Why were the Middle Ages so...bad?

[Scott_Waddell]

MikeinSD:

Many folks like the society of the Middle Ages because of the idea of a society based on birth and bloodlines. The idea that the great great grandson of a warrior chief who seized some territory is of “better birth” than the great great grandson of a tenant farmer remains attractive. Monopoly of money and property based on family membership must be great if you are in the right family. Guess it’s easier to pick the right parents than actually have to compete against the “lesser” folks in the market place. Ideas of noble blood die hard. Here in the US, we have no royalty. My white trash and Irish ancestors moved here to get away from the political monopoly of the royal families. I’m glad they did.

The Middle Ages are dead. Royalty is dying. Good.

Actually, the bloodline aspect of feudalism is a later Middle-Ages development. The earlier was like glorified gang warfare–if you could fight, it didn’t really matter where you came from.

 

[rwoehmke]

Montie Claunch:

I would like to address this from the other vantage point.
There is still a poverty problem in the world. In Africa, China, Russia and even in the U.S. were we are way more advanced than they were back even 70 years ago (when some people were still useing horse and carage). So the Poverty problem hasn’t gone away nor did it start with the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. The Romans and the Barbarians the sucseeded them had a sizable impoversed population. Poverty is something that has been a carrydown through the centuries.

I have finished reading How the Catholic Church Built Weastern Civilization and I found it very illuminating to a subject I have not much knowladge of. The “Dark Ages” wern’t all that dark. With great Mathameticans and Ecomist, and Scientits as well as lawyers (the goodness of which can be debated at a later thread). The Dark ages wern’t as dark as one might presuppose.

Montie has got it pretty well down. If one thinks that the middle ages were somehow the worst of times, I would suggest that visits to places like rural Afganistan, China, Russia, Africa, villages in the near and middle East, or any of the African outbacks. Even many rural people in our own country in the the 20’s and 30’s of the 20th Century did not have it much better. The majority of the people in our world live little better than they did 1000 years ago sometimes even worse. People from the West just don’t get it. The book Montie mentions is very good and has extensive citations from other than “Catholic” scholars.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

FuzzyBunny116:

The corruption within the Church, the general poverty of the residence and lack of power, and it seems with the advent of the Renaissance, things started getting better as religious fervor seemed to die down.

I would trade those problems for our own in a heartbeat.

 

[JSmitty2005]

As others have noted, the Middle or Dark Ages weren’t all that bad. I’d also suggest the books that VociMike recommended as well as “Triumph: The Power and Glory of the Catholic Church.” Also, anything by Hilaire Belloc is great!

 

[FCEGM]

Fidelis:

The Middle Ages are thought by us to be hopelessly backwards because it’s been pounded into our conscience by school, the media, and centuries of anti-Catholic propaganda. Also it’s extremely easy (and pompous) to pass judgement on those who lived in a different time and place by criteria they couldn’t possibly know.

The cure is to educate yourself in this area. Start with these articles and go from there:

Those Terrible Middle Ages! Debunking the Myths - a book review
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0041.html

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0101.html

I’m in the midst of reading this last book; very informative!

 

[StCsDavid]

FuzzyBunny116:

If the Church was so powerful during those days, and the lay so (theoretically) so devout [and perhaps I just answered my own question] why are they so backwards? Why were times so bad, with so many (I assume) in prayer? Probably a higher percent than are now!

I suppose I would want you to give a date range of when things were so bad. I just briefly skimmed the responses, but I didn’t see anyone mention the incredible impact of the “black death” (aka, plague) which devestated Europe and had to have had an enormous impact on the culture.

 

[brotherhrolf]

MikeinSD:

Many folks like the society of the Middle Ages because of the idea of a society based on birth and bloodlines. The idea that the great great grandson of a warrior chief who seized some territory is of “better birth” than the great great grandson of a tenant farmer remains attractive. Monopoly of money and property based on family membership must be great if you are in the right family. Guess it’s easier to pick the right parents than actually have to compete against the “lesser” folks in the market place. Ideas of noble blood die hard. Here in the US, we have no royalty. My white trash and Irish ancestors moved here to get away from the political monopoly of the royal families. I’m glad they did.

