Why? Why must God exist? Honest, even handed questions

[BOSS10L]

My reply #1
So let’s assume that before the BIg Bang there was something else. What, we can’t imagine but that’s not important. There was something else. And before that there was something else. And something else before that. Can we go back to infinity? No. There had to be a God who started it all.

Why? Why can’t we go back to infinity? Can you show me some scientific or mathematical proof that shows that we can’t go back to infinity?

My reply #4
God is the Necessary Being. He cannot not exist.
The universe clearly does not exist necessarily because it’s always changing. Something that exists necessarily can’t change. It must alway be what it is, and that’s God.

Again, why? Why is God the necessary being? We know through physics that matter can be created from nothing. And based on everything I’ve ever read points to the fact that everything that ever is, does change in one way or another.

reply #5
If it’s all ciruitous logc and conjecture and a total waste of time, why did you start this thread?
Like I said in my previous post
First things first. First we determine if there is a God. Then we’ll worry about his characteristics.

You’re right. I’m wondering why I started this thread. I guess that in my grief and struggling I thought that talking things out would somehow allow me to come to a better understanding of my life and what relationship, if any, I might have with your God and how I might someday make him my God. But it’s obvious that while there are some here who hope to foster a friendly atmosphere and behave as their Christ would want them to, just as many others have come bearing swords and shields, refusing to even help the afflicted work through their torments.

And with regards to the quotes in your signature, maybe you should get out more. She was far from the beacon that everyone purported her to be. Yes, from the outside she served, but internally, not so much:

www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1655720,00.html

 

[BOSS10L]

I am trying to hold my self back. But I am not sure how much longer I can stop my self from intellectually humiliating the atheists on this thread.

You know what? Bring it. Because at this point I know that there’s no way that 99% of the people in this thread could even concede that those who question anything are automatically wrong or that they’re not worthy to bask in the light of this message board.

This is one of the reasons I’ve stayed away from religion and God all those years. Any institution that requires absolute blind adherence and openly mocks anyone who might (even for a second) have a free thought of their own is one I don’t want to be a part of.

 

[BOSS10L]

Rosatus (and others who have come bearing kind words), thank you for your patience and understanding. Unfortunately, I am suffering right now, trying to find my way, and the attacks on my character and intellect are more than I’d wish to partake in.

I came here with honest questions. Yes, I’m a nearly life-long atheist, so my slant may have been a bit gruff to begin with, but in my heart, I truly wasn’t looking to pick a fight or have many of my qualities called into question.

I can’t say whether or not I’ll be back. I’ve definitely been given a lot to think about by the great responses, but at the same time, the negativity of some have actually proved internal biases I’ve held for many years.

Regardless, I want to say thank you to those who came forward with open hearts and minds, and didn’t act judgmental. Particularly you, Rosatus. You’ve done more in a few days to make me question my atheism than any culmination of things in the preceding three decades. I don’t know where my journey will lead me, but know that your words will stay with me and that you’ll always have a place in my heart for helping me try and understand the trials which I’ve been given to endure.

Best,

Derek

 

[ASimon]

So this ‘cause’ is not a God? Then it’s part of the universe. Remember that I said “universe in whatever form you want to think it”. So this just pushes things back. Not verty creditable.

You’re the one claiming, first, that God existence is timeless and eternal (How is that?), second, that he exists outside the Universe (when there’s no evidence that there is an “outside the universe”), and finally, that ‘God’ is the only Anything that can meet these criteria (Why is that?).

You have no basis for any of this other than your own desire to reverse-engineer the whole process to (eventually) square with Christian theology. I’m simply showing you how none of it is even the slightest bit logical, and can just as easily be applied to anything other entity one could want.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

You know what? Bring it. Because at this point I know that there’s no way that 99% of the people in this thread could even concede that those who question anything are automatically wrong or that they’re not worthy to bask in the light of this message board.

Neither would I. But you are wrong about the evidence for God.

This is one of the reasons I’ve stayed away from religion and God all those years.

Fluff. You want every excuse to stay away.

Any institution that requires absolute blind adherence.

