Why? Why must God exist? Honest, even handed questions

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Okay, I’ve been here for a while and have been wanting to ask some even handed questions to hopefully get some realistic and even handed answers. As my profile states, I am an atheist. I hold no belief in any higher power. I was a Roman Catholic for the first decade of my life, but I began questioning things about 7-8 years old and fully made my switch to atheism at 11. I just turned 40 in January. I am open-minded towards spirituality and faith, but believe that organized religion has been a very destructive force on this planet for a long time and may one day be the human race’s undoing.
Since you had so much to write, you left little room to respond statement by statement (as there is a 6,000 word limit to these things)! So, my responses will be short. In order to answer your dilemma (above), you should read Vox Day’s book entitled, The Irrational Atheist. It’s short, too.
  • God is omnipotent, omniscient, all loving, and all good. Why did he allow Lucifer to rebel and thus set in motion the creation of Hell?
He did not allow Lucifer to to rebel. He merely gave Lucifer Freedom. “Freedom” comes with certain, shall we say, potential pitfalls. One being that such a free entity can choose not to “see” God’s Face, and to be satisfied in his own being, which, as an angel was pretty good.
Similarly, why did he allow original sin?
He didn’t allow OS; rather, He allowed Freedom.
If he knew what the outcome would be and is all good, why would he let his children suffer?
Honest answer: that’s a tough one. But, one thing’s for sure, God has a purpose.
  • Why does he allow bad things (even death) to happen to good people?
Why is death a “bad” thing? Of course, if we absolutely know - beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt - that a particular person is only going to Hell, I suppose it would be. 😦
Why does he take babies, children, and other people long before their time?
Lots of surmises would be required of this multi-question. Again, I will say that there is one thing for sure, God has His purposes.
Why would he make those people’s loved ones suffer so?
This is as tough to try to answer as your above question. But, it must be answered the same way.
  • I don’t have links to proof, but it’s long been pointed out that Jesus is nothing more than a literary/astrological hybrid, and that many of the Christian doctrines were adapted from Jewish ones, which were all but lifted from ancient Egyptian belief systems. Where’s any proof that he was real? Of all the time humans have been on this planet, why did God specifically choose roughly 2000 years ago to send Jesus to earth? Why doesn’t he just send us proof now of his existence and put this all to bed once and for all?
If I were God, I could probably answer these questions easily. But, any answers I give would be little more than conjectures. To those who recognize His answers to such questions, He has sent proof. To others, not yet.
  • There are over 2 billion earth-like planets in the Milky Way galaxy alone. For us to think that we’re the only life in the entire universe is not only extremely arrogant,
On the contrary. It is arrogant to propose as fact that we’re not alone. All we can do is conjecture, or postulate.
it’s downright scary. Why does the church teach that we’re so special, so unique, when it’s nearly statistically impossible that we’re alone in all of the cosmos (and that’s not even counting if there are multiverses).
Because “nearly statistically impossible” is conjecture - not proof, as science would have it.
  • Why must God exist at all?
Because things that begin do not cause their own beginnings. Moreover, in the absence of any other thing, a thing cannot cause its own beginning. We therefore, reason our way to that which is uncaused (God exists through himself) causing, or creating, all else.
I’m an atheist, yet I’m as good of a person now than if I were a devout Catholic, Christian, or other religion.
Hmmm. Are we sure?
Do we really need this antiquated, threatening edict of Hell for eternity if we don’t behave or believe?
No. All we need is the joyful love of God and our neighbor.
I mean, the universe is so magnificent in its wonder that I’ve got to think that if there were a supreme being or whatever out there, they wouldn’t care about what we’re doing here on this miserable planet.
So, what “out there” is greater than the human mind?
  • Why is it those that claim to be more devout and committed to their religions are usually the ones doing the most harm to their fellow humans? Priests sexually abusing kids,
First of all, have you bothered to take a good look at the real statistics? They’re quite plain on the internet. Without doubt, they show that the safest place a kid could be is in a Catholic School! It is “out there” where the plethora of dangers lie.
religious leaders bilking the flock out of money and doing other unsavory deeds, etc.
Religious leaders are human beings, too. They can be bought by Satan as easily as any man. Fortunately, this sort of thing seems to be much less common in the Catholic Churches.
  • Same-sex relationships appear in almost all, if not all species on earth.
What? Are you sure you want to assert that?
Why is it that some humans are the only ones who abhor it?
Some humans abhor it. Most (good) Catholics do not abhor it. Most (good) Catholics decry the sin in precisely the same way they decry the sins of illicit satisfactions of concupiscence. Since such satisfactions are not productive of new life, they are in and of themselves selfish.

