Why weren't/aren't laity allowed passed the altar rail?

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rben20 said:
This comes from the Jewish tradition of the Holy of Holies. Women were seen as unclean if I am not mistaken unless they were churched and even then it was left to men. Still even in the OF the Priest who can only be male is allowed to handle the species primarily. I have seen women put the hosts away in the tabernacle though in the OF. Women aren’t singled out in the EF. The EF just follows the tradition of the church much more. St. Paul does talk about how women should not speak at church. It is simply tradition of the apostles. Lately, we have been changing though…at least we didn’t allow women priests.
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But women are seen as so unclean, they can’t even clean the sanctuary?
 
TrueLight said:
But women are seen as so unclean, they can’t even clean the sanctuary?
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I say if men don’t want women to even serve in the sanctuary, they can darn well clean it themselves. And iron the linens too.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
Lay men were and are allowed past the altar rail in the Tridentine Mass. Altar servers are laity and they serve within the sanctuary. I believe it was women in particular who were not permitted in the sanctuary. That idea may have survived in some places post-Vatican II. I remember as a child that our parish church was cleaned by ladies but a man cleaned the sanctuary.
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An exception was made for Nuptial Masses. And First Communions, I believe.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
Lay men were and are allowed past the altar rail in the Tridentine Mass. Altar servers are laity and they serve within the sanctuary. I believe it was women in particular who were not permitted in the sanctuary. That idea may have survived in some places post-Vatican II. I remember as a child that our parish church was cleaned by ladies but a man cleaned the sanctuary.
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A friend of my grandparents once told me that a nun told him that he wasn’t allowed being on the altar once he got married.
 
That’s fine if men want to clean the sanctuary.

However, no one is going to convince me that women are unclean.
 
ajpirc said:
Because Jesus told us to eat His flesh. It’s pretty hard to eat His flesh without having it touch our mouths. Unless you know how to eat something without it touching your mouth?
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So one part of our body is worthy, but another isn’t? It just doesn’t make sense. Its like you’re telling me that one part of our bodies can sin and keep the other parts sinless. So I guess my armpits will be in heaven for sure because I can’t think of anything my armpits have done to sin.🤷
 
rben20 said:
This comes from the Jewish tradition of the Holy of Holies. Women were seen as unclean if I am not mistaken unless they were churched and even then it was left to men. Still even in the OF the Priest who can only be male is allowed to handle the species primarily. I have seen women put the hosts away in the tabernacle though in the OF. Women aren’t singled out in the EF. The EF just follows the tradition of the church much more. St. Paul does talk about how women should not speak at church. It is simply tradition of the apostles. Lately, we have been changing though…at least we didn’t allow women priests.
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That is why the curtain in the temple was torn when Jesus died on the cross. Such exclusivity in accessing God was removed by Christ. When He became man, God lived amongst men. The whole point of the Eucharist is for us to become one with God and be like God.
 
That is why the curtain in the temple was torn when Jesus died on the cross. Such exclusivity in accessing God was removed by Christ. When He became man, God lived amongst men. The whole point of the Eucharist is for us to become one with God and be like God.
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And it took the Church almost 2000 years to realize this?
 
ProVobis said:
And it took the Church almost 2000 years to realize this?
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Were there altar rails in the private homes and catacombs where the early Liturgies were celebrated? Besides, I’m not arguing against the altar rails or its Byzantine equivalent, the Iconostasis. I’m arguing the reason people here are giving for it.
 
ConstantineTG said:
That is why the curtain in the temple was torn when Jesus died on the cross. Such exclusivity in accessing God was removed by Christ. When He became man, God lived amongst men. The whole point of the Eucharist is for us to become one with God and be like God.
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So what you’re saying is that because Christ gave everbody access to God, then we should treat the Eucharist less reverently?
 
ajpirc said:
So what you’re saying is that because Christ gave everbody access to God, then we should treat the Eucharist less reverently?
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No, what he is saying is that women, or non-priests, are not separated from the Eucharist in the same way Jews understood themselves to be separated from the Holy of Holies.
 
ProVobis said:
An exception was made for Nuptial Masses. And First Communions, I believe.
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I can understand why there would be an exception for Nuptial Mass. I do not understand why there would need to be an exception made for children receiving first Communion. Why would they need to enter the sanctuary?
 
No, what he is saying is that women, or non-priests, are not separated from the Eucharist in the same way Jews understood themselves to be separated from the Holy of Holies.
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But you’re undermining the role of the priest, who I understand still follows the order of Melchisedech. Why need priests when laypeople can routinely “enter” the “Holy of Holies” with the turn of a key?
 
ajpirc said:
A friend of my grandparents once told me that a nun told him that he wasn’t allowed being on the altar once he got married.
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The gentleman who cleaned the sanctuary in our parish church was married. He was a grandfather; I was an acquaintance of his grandchildren. This was, however, post-Vatican II so I don’t know what the rule was before Vatican II. I would have thought some married men would have been servers or MCs in the Tridentine Rite.
 
Matthew_Holford said:
I would have thought some married men would have been servers or MCs in the Tridentine Rite.
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I don’t think they were. This was probably because the married man is “one flesh” with his wife. I think because his soul and the woman’s soul were one; therefore, if the soul of the married man entered the sanctuary, so to did his wife’s. Just a thesis.
 
ProVobis said:
But you’re undermining the role of the priest, who I understand still follows the order of Melchisedech. Why need priests when laypeople can routinely “enter” the “Holy of Holies” with the turn of a key?
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I think what is being said here is that Christ allowed everybody to enter the Holy of Holies when He died so now everybody can have access to the tabernacle whenever they want without the priest.
 
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