Rubbish. Anybody that studies the history Of Catholic philosophy or just Catholic history in general knows that you’re representing a fallacy.

and openly mocks anyone who might (even for a second) .

I think in this case you were asking for it.

have a free thought of their own is one I don’t want to be a part of.

Free thought? It doesn’t get more outlandish or anti-freewill than to think that rational thought is ultimately the direct product of blind, non-rational, unguided, deterministic/indeterministic, physical events. Ridiculous; and if we were talking about any other subject matter which didn’t require you to defend your beloved atheism, you would see that it was ridiculous to.

Metaphysical-Naturalism is an insult to human intelligence, and you know it.

Poor you.

 

[JDaniel]

You know what? Bring it. Because at this point I know that there’s no way that 99% of the people in this thread could even concede that those who question anything are automatically wrong or that they’re not worthy to bask in the light of this message board.

This is one of the reasons I’ve stayed away from religion and God all those years. Any institution that requires absolute blind adherence and openly mocks anyone who might (even for a second) have a free thought of their own is one I don’t want to be a part of.

Boss:

It’s not religion that a number of posters are having a problem with, it’s your logic. You are conflating “secular” logic with religious belief. Think about that for a bit. Don’t get angry; don’t get argumentative; and don’t get defensive.

There is an unfortunate consequence of having been here (on this forum) for a long time. Eventually, one tends to become frazzled by constantly having to show that atheist arguments are demonstrably imprecise, and, well, just wrong. It’s one thing to talk to you - respectfully both directions - about your burden. It’s another thing to have to face another died-in-the-wool atheist who hasn’t done any homework. And, truthfully, you haven’t.

So, if you want to give it a fresh start, then let’s do it. But, if you are a clever troll, here only to rile the Christians, before long we’ll have none of that.

You started out with a longish, opening post, that was full of sincerity. Then, almost as quickly as you released your last breath, you showed much more than being just a person who was sincerely seeking Truth.

So, what will it be? Belief seeking, or belief bashing?

Oh, and by the way, to believe that God did all of those things to you, is, forgive me, rather egotistical.

God bless,
jd

 

[Rosatus]

Rosatus (and others who have come bearing kind words), thank you for your patience and understanding. Unfortunately, I am suffering right now, trying to find my way, and the attacks on my character and intellect are more than I’d wish to partake in.

I came here with honest questions. Yes, I’m a nearly life-long atheist, so my slant may have been a bit gruff to begin with, but in my heart, I truly wasn’t looking to pick a fight or have many of my qualities called into question.

I can’t say whether or not I’ll be back. I’ve definitely been given a lot to think about by the great responses, but at the same time, the negativity of some have actually proved internal biases I’ve held for many years.

Regardless, I want to say thank you to those who came forward with open hearts and minds, and didn’t act judgmental. Particularly you, Rosatus. You’ve done more in a few days to make me question my atheism than any culmination of things in the preceding three decades. I don’t know where my journey will lead me, but know that your words will stay with me and that you’ll always have a place in my heart for helping me try and understand the trials which I’ve been given to endure.

Best,

Derek

Derek, I have read several of the other responses from those who call themselves “Catholic”, but it seems from their hostility that they are nonetheless Pharisees, which is quite an embarrasment, because whether they realize it or not, their accusing tone can best be attributed to Satan, who is the accuser of the son of man (that is, of us all). The evil one will accuse God as the source of pain and misery, and will attempt to accuse each one of us in our wrongdoings. Somone sins: Satan says “See! Look what you’ve done! Now you’re in for it! God hates you now! Give up while you can, you are a hopeless case! Your sin is too great for Him to forgive!” Jesus would say, “Do not fear anything. I am with you. These matters are in My hands and I will bring them to fruition according to My mercy, for nothing can oppose My will… For you, I am mercy itself; therefore I ask you to offer Me your misery and this very helplessness of yours and, in this way, you will delight My Heart.” (Jesus’ words to Saint Faustina, a 20th century nun, in her Diary “Divine Mercy in My Soul.” I would highly recommend looking up “Divine Mercy” and reading “The Diary of Saint Faustina” if you’d like to learn more about the Mercy and Love of God, especially regarding the trials and sufferings we face. A powerful first-hand experience of Divine Mercy is what changed my life. It was unmistakable.)