continued . . .
 
continuation . . .
I know it supposedly goes against God, but then again, if the big guy knows everything, why would he make people that way.
God doesn’t make people like that. He gives them freedom. People sometimes make imperfect choices.
And don’t tell me that there aren’t some gay people out there aren’t really gay.
Why would anyone knowingly craft a logical contradiction?
It’s something in their DNA, it’s not a life choice.
Well, that’s the propaganda. So far, science had supposedly found a gene for alcoholics and one for smokers, for all of these years of study and research, there’s no gene that pre-disposes someone to a gay lifestyle. I am not condemning it, I’m telling you it’s not my choice. You know, choices do not have to be made instantly. Choices are often made over a loge time. How many children have you known that knew exactly what they wanted to do when they grew up?
Why do so few live in unprecedented wealth and splendor, while so many suffer and struggle just to make ends meet? Didn’t Jesus preach that rich people won’t get into Heaven?
This is a really tough question. One that has several of its own threads in this forum. There are so many convolutions to these questions that you might want to look at them.
Why do religious types feel the need to be in other people’s business? In particular I’m talking about laws attempting to be passed that will clearly violate rights of one person so that someone else, who happens to be a believer, can feel they did the right thing.
Got an example?
  • Why does God allow babies to be born with birth defects or other problems? They couldn’t have possibly done anything to warrant it.
Same answer as from above.
  • Why is it that the God depicted in the Bible is angry, vengeful, jealous, spiteful and a whole host of other things that are clearly not the qualities that an all-good God should have?
Unless you’re one of the ones trying to kill His people. Much of that must be understood as allegory. But, just as much must be seen as warnings.
  • What if you’re wrong? According to the Bible, only 144,000 people are going to make it into Heaven.
That’s from St. John’s visions enunciated in Revelation. The 144,000 is not to be taken as a literal number. It is to represent the whole people of God. This is to be taken as the army of the Lamb, a parody on the violence of the Roman army. Opposed to that violence, the army of the Lamb fights with weapons of love and conquers by giving witness to the Lamb.
What if God isn’t Christian,
God does not belong to a religion, He merely started one!
Simply bowing down and worshiping a God, any God, for the simple reason of covering your backside isn’t a compelling enough reason to me.
Worshiping God is not supposed to be a negative. It’s supposed to be a positive! Why can it not be a positive?
This isn’t the Dark Ages anymore. We know what diseases are. We understand the natural phenomena that happens in our daily life and don’t need to attribute them to a thing we can’t see, taste, touch, smell, or whatever.
Yet.
Okay, sinuses are starting to hurt, time to go take some medicine. That’s all I have for now. Again, while I’m asking questions, I’m not here to incite. I truly am looking for legitimate answers that might possibly lead me to a better understanding. I mean, don’t get me wrong. If someone could prove to me that God exists, I’d be the happiest person on the planet. I would relish the days I had left until I was reunited with those loved ones lost in Heaven for eternity. But I just don’t see it happening. I’ve never even had good luck, let alone seen an actual miracle.
Well, we welcome you. So, stick around and see what happens. But, be open. You never know!
Thanks in advance.
You’re welcome in arrears. :o

God bless,
jd
 
Of course they can be explained, but the hearer must have an open mind.

I knew by reading your first post that you would never change your mind and you haven’t.

You listed the standard list of atheist arguments all of which have had their own explanatory threads on this forum. But you want to go back to square one and get lots of attention from people.

Your philosophy is a condemnation to misery. You can change it today, but I know you won’t.
Wow, thanks for the brotherly love. WWJD indeed.

Listen, I’m not discounting what you’re saying. But there are definitely better ways to do it. Not exactly the way to make friends and influence people.

I’ve been an atheist for three decades, did you seriously think that I (or anyone for that matter) could be swayed so quickly? Regardless of my lack of belief, I always keep an open ind with regards to other people’s feelings. I respect the fact that you believe even though I do not. I wouldn’t belittle you. You don’t know me, you don’t know what I’ve been through. Even at such a young age, I didn’t come to my atheism lightly.

I’m lost and trying to find my way. Regardless of the outcome of my belief/lack of struggle, it will be a trial by fire either way.

