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davidv
Guest
You can infer all you want. But, this inference doesn’t answer the question
Bruno Schulz:
- Status
Bruno Schulz:
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Leela
Guest
It does relate to the question. Bruno keeps citing Bible versus and making it clear that he believes because of the Bible. But the Bible says that those who believe and are saved are able to heal the sick, drink poison, heal people, etc. If he is unable to do so, then by his own basis for belief he is not saved.
If you can’t do those things, then according to the Bible you are either not baptized or do not believe, or both, and you are not saved, either. But maybe your belief, unlike Bruno’s, comes from somewhere other than the Bible, so the fact that Jesus is quoted in the Bible as saying this is irrelevent to you.
Best,
Leela
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davidv
Guest
Where does the passage you quoted say that all of these gifts were given to all his followers. Jesus is addressing the “11”, his “ordained”, not the multitude.
Your conclusion that the absence of these gift is evidence of unbelief is a fallacy…
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Leela
Guest
It says so right here:
Mark 14:9-18
14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
It sounds pretty clear to me.
Best,
Leela
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**In Acts 28,5 one of the things you mentioned happened. In many other verses this happened too.
If it would be so with everyone who believes, all the world would see, that all is true and believe wouldn’t be necessary.
So – what’s all your talk?
**
If it would be so with everyone who believes, all the world would see, that all is true and believe wouldn’t be necessary.
So – what’s all your talk?
**
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davidv
Guest
See the highlighted part. Jesus is speaking only to the eleven. He is not speaking to the whole church. These gifts are being specifically given to the apostles, His “Magisterium”, predecessors to our bishops and priests.
This is definitively clear to me as it is consistent with Church teaching.
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Leela
Guest
I do understand that it is the 11 he was speaking to:
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. …
Sure, he is speaking to them, but what is this good news and who is he speaking about? We are about to find out:
“16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
That means anyone who believes will be saved, right? Or can only the 11 be saved?
He then goes on to say…
“17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
Am I supposed to think that verse 16 applies to everyone who believes but then the believers in verses 17 and 18 only refers to the believers among the 11?
I guess if you try hard enough you can take the Bible to mean about anything you want. I’ve certainly seen some herculean efforts in this forum before.
Best,
Leela
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geometer
Guest
Leela, I believe you are right. People who believe Jesus are really very rare. Most of the followers say they believe ‘in’ Jesus, but there are not many who simply believe Jesus, and do the works he did.
In His yeshua,
Vincent
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Swan
Guest
Exactly. And even if we could infer that these passages meant the 11, the “predecessor of the Magisterium”, then why can’t the Magesterium do these things? I don’t see a time limit mentioned, or any other “out” - it isn’t ambivelent on its face. And to me, the argument that the true meanings are hidden and somehow take special grace, skill, knowledge, etc., to decifer goes directly against the claim that God, who wanted to communicate with us, is responsible for a text so difficult to understand (seems to defeat the purpose somehow).
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davidv
Guest
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are alive and well. Just because they aren’t feature on Inside Edition doesn’t mean they don’t occur.Exactly. And even if we could infer that these passages meant the 11, the “predecessor of the Magisterium”, then why can’t the Magesterium do these things? I don’t see a time limit mentioned, or any other “out” - it isn’t ambivelent on its face. And to me, the argument that the true meanings are hidden and somehow take special grace, skill, knowledge, etc., to decifer goes directly against the claim that God, who wanted to communicate with us, is responsible for a text so difficult to understand (seems to defeat the purpose somehow).
T
twb1621
Guest
Leela, There are many who have verifiably done these things and they have been canonized saints because of these events. But you should be aware that the Bible also says that these gifts and any gifts of the Holy Spirit will be given as the Holy Spirit deems appropriate. The reason being, there are many parts to the physical Body and just as the physical body has many parts that work together to provide life to the body itself, so to is the Body of Christ, the Church, which He is the Head.