Know that you will always have someone praying for you. With your many struggles, the time is ripe to turn to Him, and you can perhaps identify with the Wounded Physician now more than ever. Do not give up if you meet obstacles, or if you encounter anyting that causes you to doubt. Keep going. I have great confidence in His plans for you.

The Peace and Love of Christ be with you now and always,
Felix

 

[timotheos]

Thanks in advance.

Long question, BOSS10L. It’s not a bad one either. I’d say just about everybody asks it at some time and in some form. I like to start with facts.

Fact #1: You and I are going to die.

Fact #2: We only have from now until then to figure out just who the heck we are.

Fact #3: It doesn’t really matter what anyone else thinks, we have to ultimately decide for ourselves, although there is a lot of material out there to help us think it through.

Fact #4: You are on this forum, haunted, like everyone, by a question that has absolutely no direct physical or earthly reason for ever being posed by anyone.

Back to Fact #2. Thanks for being here. --Tim

 

[empther]

BOSS10L wrote:

And with regards to the quotes in your signature, maybe you should get out more. She was far from the beacon that everyone purported her to be. Yes, from the outside she served, but internally, not so much:

time.com/time/magazine/ar…655720,00.html

Well, this is really amazing! I mean, I can’t believe my eyes.

You got that so wrong it’s hard to believe anybody could get it so wrong.

You give a reference to some trash website about Mother Teresa of Calcutta and think my signature refers to her:

MY CURRENT SIGNATURE:
"Let’s see atheists explain a miracle like Theresa. … She knows there is evil… It doesn’t affect her. " – Father Donoughty

“Theresa’s North Korea adventure proved something. She can destroy any weapon we throw at her. She is invulnerable.” – General Walters

How could you get it so wrong? Did Mother Theresa have the power to destroy any weapon thrown at her? Would a general say she did?

My signature refers to a novel I wrote. The chapter outlines can be found here.
http://www.empresstheresa.com/chapter_outlines
　
Jumping to conclusions without taking the time to think things out is what got you into this atheism mess.

 

[mike_ogan]

A very readable and comprehensive “proof” that Jesus was/is a mythical god is found in The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy. It is available in most secular libraries.
But one can figure it out independently. Having a god for a father and a mortal woman for a mother is common in mythology. As is having a celestial event at birth. And being born in a cave. And dignitaries recognizing the birth as important. In fact, the whole of the gospels is a play about the fulfillment of myths. The human sacrifice for redemption, the scapegoat myth, the dying and reappearing after 3 days; all common myths, long before Jesus. The sun standing still at the crucifixion, the dead of Jerusalem walking around, all would have been recorded by historians.
And Herod killing all the little boys is the same myth as Moses being floated down the Nile in a basket. It didn’t happen in reality. Historians of the day absolutely would have recorded that if it was a historic fact.
I thought being a Christian was believing in the morality of the teachings of Jesus, and about trying to live life as did Jesus? One can recognize that Jesus was mythical and still do that.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

A very readable and comprehensive “proof” that Jesus was/is a mythical god is found in The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy. It is available in most secular libraries.
But one can figure it out independently. Having a god for a father and a mortal woman for a mother is common in mythology. As is having a celestial event at birth. And being born in a cave. And dignitaries recognizing the birth as important. In fact, the whole of the gospels is a play about the fulfillment of myths. The human sacrifice for redemption, the scapegoat myth, the dying and reappearing after 3 days; all common myths, long before Jesus. The sun standing still at the crucifixion, the dead of Jerusalem walking around, all would have been recorded by historians.
And Herod killing all the little boys is the same myth as Moses being floated down the Nile in a basket. It didn’t happen in reality. Historians of the day absolutely would have recorded that if it was a historic fact.
I thought being a Christian was believing in the morality of the teachings of Jesus, and about trying to live life as did Jesus? One can recognize that Jesus was mythical and still do that.