Still, thanks for your response. I appreciate that you took the time to say something.
 
I have to go get my boys from school, but know that I’ve read everything am very thankful for the responses. I will properly respond in kind soon. Thank you for your kindness. 🙂
 
That being said, much of your rationale can be boiled down to “because someone said God said so,” or “because that’s what we’ve been conditioned to believe.” While the Magis Reason Faith videos provide somewhat of a more scientific slant, with little more than a few minutes of work I could debunk everything that Father proffers.
Boss:

Now you’re talking! Let’s start with one of them and debunk it.
And while you speak of God allowing a child to be born without a brain as a way to show his family a new type or way of love, I have to say that if it isn’t strictly a genetic thing or an anomaly, how can one love a God who would allow that to happen? How can they reconcile that in their heads and hearts?
If you were God, knowing what’s in store for humans after death, how important would this life be, do you think?

God bless,
jd
 
Okay, a lot to respond to here. I’m going to try and keep some semblance of order by going as chronologically as I can.

Rosatus - Again I am just floored by the maturity and candor with which you handle yourself. I don’t know what your life plans are, but I see nothing but great things in your future. Although separated by over two decades, you and I are not so different. I,too, have had my own burdens to bear, and it has definitely led me down some paths that fly in the face of what God and Jesus stand for. No, I never abused substances or got into legal trouble, but I severely disliked, one could even say hated him from a young age.

My parents were divorced when I was very young (under 3) and things were difficult between my mom and dad. Dad was always working (he’s a retired sheriff) and mom was there, but seemed like emotionally vacant. We spent a lot of time at my paternal grandmother’s house, practically every weekend while my mom either worked or whatever. Grandma was a very religious woman (Protestant) and wasted no time dragging us along to church and Sunday school. Even at the young age of 7-8, I immediately began to question the teachings we were given each Sunday.

Then, on Easter Sunday when I was 11, as we were getting back into the car from church services, my mother told me that she passed away. I immediately denounced God, knowing that no good, all-powerful being could allow this woman who meant so much to me, die. She was only 52 (Type II Diabetes complications - heart attack) and I needed her more than anyone else in my life at the time. From that point on, I went to services only when forced to, all the while being a closeted atheist, for fear of what my family might say. Not that any of my immediate family is religious, I just didn’t want to open that can-o-worms.

After HS I joined the US Army and was deployed to the Persian Gulf. I came back a changed man, incensed over the real reason for our involvement in Desert Storm and the fact that we didn’t finish the job—thus necessitating a whole new generation of young servicemembers and their families to the horrors of war.

My oldest son was born a few years after my discharge, and within a few months we realized something wasn’t right. Long story short, he as Asberger’s, and will likely need some sort of assistance for the rest of his life. Divine payback for my atheism? Who knows. Side-effect of my time in the Gulf? Quite possibly. But according to the VA, I’m fine. Nothing wrong with me. The nightmares don’t mean anything…

Along the way, I’d been conditioned by my mom (either openly or subconsciously) to think that my dad was the bad guy. Come to find out, years later, that she was the one who left him and had been unfaithful. Now, my dad didn’t do himself any favors by never being around or treating me less than hospitably the little bit that he did see me, but he definitely didn’t deserve the vitriol I’d spewed his way for so long.

To top it all off, my younger brother (he was 26) passed away on 11/27/11 due to a respiratory illness that none of us knew he had. That’s pretty much been the straw that broke the camel’s back as far as asking how God could allow such things to happen.

At the same time, though I’m still filled with questions. Questions that don’t feel like they’re answered by things of the natural world. It’s a scratch I can’t itch, a fragment buried deep in my psyche that I just can’t get to. A lock that cannot be picked, yet has no key.

I’m muddling along as best I can on this path that I’ve chosen (and chosen for me in some instances). I don’t know where it’s going to lead me. I just want to find some solace, happiness and true peace for the first time in my life.
 
  • I don’t have links to proof, but it’s long been pointed out that Jesus is nothing more than a literary/astrological hybrid, and that many of the Christian doctrines were adapted from Jewish ones, which were all but lifted from ancient Egyptian belief systems. Where’s any proof that he was real? Of all the time humans have been on this planet, why did God specifically choose roughly 2000 years ago to send Jesus to earth? Why doesn’t he just send us proof now of his existence and put this all to bed once and for all?
What proof do you need to convince you? Is not the Lanciano Eucharistic miracle proof enough? therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
[Histological, immunological and biochemiccal studies on the flesh and blood of the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano (8th century)].
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4950729

The problem with too much proof is that the more proof, the less faith needed and the more it becomes business - you give to get. So the least amount of proof with the greatest faith is what is best for us. We get back what we give at the end of our lives. If everything was revealed now, we would suffer the most judgment. For example, God judges us more harshly now that Christ has come than he judged those before the time of Christ.
 
