Why? Why must God exist? Honest, even handed questions

[BOSS10L]

Know that you will always have someone praying for you. With your many struggles, the time is ripe to turn to Him, and you can perhaps identify with the Wounded Physician now more than ever. Do not give up if you meet obstacles, or if you encounter anyting that causes you to doubt. Keep going. I have great confidence in His plans for you.

The Peace and Love of Christ be with you now and always,
Felix

Thank you, Felix. Truth be told, I’d signed out and hadn’t planned on returning. But your words have touched a nerve, and I figured I owed it to myself to see where this path might lead me. I make no promises, but I am coming in with an open heart and mind, and am receptive to all possibilities.

You truly are an inspiration.

 

[BOSS10L]

Well, this is really amazing! I mean, I can’t believe my eyes.

I apologize. I assumed something might be up considering the difference in spelling between your character and the actual Mother Teresa. That being said (and this is all I’ll say regarding this matter from here on out, I’m done debating), why do you consider Time Magazine to be trash website? Last I checked, they’re one of the preeminent periodicals on the planet.

I, too, am a writer. What’s the status of the book? Are you planning on self-publishing or have you submitted to agents? I’ve currently got three novels in the works that are in various stages of completion (one is the first of a planned trilogy); a detective noir, one science fiction, and the last, fantasy. I need to concentrate on finishing my MA this semester an then it’ll be full-bore until they’re finished. I’m hoping to get all three of them done by the end of the year, and if I can find a publisher for the fantasy, I’ll have the sequels done by mid-2013.

Again, I apologize. Good luck with your book. I’d be interested in reading it when it’s released.

 

[BOSS10L]

Where to start? If you are truely an athiest then why are you posting here? Either you are trying to convince catholics to convert to your faith of athiesm or you are not an athiest, but someone questioning your faith.

Just as a point of clarification (and a common misconception) — atheism isn’t a faith. It is the exact opposite. It is the stance that there is no God and therefore cannot be a religion. There is no dogma attached. But that’s neither here nor there.

If God has touched your spirit to make you question your lack of faith and has brought you to this forum to learn to listen to him, then more reading and less yelling is probably in order.

If you are mad at God because your relgious grandmother died when you were 11 years old, they why state that you are an athiest. An athiest can’t be mad at a God who doesn’t exist.

I agree to the first part of the above quoted passage. I should open my eyes and ears and shut my mouth, so that I may better allow any potential messages coming to reach me.

To the second part, it’s not cut-and-dry like that. When my grandmother passed, I was angry and decided that there could be no God if the universe would allow such a great woman to be taken from those who loved her so. So it isn’t that I was or that I am mad at God, because I don’t believe he exists. At least for right now that is.

are hurting, you have had things happen that make you sad and angry. God talks to us through our weakness not through our strength. When you get sad enough, and angry enough and get to the point where you realize that being mad at God is not working for you, sit in a quiet place, set aside from others and say “God your will be done, not mine, help me, heal me and welcome me into your arms.” Ask for with all your heart for him to start healing your pain and see what happens. How can it get any worse, right? You are not there yet, you have much more anger and hate to burn through before your life becomes disfunctinoal enough to open your heart to God. But he is waiting patiently, lovingly, knowingly. Waiting for you to give up your pride and your hate and let him heal you. He is love, he is peace, he is those things that you liked about your grandmother, but have now rejected in your own life. But that hope lives on in you, that gift of hope from your grandmother. Should you chose to honor her death and embrace that hope, you will find God. If you don’t, you can expect your son to learn not love, but anger and hate from you. Do you want to pass on to your son what your grandmother passed on to you…or the anguish you are feeling now?

THIS is the sort of thing I’d hoped to come across. This, along with what Felix (Rosatus) has posted have been the most helpful things in this thread. I will take your advice. I will attempt to listen. But I disagree that I have more hatred, anger and suffering left in me to go. I’m pretty much tapped out right now. That’s why I’m here. I’m tired of being angry all the time. My hatred for the things that have happened cannot continue on, lest they consume me. And that’s the truth, regardless if I move forward as a believer or not.

Thank you for that last paragraph. It has helped a lot and I will definitely keep it in the forefront of my mind in the days to come.