The Middle Ages are dead. Royalty is dying. Good.

Mike, that wasn’t the case in Ireland until after the Norman English bishops had their way and “reformed” the Irish church. The same thing could be said about Anglo-Saxon England before the Conquest. The Normans did a lot of good but they also did a lot of evil.

 

[MikeinSD]

Scott Waddell:

Actually, the bloodline aspect of feudalism is a later Middle-Ages development. The earlier was like glorified gang warfare–if you could fight, it didn’t really matter where you came from.

Sounds lovely. Also the 500-800 CE was a time when men were men, women kept their mouths shut and minorities, religious, racial, or otherwise stayed out of the way of the majority.

I suspect many would return to the Middle Ages just to enjoy that kind of society again.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Exactly which years are we talking about?

What invasions took place during that period? Mongols? Swedes?

What was the ambient temperature condition/climate at that time? Little Ice Age?

Any famines or pestilences?

What wars were going on?

What was the situation regarding trade with China and the East?

What were the Muslims doing at that time? In Spain, around the Eastern Mediterranean?

There was a lot going on; we need to kind of narrow down our focus and consider all the various activities.

Any interesting saints of the period?

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

JSmitty2005:

As others have noted, the Middle or Dark Ages weren’t all that bad. I’d also suggest the books that VociMike recommended as well as “Triumph: The Power and Glory of the Catholic Church.” Also, anything by Hilaire Belloc is great!

Yes, I picked up Triumph, but I’m not sure I’ll continue reading it. I find it quite biased toward the Church, due to its CONSTANT bashing of the East.

 

[Rebecca_New]

FuzzyBunny116:

If the Church was so powerful during those days, and the lay so (theoretically) so devout [and perhaps I just answered my own question] why are they so backwards? Why were times so bad, with so many (I assume) in prayer? Probably a higher percent than are now!

Also 1/3 of the year was spent celebrating feast days and having feasts to celebrate. Everything was homemade-bread, cakes, cookies (sorry, I’m fasting)

 

[Mike_D30]

Well when your life expectancy is like 34, life is going to stink. Theocracies don’t work, and feudal systems that oppress the poor will make for bad times. Add to that plagues, disease, illiteracy, constant non stop war, and yeah it was bad. I don’t know how much the Church gets credit for all that though.

 

[Rebecca_New]

MikeinSD:

Sounds lovely. Also the 500-800 CE was a time when men were men, women kept their mouths shut and minorities, religious, racial, or otherwise stayed out of the way of the majority.

I suspect many would return to the Middle Ages just to enjoy that kind of society again.

Maybe the women kept their mouths shut because the men were men and did all the things they should do without having to be reminded all the time.

 

[MikeinSD]

Maybe the women kept their mouths shut because the men were men and did all the things they should do without having to be reminded all the time.

I hope they did. And the men had multiple reminders from multiple wives. The ladies had unfortunate habit of dying in childbirth. That’s why men outlived women in the “good old medieval days.”

 

[m134e5]

FuzzyBunny116:

If the Church was so powerful during those days, and the lay so (theoretically) so devout [and perhaps I just answered my own question] why are they so backwards? Why were times so bad, with so many (I assume) in prayer? Probably a higher percent than are now!

History is biased. Yes, there were problems in the middle ages. Some of them still exist today, some have been solved- and we have ones that weren’t problems then. There were also a good number of saints to come out of the middle ages.

 

[Contarini]

kryogenix:

I want to clarify something. Is it true that the Church taught that bathing was bad during the Middle Ages?

No, not as far as I know of–not in general that is.

But for monks, frequent bathing was seen as somewhat decadent. Not only did it indicate an unseemly care for how one’s body appears to others, but (to be frank about it) it was seen as an opportunity for sexual temptation.

Edwin