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I’m not familiar with anything that organized atheism has committed. Are there bad apples in every bunch? Of course. That being said, the daily affronts that organized religion brings to humanity and logic far outweigh what atheists have wrought.
Do you consider Stalin or Kim Jong II or present day China (one child rule with forced abortions to others) to be organized atheism? What about communism?
 
I suppose I’ll never get what I’m searching for, because I figure the answers I’m seeking can’t be comprehended or explained by a human mind, and if there is a God, he’s not talking to me. Believe me, it’d be so much easier to be able to believe. I’m tormented by my atheism. But I just can’t reconcile in my head and heart that there’s a God out there who would allow the things I’ve talked about to happen. At this stage, to me, religion is nothing more than the perfect con job. The ultimate form of control. Whip people into shape with fear of fire and brimstone or the promise of forever awesomeness, but once they’ve slaved away all their lives and gone hoping to end up in heaven—they can’t come back to be mad because they’re dead and there’s nothing left but eternal darkness.
This is a Catholic board, not a “religious” board so let’s limit the discussion to Catholicism.

If God doesn’t exist, then religion is stupid as you point out. ** 1 Corinthians 15:19 “If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.” ** It starts with the founder, Jesus Christ. If he wasn’t God, his life was utterly stupid as he did not get married, had not children, suffered pain, died early, and was not rich or famous for scientific inventions.

So the question really hinges on whether we live to 70 to 80 or whether we live forever.
 
Wow, thanks for the brotherly love. WWJD indeed.

Listen, I’m not discounting what you’re saying. But there are definitely better ways to do it. Not exactly the way to make friends and influence people.

I’ve been an atheist for three decades, did you seriously think that I (or anyone for that matter) could be swayed so quickly? Regardless of my lack of belief, I always keep an open ind with regards to other people’s feelings. I respect the fact that you believe even though I do not. I wouldn’t belittle you. You don’t know me, you don’t know what I’ve been through. Even at such a young age, I didn’t come to my atheism lightly.

I’m lost and trying to find my way. Regardless of the outcome of my belief/lack of struggle, it will be a trial by fire either way.

Still, thanks for your response. I appreciate that you took the time to say something.
Welcome to the forum Boss, I’m very sorry those whom you love have passed. I thank you for your sacrifice in service, even though we both probably agree on the … “politics” on these wars.

I’d love to go through your list and give an answer to all but in my style of discussion, I rather focus on one single issue. And not just any issue, but the biggest issue. So, which of these issues you have the most problem with? What is the biggest reason why you reject God? If it is about those who have passed away, I cannot help in discussion (my field of interests is philosophy, theology and history) but I will certainly pray for them. But if it is a philosophical issue, I’m all ears.
 
