christ, Michael
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scriabin
Guest
Excellent question! The 2 responses from Zechariah and Mary seem to be qualitatively the same. But from the ensuing events it’s clear they’re worlds apart–one doubting, the other trusting. How can this be explained?
I believe the answer lies in the question. Why not ask this: How come we 21st century English speakers seeped in Rationalism from Western culture can’t perceive the nuances from an English translation of the Koine Greek transliteration of 2 quotes from Middle Eastern Hebrews spoken 2000 years ago?
There are many Hebraisms, euphemisms, and plain old turns of a phrase that cannot be conveyed in English text. We see this in many forms. Here’s a common one: “Since Scripture mentions
‘brothers and sisters’ of Jesus, Mary wasn’t perpetually virgin!” Most common Protestant beliefs come from reading a face value of Scripture text. I believe our confusion in misunderstanding these verses of Zechariah and Mary is from the same reason.
I believe the answer lies in the question. Why not ask this: How come we 21st century English speakers seeped in Rationalism from Western culture can’t perceive the nuances from an English translation of the Koine Greek transliteration of 2 quotes from Middle Eastern Hebrews spoken 2000 years ago?
There are many Hebraisms, euphemisms, and plain old turns of a phrase that cannot be conveyed in English text. We see this in many forms. Here’s a common one: “Since Scripture mentions
‘brothers and sisters’ of Jesus, Mary wasn’t perpetually virgin!” Most common Protestant beliefs come from reading a face value of Scripture text. I believe our confusion in misunderstanding these verses of Zechariah and Mary is from the same reason.
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Pendragon58
Guest
Let us all be honest and simply accept we are all interpreting what we think they meant by their questions, but we don’t know what was actually in both their hearts. Although I have to admit if I was in Zac’s place I would have been asking the same thing. Now it made me think of something else though, should we be admonished for questioning something that as a simple human being could not be possible? Also, I’m pretty sure Mary knew about all the other “God Births” as well. It has always bothered me when God punishes when we are continually taught to love thy enemy, it always seems to me like you don’t believe me ok boom something happened to you. At least it seemed that way a lot in the Old Testament, in any case I have to side with the fact Zac should not have been punished for simply asking how.
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DaveBj
Guest
This is an ancient thread, and we’re not supposed to resurrect ancient threads, but I’m going to respond. I don’t see that what happened was punishment. Zech asked, “How will I know?” Gabe answered, "This is how you will . . . "
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CaptFun
Guest
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHvDf7-w52wY5NDkg-8NXkrssXEjnTjqb5EBsytQJKPWQwyUaIng
The answer is subtle but is answered in Luke 1. Short answer: Zechariah “did not believe” verse 20. Mary “believed” verse 45 .
Gabriel (sent from God the Father) pulls rank on the “per diem High Priest by lot” :
Luke 1:18 Then Zechariah said to the angel,** “How shall I know this?** For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.”
19 And the angel said to him in reply, "I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news.
20 But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, **because you did not believe **my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time."
Mary’s words were similar to Zechariah’s but with a world of diffeence …
Luke 1:34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”
35 And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
36 And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
37 for nothing will be impossible for God."
38 Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.
But it is Elizabeth herself (FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT) that solves the mystery when Mary comes to visit her.
Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me?
44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
45 Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
Mary believed … Zechariah doubted
Zechariah afraid at what he saw (an Angel appearing)
Mary disturbed by what she heard (An Angel giving her an effusive greeting).
Gabriel pulls rank on Zechariah (the ranking person in the holiest country on earth!)
But says “Hail …” to Mary, the Lord’s humble handmaid … but God’s designee.
Demoted, Zechariah must wait at home until healed.
Promoted, Mary’s first task is the humble service to one in need - and a journey
Elizabeth - filled with the Holy Spirit does homage to her younger relative as the “mother of my Lord” though He was yet “unborn”.
Elizabeth - takes Zechariah’s place in naming the child John. When he agrees he is healed.
Mary bursts out with a soaring praise of God in prayer recounting that God had “done great things for her.”
Zechariah bursts out with a soaring prayer of repentance and prophesies about his son and the Lord he will serve.