He was recorded by secular historians, do some homework. Even Richard Dawkins, as feeble minded as he is, acknowledges Jesus existed as he knows the proof is undeniale and the position is moronic.

 

[empther]

There was a book published in the 1960s called “The Passover Plot”.

According to this travesty, the Apostles and a man with the name Jesus orchestrated the cruxifixition to start a cult. The “Jesus” even went to the cross, but some went wrong. They didn’t expect the Roman soldier to thrust his spear in “Jesus’” side. Oh well! ’
But they got the cult going.

Of course, this doesn’t explain why all the Apostles went to distant lands and got themselves martyred.
Seems to me if these guys were in on a plot, they would stay home and enjoy the fruits of their labors: millions of dollars in donations from the gullible faithful, huge mansions, Lamborghinis, Rolex watches and plenty of women.

The exercize of a little intelligence can expose the largest lie.

 

[mike_ogan]

The fact is; Jesus was not recorded by any historian of the first century. There is an obvious forgery in Josephus; other than that, nothing. Why does it bother you so much that Jesus was the Paul Bunyan of the first century? You can still believe his teachings.

 

[Simon123454321]

Where to start? If you are truely an athiest then why are you posting here? Either you are trying to convince catholics to convert to your faith of athiesm or you are not an athiest, but someone questioning your faith.

Logically, looking at your many arguments, and assuming you are an athiest I am confused. Statistically human life should not exist. And according to entrophy, it only makes sense that babies will not all be formed perfectly and that people, like planets, suns and galaxies will come to an end.

So if you are an athiest you should not be at all angry that “bad” things happen, it only makes sense that they would. In fact you should be confused as to why more bad thing’s don’t happen if there is no greater power holding it all together.

If God has touched your spirit to make you question your lack of faith and has brought you to this forum to learn to listen to him, then more reading and less yelling is probably in order.

If you are mad at God because your relgious grandmother died when you were 11 years old, they why state that you are an athiest. An athiest can’t be mad at a God who doesn’t exist.

You are hurting, you have had things happen that make you sad and angry. God talks to us through our weakness not through our strength. When you get sad enough, and angry enough and get to the point where you realize that being mad at God is not working for you, sit in a quiet place, set aside from others and say “God your will be done, not mine, help me, heal me and welcome me into your arms.” Ask for with all your heart for him to start healing your pain and see what happens. How can it get any worse, right? You are not there yet, you have much more anger and hate to burn through before your life becomes disfunctinoal enough to open your heart to God. But he is waiting patiently, lovingly, knowingly. Waiting for you to give up your pride and your hate and let him heal you. He is love, he is peace, he is those things that you liked about your grandmother, but have now rejected in your own life. But that hope lives on in you, that gift of hope from your grandmother. Should you chose to honor her death and embrace that hope, you will find God. If you don’t, you can expect your son to learn not love, but anger and hate from you. Do you want to pass on to your son what your grandmother passed on to you…or the anguish you are feeling now?

 

[Qoeleth]

I’ve brought up this point many times on these forums,
and to this day no atheist has answered it,
not Perplexity, not BORZ, not Belorg, not ThinkingSapeins, nobody.

Here’s the point…

It is impossible that the universe, ( in whatever form you wish to think of it )
has existed through an infinite past. There cannot be an infinite past, only a finite past.
Therefore, the universe had a beginning.
Therefore, there had to be a God to start it.

Anybody want to refute that?

Yes, I am Christian, but I would like to refute it.
Maybe the universe is circular?
Maybe the whole notion of an ‘origin’ of the universe is false- a product of our concept of time, which is nothing more than a medium of our perception?
Furthermore,
If God started the Universe, why is it not perfect, why is it full of evil, vanity, futility, injustice, poverty, hunger, disease, war, suffering, sodomy, rape, deception?