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  1. Real Chrisitanity isn’t superstitious and isn’t etiological in the sense that pagan religions are. Take the creation story, for example. Based on scientific evidence, we well know that the universe is around 13.7 (I believe) billion years old, and most likely did not come into its present form in 6 days, as the Bible says. But this is because scientific truth is different from theological truth. In science, we tend to search for the observable truths. But in theology, we search for the Truth about Who God Is. The Bible isn’t concerned, therefore, with scientific accuracy, but with theological accuracy. Scientific knowledge and theological knowledge are not exclusive, but they complement each other. I must point out that there will be more than 144,00 entering heaven. As I’ve said, I’m no theological expert, and I don’t (and never will) know everything there is to know about God. But I’m sure if you do a quick search on the website, you’ll find information concerning the truth about that passage in Scripture. Based on theological truths, we can know that God is the God that Jesus preached (indeed, Jesus Himself was God the Son on earth). Now, what I’m about to say, I don’t want to be taken as a “scape-goat” solution to finding the Truth about God: perhaps the most important thing to properly have a relationship with God and come to know Him, is what is called the virtue of faith. newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm This properly explains what faith is, better than someone of my limited understanding could ever explain. If you read this, you will learn that faith, on the contrary, is quite reasonable and necessary. Everyone has faith in something. But what do you have faith in? (this question is rhetorical)
I will pray for you, that God will increase your faith, and grant you the graces of knowledge and understanding. Trust me, I once had disbelief in God, too. I always questioned “If God were real, why would He let this happen to me?” in regards to hardships, etc. But things changed when I decided to turn to Him, and admittedly, He was my last hope in my struggles. I know He loves Me and that He Is who He says He Is because of the intesne Love and Mercy I experienced during my convesion, which was something clearly supernatural, and I would not lie to you. I am confident that if you are sincere in wanting to know God, He will reveal Himself to you. I would be so happy for you if He does, because God is so much Love and Mercy, it’s literally overwhelming, and the Joy He gives you is unlike anything which can be sought here on this earth. Remember, if you want to find out who God Is, you don’t have to look any further than the Catholic Church which He established. This is crucial. While there are some good things about other Christian denominations, the truth is that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Apostolic Church that Jesus Himself established (something else that I wouldn’t have believed in a year ago). Only in the Catholic Church will you find the full and true Revelation of God, Who Is Jesus Christ Himself. God bless you, and let me know if you have any other questions. I’m no expert, but I hope I was able to help you. 🙂
Although we do not share the same religion, I feel compelled to praise your wonderful remarks in response to the questions of the OP, especially considering your age. You claim several times not to be an expert on Christianity, but I find your knowledgeable comments and heartfelt advice some of the most beneficial I’ve read in a long time, and it would behoove the OP to reflect carefully upon them. All the best in your Catholic studies.
 
I’ve brought up this point many times on these forums,
and to this day no atheist has answered it,
not Perplexity, not BORZ, not Belorg, not ThinkingSapeins, nobody. :mad:

Here’s the point…

It is impossible that the universe, ( in whatever form you wish to think of it )
has existed through an infinite past. There cannot be an infinite past, only a finite past.
Therefore, the universe had a beginning.
Therefore, there had to be a God to start it.

Anybody want to refute that?
🍿
 
Okay, a lot to respond to here. I’m going to try and keep some semblance of order by going as chronologically as I can.

Rosatus - Again I am just floored by the maturity and candor with which you handle yourself. I don’t know what your life plans are, but I see nothing but great things in your future. Although separated by over two decades, you and I are not so different. I,too, have had my own burdens to bear, and it has definitely led me down some paths that fly in the face of what God and Jesus stand for. No, I never abused substances or got into legal trouble, but I severely disliked, one could even say hated him from a young age.

.
Boss10L, thank you for your kind words. 🙂

First of all, I want you to know that I sympathize with you in all of your struggles. That’s a lot to handle, and certainly enough to make anyone question the love of God. I want to let you know that I continue to pray for you.

The beauty of the Cross is in its weight, it is in the pain it causes. Indeed, God has given you some very large and difficult crosses to carry. But there is one consoling fact, that God never gives us a cross that we can’t handle. He will be there to help us in all of them, if we turn to Him with a sincere and contrite heart. Contrition not only for our sins, whereby we have sought to thwart the action of Divine Love, but the sins of others, considering what suffering it has caused the world, since the world is so persistent in stumbling, in veering off the Way. I would not be able to speculate one bit as to why He has sent these particular crosses to you, for only He knows. It may not be the kind of punishment you are thinking of. Even when God chastises, He does so as any loving parent would. Now, I know, a parent’s punishment can usually only go so far, and it would possibly seem that God is being harsh. But we must always remember that God is infinite Love. Therefore, when He is offended, He is infinitely offended, since even the smallest sin appears as the darkest blemish on our souls in His Divine Light. May He have mercy on us. Amen.