Read the following;
1 CORINTHIANS CH 12;
4 3 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; 5 there are different forms of service but the same Lord; 6 there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. 7 To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit; 10 to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes. 12 4 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. 14 Now the body is not a single part, but many. 15 If a foot should say, “Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. 16 Or if an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I do not need you.” 22 Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, 23 and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, 24 whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. 26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 5 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; 6 second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? "
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**Nonsense-posts of denier who don’t really want to learn, but obviously want to ridicule Catholicism as well as CAF-posters, keep serious readers from joining and stop threads to build themself up.
Silly reps of stubborn pagans, here as in history.
Ecclesiastes (King Salomo) pointed at them in (Ecc 10,13) already 900 years before Christ, when he said:
“The beginning of these fools words is folly, and the end of his talk is utter madness. Yet the fool multiplies words. Man knows not what is to come, for who can tell him what is to come after him? When the fool walks through the street, in his lack of understanding he calls everything foolish.”
Well – 900 years later, Jesus Christ did tell us what’s fact, but again denier mocked about it as they do here. St. Paul and St. Peter lived that too. Peter said in 1Peter 2,15:
For it is the will of God that by doing good you may silence the ignorance of foolish people.
Some however, will remain foolish until they see God!
But until then, they shouldn’t keep disrupting and commiting nuisance to those, who do believe in God.
**
Silly reps of stubborn pagans, here as in history.
Ecclesiastes (King Salomo) pointed at them in (Ecc 10,13) already 900 years before Christ, when he said:
“The beginning of these fools words is folly, and the end of his talk is utter madness. Yet the fool multiplies words. Man knows not what is to come, for who can tell him what is to come after him? When the fool walks through the street, in his lack of understanding he calls everything foolish.”
Well – 900 years later, Jesus Christ did tell us what’s fact, but again denier mocked about it as they do here. St. Paul and St. Peter lived that too. Peter said in 1Peter 2,15:
For it is the will of God that by doing good you may silence the ignorance of foolish people.
Some however, will remain foolish until they see God!
But until then, they shouldn’t keep disrupting and commiting nuisance to those, who do believe in God.
**
B
Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**
which doesn’t only go for the questions in this thread, but for wide fields of spiritual life altogether**
thanks for this great reminder in the bible
which doesn’t only go for the questions in this thread, but for wide fields of spiritual life altogether
**
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mary1173
Guest
So what you are saying is that until you physically see Him you won’t believe in His existence,right? To see Him is not to know Him to love others as you love yourself is to know God and to see Him through the compassion of others.
Mary1173
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MindOverMatter
Guest
The biblical passage being referred to is making a very general statement. Those who follow him will do various things pertaining to faith. That does not mean that each and every one of them will do exactly those things being said. When you read it in the light and context of everything else written in the bible, your straw-man falls apart. Obviously.Exactly. And even if we could infer that these passages meant the 11, the “predecessor of the Magisterium”, then why can’t the Magesterium do these things? I don’t see a time limit mentioned, or any other “out” - it isn’t ambivelent on its face. And to me, the argument that the true meanings are hidden and somehow take special grace, skill, knowledge, etc., to decifer goes directly against the claim that God, who wanted to communicate with us, is responsible for a text so difficult to understand (seems to defeat the purpose somehow).
Your worser then Sola-Scripture promoters.
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**we got a bit away of the actual thread
Why we believe in God
In fact, this thread ought to give answers to those, who find it hard to believe.
I osten said to dabters: Who really wants to believe, will be given believe. That to the very extend, he can understand. It will naturally encrease in time, if one stays on it, and doesn’t push believe away, nor ridicules believe.
As Jesus said in Luke 11,10: For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
This is an unbelievably great offer. Let’s take it!
**
Why we believe in God
In fact, this thread ought to give answers to those, who find it hard to believe.
I osten said to dabters: Who really wants to believe, will be given believe. That to the very extend, he can understand. It will naturally encrease in time, if one stays on it, and doesn’t push believe away, nor ridicules believe.
As Jesus said in Luke 11,10: For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
This is an unbelievably great offer. Let’s take it!
**
B
Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**Teaching God to Children.
With my sons I had found a way and told it some weeks ago some Kindergarten-nurses, who did alike:
We found very helpful to speak something like this to Children:
Look Child – now we spoke to God!
Child asks: How that?
Well, because we spoke about God!