Luke’s Gospel is a masterpiece … and why not … as he quoted Gabriel (probably getting the information from Mary … who was the eye-and-ear witness of him speaking it)
… "… For nothing will be impossible for God! "
The answer is subtle but is answered in Luke 1. Short answer: Zechariah “did not believe” verse 20. Mary “believed” verse 45 .
Gabriel (sent from God the Father) pulls rank on the “per diem High Priest by lot” :
Luke 1:18 Then Zechariah said to the angel,** “How shall I know this?** For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.”
19 And the angel said to him in reply, "I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news.
20 But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, **because you did not believe **my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time."
Mary’s words were similar to Zechariah’s but with a world of diffeence …
Luke 1:34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”
35 And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
36 And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
37 for nothing will be impossible for God."
38 Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.
But it is Elizabeth herself (FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT) that solves the mystery when Mary comes to visit her.
Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me?
44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
45 Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
Mary believed … Zechariah doubted
Zechariah afraid at what he saw (an Angel appearing)
Mary disturbed by what she heard (An Angel giving her an effusive greeting).
Gabriel pulls rank on Zechariah (the ranking person in the holiest country on earth!)
But says “Hail …” to Mary, the Lord’s humble handmaid … but God’s designee.
Demoted, Zechariah must wait at home until healed.
Promoted, Mary’s first task is the humble service to one in need - and a journey
Elizabeth - filled with the Holy Spirit does homage to her younger relative as the “mother of my Lord” though He was yet “unborn”.
Elizabeth - takes Zechariah’s place in naming the child John. When he agrees he is healed.
Mary bursts out with a soaring praise of God in prayer recounting that God had “done great things for her.”
Zechariah bursts out with a soaring prayer of repentance and prophesies about his son and the Lord he will serve.
Luke’s Gospel is a masterpiece … and why not … as he quoted Gabriel (probably getting the information from Mary … who was the eye-and-ear witness of him speaking it)
… "… For nothing will be impossible for God! "
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CaptFun
Guest
I had a new (for me) thought on this re: Gabriel’s behavior.
**Zechariah should have known better than to doubt.
**
True … angels appearing is startling … but his office was such that he’d probably have learned and taught about angels.
But once he
… SEES and Angel
… who seems to know his secret prayer for a son
… and he appears in the most obvious place for it to happen in the world (the temple sanctuary … the holy place)
… and though Zechariah knows of Sarah and Rachel and Hannah “miraculously conceiving” in their old age or after praying for a long time
– he is still cynical and comes up with – why it can’t happen now. Insulting the angel as he disbelieves in God.
Being struck dumb tended to strengthen his faith by then. And it served to be a marvel to all Jerusalem (as it would of course). Later, after John and Jesus were both gone - some of the older folks would have remembered the Zechariah part of the story as an “oh yeah …” that would help spread the Gospel at the birth of the Church.
Mary meanwhile … is a simple holy girl who is NOT holding high office in the Temple nor
in a place that is noted as holy before the Annunciation.
But she outranks Gabriel due to the office she is being given. The Lord would later submit himself to obedience to her … so what would Gabriel do? Respect her. A lot. To her initial confusion from the look of it.
Gabriel’s news to Mary … is like NOTHING before or since. The prophets knew a Messiah was coming … but THIS way?! Going with Gabriel’s reaction to Zechariah vs. Mary their tones of voice and demeanor must have been quite different.
Zechariah’s was negative though we can’t hear it. Something between a dismissive “get out of town …” or a frustrated anger over his long wait … or as Gabriel seemed to take it, doubting the messenger’s truthfulness.
Mary’s tone of voice seems to have been more of an inquiry for further information on the subject … given her vow of chastity/unmarried state.
To her Gabriel explains the details (which are even more fantastic than the initial news!)
YET … she believes! And agrees. And becomes the first human being in history to
“accept Jesus Christ into her life …”.
She is punished later though. As Simeon prophesied in Luke 2 … (and you yourself a sword shall pierce).
Zechariah was struck dumb for a few months. Mary had to journey pregnant with unborn baby Jesus and be rejected at the inn. And flee to Egypt with soldiers trying to kill her child. And lose him when he was 12. And watch her beloved be hated, tortured, disgraced and murdered before herr eyes.
But Mary’s sufferings were not a punishment for guilt. They were a sharing in her son’s cross. For a handmaid is not greater than her master.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Thanks! I was going to post this question, as this is today’s reading (Zechariah). Thank you again.
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