 

[Poof]

Boss I believe you. I’ve been called a “troll” several times despite having sincere intentions…so don’t let those statements get to you. Also, CAF, as great as a forum it is, has a borderline hostile environment. Discussions here can get tense and as a site reviewer once said, this place isn’t for the “thin-skinned”. It’s one of the few cons you’ll have to get used to, but overall, this place is great. It’s full of intellectuals, theists and atheists alike and I’m sure you’ll have a great time here. Hopefully, this place will bring you closer to a belief in God as it has helped me in my religious journey.

 

[BOSS10L]

Boss I believe you. I’ve been called a “troll” several times despite having sincere intentions…so don’t let those statements get to you. Also, CAF, as great as a forum it is, has a borderline hostile environment. Discussions here can get tense and as a site reviewer once said, this place isn’t for the “thin-skinned”. It’s one of the few cons you’ll have to get used to, but overall, this place is great. It’s full of intellectuals, theists and atheists alike and I’m sure you’ll have a great time here. Hopefully, this place will bring you closer to a belief in God as it has helped me in my religious journey.

Well, I’ve found Jennifer Fulwiler (life-long atheist who converted in 2005) through here, and she’s been down the path I’m traveling now. Currently watching a video interview she gave a while back. Quite compelling.

 

[John21652]

Yes, I am Christian, but I would like to refute it.
Maybe the universe is circular?

Could be. There are an awful lot of circular arguments here.

Maybe the whole notion of an ‘origin’ of the universe is false- a product of our concept of time, which is nothing more than a medium of our perception?

Time just measures change, nothing more.

Furthermore,
If God started the Universe, why is it not perfect, why is it full of evil, vanity, futility, injustice, poverty, hunger, disease, war, suffering, sodomy, rape, deception?

Have they discovered these things on other planets? On all other planets? Sodomy on Mars?

The real God (i.e. Jesus) had nothing in common with this alleged ‘creator’, who, on the whole, to judge him by his work, seems to be quite demonic.

So the ‘magic’ of life is demonic? And the way in which the universe fits together and works acording to certain laws is demonic? Add that to all the evil you seem to think is on other panets and gee, maybe we’d better find an alternative universe really fast.

On the contrary Jesus was hated by the Kosmos, because he gave evidence against it, that it was evil. (Jn 7:7)

I’d like to know where you dug up the word ‘Kosmos’ from. As far as my understanding goes, Jesus was talking of ‘the world’ and in particular of the politics and religion of Judea. he wasn’t talking about the goings on on other planets.

To equate the Christian God (i.e. Jesus) with the God of this World (1 Cor 4:4) is blasphemy.

Unless you have invented an entirely new brand of ‘christianity’, you should be accepting of the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Furthermore, you should be accepting of the fact that Jesus came amongst men to set a good example of how to live and obey God’s laws. Follow that example and you should be pretty OK. However, if you think equating jesus with God is somehow blasphemous, then you can’t accept Him as the Son of God. That really does contradict your statement that you are a Christian.

The ‘Uncaused Cause’ is totally irellevant to the Gospel of Christ.

It is a philosophical argument and quite a legitemate one.

 

[John21652]

I am an atheist… I was a Roman Catholic for the first decade of my life, but I began questioning things about 7-8 years old and fully made my switch to atheism at 11. I just turned 40 in January. I am open-minded towards spirituality and faith,

Well, it’s nice to hear you are open-minded at 40. 11 year old’s opinions are notoriously unreliable. That’s one of the reasons 11 year olds are not allowed to stand for political office, or run huge businesses.

but believe that organized religion has been a very destructive force on this planet for a long time and may one day be the human race’s undoing.

I think there is a plethora of evidence that religion has been a saving grace for humanity down through the millenia… Atheism has caused a whole lot more pain and suffering.

• God is … all good. Why did he allow Lucifer to rebel and thus set in motion the creation of Hell? Similarly, why did he allow original sin? If he knew what the outcome would be and is all good, why would he let his children suffer?

Free will.

• Why does he allow bad things (even death) to happen to good people? Why does he take babies, children, and other people long before their time? Why would he make those people’s loved ones suffer so?

All assumptions. God allows natural processes to take place and He doesn’t intervene, except on rare ocassions we call miracles.

• I don’t have links to proof, but it’s long been pointed out that Jesus is nothing more than a literary/astrological hybrid, … Why doesn’t he just send us proof now of his existence and put this all to bed once and for all?