And that is what the Cross is, it is Mercy! The Cross purifies us, purifies our capacity to love in the face of adversity, just as He loved so intensely during those cruel hours of the Passion. In learning to embrace the Cross, we learn to love as He did on Calvary, as He does at every single moment of our humble existence. It is human nature to flee the Cross, to absolutely abhor it, to despise it. I’ve certainly hated my fair share of crosses, and as I am not perfect, I tend to grumble when He sends a new one along my way, or makes an existing one heavier. But at the end of the day I understand that it’s because He loves me, He wants me to turn to Him, He wants me to know that I can do nothing without Him. The more I am forced to lean on Him, and the more I understand that I am an absolutely powerless speck of dust without His Love and Mercy sustaining my every effort, the more I love Him, and realize that there is so much more to life than the world would have you believe. In carrying the Cross, we will often fall, and sometimes it will crush us. But we will always find those Veronicas to wipe our tired faces, those Simons to help us carry our cross, and Mary, our most Blessed Mother, will always be there to comfort us. The Via Dolorosa is not only the path that Jesus endured on His way to Cavalry, but it is the exact path that all His followers would take if they wish to find happiness. But the suffering will never be too intense when you trust in His Mercy, because He grants to even the poorest sinner the graces needed to endure, to persevere to the very last hour when the time has come to commend our souls into the hands of the Father. Trust in Him. He will not abandon you. He never will, even if it seems like it. Still, even in your doubt, Boss10L, He has not lost faith in You, for His faith knows no bounds. He is calling you. You will seek Him through the Church, through His Word. He will cleanse you in Reconciliation and give you Light. Your soul longs for Him, and, cleansed by the power of His Mercy, when you recieve His Divine Body and Blood in the Most Holy Eucharist, you will experience the closest and most intimate relationship that you will have with Him on this side of eternity. Trust Him. He will not let you down. God bless you.
 
I’m muddling along as best I can on this path that I’ve chosen (and chosen for me in some instances). I don’t know where it’s going to lead me. I just want to find some solace, happiness and true peace for the first time in my life.
You might be an atheist, but whoever suffers is close to Jesus. “Blessed are ye that mourn, for ye shall be comforted.”

I think the ‘God’ you have a problem with is not Jesus, but the ‘God of this World’. And that is a very good thing, for the ‘God of this World’ is the Devil, the opposite of what Christ stood for.

Jesus came not for the rich, not for the virtuous, but for the outcasts, the sick, the poor. Perhaps in the hopelessness of disbelief, we come closest to Jesus on the Cross who cried “Father, why have you abanonded me?”

Perhaps in the confidence of our beliefs, our secure doctrines, we Church-goers (I speak only for myself) are nothing but Pharisees.
 
I’ve brought up this point many times on these forums,
and to this day no atheist has answered it,
not Perplexity, not BORZ, not Belorg, not ThinkingSapeins, nobody. :mad:

Here’s the point…

It is impossible that the universe, ( in whatever form you wish to think of it )
has existed through an infinite past. There cannot be an infinite past, only a finite past.
Therefore, the universe had a beginning.
Therefore, there had to be a God to start it.

Anybody want to refute that?
🍿
Sure. Just take out the word God, replace it with the word Cause (or ‘cause’), and what you’ve got there works just fine.

Or keep God, if you must. A deistic God isn’t totally implausible - but that’s no help to any Christian trying to make the case that this God has any exclusive interest in human affairs.
 
There is far too much good stuff for me to respond to properly right now, particularly Rosatus’ wonderful posts. This unseasonably warm winter weather (how’s that for alliteration, 'eh?) is still wreaking havoc on my poor sinuses. Time to take some more Sudafed and hit the hay. I will endeavor to respond in earnest in the morning. Before I do go to bed tonight, however, I think I will grab my iPad and read from the KJB. Maybe it will give me solace. Maybe it won’t. Either way, reading more is never a bad thing.

That being said, I must reply quickly to this:
I’ve brought up this point many times on these forums,
and to this day no atheist has answered it,
not Perplexity, not BORZ, not Belorg, not ThinkingSapeins, nobody. :mad:

Here’s the point…

It is impossible that the universe, ( in whatever form you wish to think of it )
has existed through an infinite past. There cannot be an infinite past, only a finite past.
Therefore, the universe had a beginning.
Therefore, there had to be a God to start it.

Anybody want to refute that?
🍿
Regardless of belief or lack thereof, you’re making a pretty big claim. Yes, we know that the Big Bang happened some 13 billion years ago. That doesn’t mean that it was the the only birth of any universe, or the first birth of this universe.

First, there’s a very real possibility that our universe is but one of who knows how many multiverses. It’s been hypothesized that the Big Bang might’ve been caused by something happening in one of the other universes, thus reverberating the “walls” of it’s own space-time and creating ours.

Secondly, obviously you’re familiar with the Big Bang. There’s another theory (which holds quite a bit of credence - IMHO), that says there will be a Big Crunch. At the center of every galaxy in the universe is a black hole. At some point in the very distant future, they will consume all matter within the universe, ultimately becoming one last black hole. It will collapse upon itself, which is in essence a singularity. What’s not to say that what we perceive as the Big Bang is nothing more than the next evolution in a cycle where the Big Bang happens, the Big Crunch happens, and then rinse and repeat? Yeah, there’s holes in it, but it’s very possible.