Child asks something like: What did we speak about God?
We just said; how beautiful it it here around us.
Child asks: How was that talking about God…
Because God made all this
because God let’s us see all this
because God gave us all this
and – because God is here with us NOW!
Child asks: Where?
Look Child: Jesus promised to us;
When two or more speak about me, I’m amidst them!
Now we speak about God – now God is here.
And He loves you, and mom and dad love you
For you are very important to God and to all!
And you and all of us thank God, that He is always with us, and that we never are alone.
**
With my sons I had found a way and told it some weeks ago some Kindergarten-nurses, who did alike:
We found very helpful to speak something like this to Children:
Look Child – now we spoke to God!
Child asks: How that?
Well, because we spoke about God!
Child asks something like: What did we speak about God?
We just said; how beautiful it it here around us.
Child asks: How was that talking about God…
Because God made all this
because God let’s us see all this
because God gave us all this
and – because God is here with us NOW!
Child asks: Where?
Look Child: Jesus promised to us;
When two or more speak about me, I’m amidst them!
Now we speak about God – now God is here.
And He loves you, and mom and dad love you
For you are very important to God and to all!
And you and all of us thank God, that He is always with us, and that we never are alone.
**
B
Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**
Condition is: To actually WANTING to believe! We can’t expect to get believe presented if we doubt. The present would be far to big to be awarded for nothing. Many Saints where nonbelievers before they finally – some of them all of a sudden – found themselves amidst strongest believe and knowledge.
To some this is a hard way fraught with obstacles like listening to silly talks of others, rather than to the word of Jesus Christ – of God.
Those who live in God know: Believe often is a challenge; especially to those who get anew to believe.
Believe though, is not simply “to believe something”, but it’s nearness to God, which is only allowed to those, who “after all” want to believe – just in spite of all those challenges like sticking to worldly reason, that wants prove of everything before believe is possible – which is narrow minded.
A blind cave fish would never believe there is a sun. He’d laugh if we believe there is a sun and he too lives of that sun. He’d think we are stupid telling such nonsense. Atheists do alike.
Believe in God can’t be proved; but poof is given to those who really believe. If you give up because you didn’t find proof at once, then you aren’t worthy to get the grace to believe – the present of believe. And it would be unjust to those, who struggled half their life to get believe.
In fact – your conscience tells you IT IS TRUE: 1Tim 1,19: Some, by rejecting conscience, have made a shipwreck of their faith!
**
Many say/feel so. Jesus Christ said: Who really wants to believe, will be given the grace to understand, comprehend; eventually know as fact, all Jesus Christ revealed for us about God and all being.
Condition is: To actually WANTING to believe! We can’t expect to get believe presented if we doubt. The present would be far to big to be awarded for nothing. Many Saints where nonbelievers before they finally – some of them all of a sudden – found themselves amidst strongest believe and knowledge.
To some this is a hard way fraught with obstacles like listening to silly talks of others, rather than to the word of Jesus Christ – of God.
Those who live in God know: Believe often is a challenge; especially to those who get anew to believe.
Believe though, is not simply “to believe something”, but it’s nearness to God, which is only allowed to those, who “after all” want to believe – just in spite of all those challenges like sticking to worldly reason, that wants prove of everything before believe is possible – which is narrow minded.
A blind cave fish would never believe there is a sun. He’d laugh if we believe there is a sun and he too lives of that sun. He’d think we are stupid telling such nonsense. Atheists do alike.
Believe in God can’t be proved; but poof is given to those who really believe. If you give up because you didn’t find proof at once, then you aren’t worthy to get the grace to believe – the present of believe. And it would be unjust to those, who struggled half their life to get believe.
In fact – your conscience tells you IT IS TRUE: 1Tim 1,19: Some, by rejecting conscience, have made a shipwreck of their faith!
**
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Leela
Guest
Bruno,
Can you summarize the reasons “why we believe” that have come out of this thread so far?
Near as I can tell they are only these:
(1) it feels really good when we pray
(2) there is a lot of historical evidence
Did I miss anything?
Best,
Leela
G
geometer
Guest
You forgot revelation. I asked a question, and my question was answered…
- Status