The real God (i.e. Jesus) had nothing in common with this alleged ‘creator’, who, on the whole, to judge him by his work, seems to be quite demonic. On the contrary Jesus was hated by the Kosmos, because he gave evidence against it, that it was evil. (Jn 7:7)

To equate the Christian God (i.e. Jesus) with the God of this World (1 Cor 4:4) is blasphemy.

As Christians, we need to talk about God as REDEEMER from this World, and not keep harping on the same ‘Creation’ arguments, which talk only about some Deistic or pagan quasi-god.

Jesus is love, mercy, compassion.

The ‘Uncaused Cause’ is totally irellevant to the Gospel of Christ.

 

[tonyrey]

2/2

Well, I can’t with regards to smell. Don’t have any. True story. But, to give you examples:

Goodness - someone opening a door for someone else. Giving another patron some extra money when they realize they’re short on their bill at the cafe.

Freedom - watching a parent being able to go home and spend quality time with their child(ren) rather than slave away at a company that pays less in taxes than they do. Being able to stand up to the church and flip 'em the bird and tell them that my sperm are not sacred, and that if I want to have fun with my wife with the explicit object being to enjoy ourselves and not procreate, then so be it.

Justice - seeing a criminal who’s wronged someone else or society brought to answer for their actions. Watching Wall Street bankers go to jail for their financial raping of the American public.

Love - sitting down in my living room with my one son on my lap and my other son in the next chair over, and the wife on the other side, while we watch a football game or a movie.

Any and all of those things I just listed are all possible. WITHOUT GOD.

That is an assumption!

Life and love aren’t the result of divine intervention. They’re the result of two people exchanging bodily fluids about 41 years ago, and then the subsequent experiences of my time here on earth and then a mutual attraction between my wife and I.

You are taking it for granted that these events **had to **occur…

Again, I really do appreciate everything that’s been said in this thread and I don’t wish anyone ill will or anything like that. I just wish I could get concrete answers to my questions that don’t either come down to quasi-philosopical/theological answers, or worse yet, the typical “because God made it so” responses.

The implication being that “matter made it so” is a more adequate response - in spite of all the evidence for the power of the mind…

I suppose I’ll never get what I’m searching for, because I figure the answers I’m seeking can’t be comprehended or explained by a human mind, and if there is a God, he’s not talking to me.

If you deny that there’s a God how can you expect to believe He is talking to you?!

Believe me, it’d be so much easier to be able to believe. I’m tormented by my atheism. But I just can’t reconcile in my head and heart that there’s a God out there who would allow the things I’ve talked about to happen.

Can you reconcile evil with persons who lack free will?

At this stage, to me, religion is nothing more than the perfect con job. The ultimate form of control. Whip people into shape with fear of fire and brimstone or the promise of forever awesomeness, but once they’ve slaved away all their lives and gone hoping to end up in heaven—they can’t come back to be mad because they’re dead and there’s nothing left but eternal darkness.

Your objections to religion are based on your sense of injustice which doesn’t make sense in a Godless universe!
If only matter exists nothing matters…

 

[empther]

Did you see Quoleth’s post #54 ?

Yes, I am Christian, but I would like to refute it.
Maybe the universe is circular?
Maybe the whole notion of an ‘origin’ of the universe is false- a product of our concept of time, which is nothing more than a medium of our perception?
Furthermore,
If God started the Universe, why is it not perfect, why is it full of evil, vanity, futility, injustice, poverty, hunger, disease, war, suffering, sodomy, rape, deception?

The real God (i.e. Jesus) had nothing in common with this alleged ‘creator’, who, on the whole, to judge him by his work, seems to be quite demonic. On the contrary Jesus was hated by the Kosmos, because he gave evidence against it, that it was evil. (Jn 7:7)

To equate the Christian God (i.e. Jesus) with the God of this World (1 Cor 4:4) is blasphemy.

As Christians, we need to talk about God as REDEEMER from this World, and not keep harping on the same ‘Creation’ arguments, which talk only about some Deistic or pagan quasi-god.

Jesus is love, mercy, compassion.

The ‘Uncaused Cause’ is totally irellevant to the Gospel of Christ.