Lastly, c’mon. Even if I were converted right at this second, I’d debunk your argument in a second by saying that if the universe was not always here and had to have a start, and that the start was God, what started God?

It’s all circuitous logic and conjecture. Regardless of what happens in my life with regards to faith and religion, I’d like to think that if there is a God that he would much rather us stop arguing over if he exists or not and simply make the world a better place by taking care of our fellow man/woman/etc.

:thankyou:
 
Sure. Just take out the word God, replace it with the word Cause (or ‘cause’), and what you’ve got there works just fine.

Or keep God, if you must. A deistic God isn’t totally implausible - but that’s no help to any Christian trying to make the case that this God has any exclusive interest in human affairs.
Oh, beat me to it. 👍
 
Originally Posted by ASimon
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Sure. Just take out the word God, replace it with the word Cause (or ‘cause’), and what you’ve got there works just fine.

Or keep God, if you must. A deistic God isn’t totally implausible - but that’s no help to any Christian trying to make the case that this God has any exclusive interest in human affairs.


BOSL11 replied:
Oh, beat me to it. 👍

Well, what do you know! I finally got some atheists’ responses. Of course they’re half-baked.
Let’s take them one at a time.
Sure. Just take out the word God, replace it with the word Cause (or ‘cause’), and what you’ve got there works just fine.
So this ‘cause’ is not a God? Then it’s part of the universe. Remember that I said “universe in whatever form you want to think it”. So this just pushes things back. Not verty creditable.
Or keep God, if you must. A deistic God isn’t totally implausible - but that’s no help to any Christian trying to make the case that this God has any exclusive interest in human affairs.
First things first!
First, you must decide whether there is a God. He may be good or evil, omniscient or stupid, powerful or helpless, big or small.
but first you must decide whether there is a God.
Then you try to work out the characteristics of God.
 
Regardless of belief or lack thereof, you’re making a pretty big claim. Yes, we know that the Big Bang happened some 13 billion years ago. That doesn’t mean that it was the the only birth of any universe, or the first birth of this universe.
My reply #1
So let’s assume that before the BIg Bang there was something else. What, we can’t imagine but that’s not important. There was something else. And before that there was something else. And something else before that. Can we go back to infinity? No. There had to be a God who started it all.
First, there’s a very real possibility that our universe is but one of who knows how many multiverses. It’s been hypothesized that the Big Bang might’ve been caused by something happening in one of the other universes, thus reverberating the “walls” of it’s own space-time and creating ours.
My reply #2
This has to be rejected as explained by my reply #1. You can’t go back to infinity.
Secondly, obviously you’re familiar with the Big Bang. There’s another theory (which holds quite a bit of credence - IMHO), that says there will be a Big Crunch. At the center of every galaxy in the universe is a black hole. At some point in the very distant future, they will consume all matter within the universe, ultimately becoming one last black hole. It will collapse upon itself, which is in essence a singularity. What’s not to say that what we perceive as the Big Bang is nothing more than the next evolution in a cycle where the Big Bang happens, the Big Crunch happens, and then rinse and repeat? Yeah, there’s holes in it, but it’s very possible.
My reply #3
The ‘holes’ in it is that each of these ‘cycles’ happened a finite time ago.
Lastly, c’mon. Even if I were converted right at this second, I’d debunk your argument in a second by saying that if the universe was not always here and had to have a start, and that the start was God, what started God?
My reply #4
God is the Necessary Being. He cannot not exist.
The universe clearly does not exist necessarily because it’s always changing. Something that exists necessarily can’t change. It must alway be what it is, and that’s God.
It’s all circuitous logic and conjecture. Regardless of what happens in my life with regards to faith and religion, I’d like to think that if there is a God that he would much rather us stop arguing over if he exists or not and simply make the world a better place by taking care of our fellow man/woman/etc.
My reply #5
If it’s all ciruitous logc and conjecture and a total waste of time, why did you start this thread?
Like I said in my previous post
First things first. First we determine if there is a God. Then we’ll worry about his characteristics.
 
I am trying to hold my self back. But I am not sure how much longer I can stop my self from intellectually humiliating the atheists on this thread.
 
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