I have never seen such complete ignorance in my life. Except for the sentence I highlighted in red, every sentence is total nonsense.
It is so bad, it’s an insult to people’s intelligence to even waste time commenting on it line by line.
If people can’t see for themselves all the obvious errors in that post, I can’t help them anymore than the person who wrote it.

 

[Poof]

The fact is; Jesus was not recorded by any historian of the first century. There is an obvious forgery in Josephus; other than that, nothing. Why does it bother you so much that Jesus was the Paul Bunyan of the first century? You can still believe his teachings.

I could understand people who don’t believe in God but to say Jesus didn’t exist is just incredibly idiotic. Keep reading those books and I doubt you’d learn anything factual about God or Christianity.

 

[BOSS10L]

You might be an atheist, but whoever suffers is close to Jesus. “Blessed are ye that mourn, for ye shall be comforted.”

I think the ‘God’ you have a problem with is not Jesus, but the ‘God of this World’. And that is a very good thing, for the ‘God of this World’ is the Devil, the opposite of what Christ stood for.

Jesus came not for the rich, not for the virtuous, but for the outcasts, the sick, the poor. Perhaps in the hopelessness of disbelief, we come closest to Jesus on the Cross who cried “Father, why have you abanonded me?”

Perhaps in the confidence of our beliefs, our secure doctrines, we Church-goers (I speak only for myself) are nothing but Pharisees.

Thank you for your kind words. I have taken them to heart and am adding them to my internal discussion. We shall see where it will lead me.

 

[BOSS10L]

Boss:

It’s not religion that a number of posters are having a problem with, it’s your logic. You are conflating “secular” logic with religious belief. Think about that for a bit. Don’t get angry; don’t get argumentative; and don’t get defensive.

There is an unfortunate consequence of having been here (on this forum) for a long time. Eventually, one tends to become frazzled by constantly having to show that atheist arguments are demonstrably imprecise, and, well, just wrong. It’s one thing to talk to you - respectfully both directions - about your burden. It’s another thing to have to face another died-in-the-wool atheist who hasn’t done any homework. And, truthfully, you haven’t.

So, if you want to give it a fresh start, then let’s do it. But, if you are a clever troll, here only to rile the Christians, before long we’ll have none of that.

You started out with a longish, opening post, that was full of sincerity. Then, almost as quickly as you released your last breath, you showed much more than being just a person who was sincerely seeking Truth.

So, what will it be? Belief seeking, or belief bashing?

Oh, and by the way, to believe that God did all of those things to you, is, forgive me, rather egotistical.

God bless,
jd

JD, I came here with the purest of intents. I’m forty years old with a family and in the last semester of a graduate program and I’m currently working on my thesis. I assure you, I have much better things to be doing than be here specifically for trolling.

That being said, did I possibly come off as gruff or ignorant? Yeah, I’m sure I did. But that being said, when I did attempt to debate (which in my mind is a search for answers), most users here chose to respond not only with their view (which is totally cool), but they did so with forked tongues. I may not be a philosophical wizard, but I’m far from stupid and refuse to be talked to as such. Especially by those who’d claim it is their duty as Christians/Catholics to spread the word of God.

As far as not doing my homework, okay, again I may not be the best debater out there, but what I bring to the table is what I know. There’s no law against ignorance. I know I’m ignorant in many things and I strive to fix that on a daily basis. But again, I’m not stupid and I refuse to be talked to as such.

Everyone here can think what they will of me. The suffering I have posted about is real. As a matter of fact, here is a link to my brother’s page at the funeral home: newcomersyracuse.com/obituary.asp?src=value&obitid=53027&name=Brandon+William++Smith&city=Syracuse&st=NY

I never believed that God did anything to me, I only questioned why he allowed me to suffer so. Did not Christ ask his father why he was forsaken in his time of grief/need?

I’m done debating. I’m not saying I’m right or wrong. But it wouldn’t matter anyway, because if I choose to stay an atheist, you here have no more of a chance to convert me than I to convert you over to atheism.

Thanks for responding. I’d like to stick around and explore what it is I’m going through and where it may take me, if that’s okay.