Oh, there’s plenty of proof that He was just as he has been reported as being. Anthropologists, archeologists and Biblical scholars have more than enough evidence. As for why he intervened 2000 years ago, well, it was probably as good a time as any. Ask Him one day.

• There are over 2 billion earth-like planets in the Milky Way galaxy alone. For us to think that we’re the only life in the entire universe is not only extremely arrogant, it’s downright scary. Why does the church teach that we’re so special, so unique, .

Made in God’s image. Aliens might not fit the bill.

• Why must God exist at all?

First mover. An obvious order to creation. Man in God’s image, etc etc etc.

I’m an atheist, yet I’m as good of a person now than if I were a devout Catholic, Christian, or other religion.

Excellent. You are probably adhering to something called Natural Law. .

Do we really need this antiquated, threatening edict of Hell

You’ve been warned!

…if there were a supreme being or whatever out there, they wouldn’t care about what we’re doing here on this miserable planet.

Miserable planet?! Looks pretty amazing judging from all the space photos. And have you considered the Goldilocks zone we live in? That’s amazing.

• Why is it those that claim to be more devout and committed to their religions are usually the ones doing the most harm to their fellow humans? Priests sexually abusing kids, religious leaders bilking the flock out of money and doing other unsavory deeds, etc.

Lots of secular teachers etc abuse kids also. Why does the press focus on handful of priests? And how do you expalin the extraordinary amount of the Catholic Church’s charity works around the world?

• Same-sex relationships appear in almost all, if not all species on earth.

That’s the biggest load of rubbish ever printed. Homosexuality does not exist in the animal kingdom. Animals are hormone driven. Simple. I know, I worked with animals for a very long time. Besides, some animals eat their young too. Should we copy that?

Why is it that some humans are the only ones who abhor it?

You mean like 98% of the human race don’t do it? That indicates it aint normal.

I know it supposedly goes against God, but then again, if the big guy knows everything, why would he make people that way.

Another whopping assumption.

And don’t tell me that there aren’t some gay people out there aren’t really gay. It’s something in their DNA, it’s not a life choice.

Pure unadulterated rubbish. No gay gene has been found.

• Why do so few live in unprecedented wealth and splendor, while so many suffer and struggle just to make ends meet?

Maybe some are more prudent than others?

Didn’t Jesus preach that rich people won’t get into Heaven?

He didn’t.

• Why do religious types feel the need to be in other people’s business?

Non=religious types do too.

In particular I’m talking about laws attempting to be passed that will clearly violate rights of one person so that someone else, who happens to be a believer, can feel they did the right thing.

Some ‘rights’ are not right. Moral issues, you see. Society needs morality to function.

• Why does God allow babies to be born with birth defects or other problems? They couldn’t have possibly done anything to warrant it.

Nature. If God intervened all the time, no one would appreciate it anyway.

• Why is it that the God depicted in the Bible is angry, vengeful, jealous, spiteful and a whole host of other things that are clearly not the qualities that an all-good God should have?

Perhaps even tolerance has its limits. God is above all, a Just God.

This isn’t the Dark Ages anymore. We know what diseases are. We understand the natural phenomena that happens in our daily life and don’t need to attribute them to a thing we can’t see, taste, touch, smell, or whatever.

Gimme a break. They still can’t predict the weather!

If someone could prove to me that God exists, I’d be the happiest person on the planet

There’s plenty of proof’ you just need to open your eyes. And have faith.

 

[empther]

BOSS10L,

I, too, am a writer. What’s the status of the book? Are you planning on self-publishing or have you submitted to agents? I’ve currently got three novels in the works that are in various stages of completion (one is the first of a planned trilogy); a detective noir, one science fiction, and the last, fantasy. I need to concentrate on finishing my MA this semester an then it’ll be full-bore until they’re finished. I’m hoping to get all three of them done by the end of the year, and if I can find a publisher for the fantasy, I’ll have the sequels done by mid-2013.

I’ve gotten about ten rejection sllips from literary agents, which I understand is just the beginning of the journey. John Grisham, “The Firm” etc, got 30 rejections for his first novel.
There is a movie about to come out called “The Help”. The book got 60 rejections.

I’ve been working on Empress Theresa since 1994 and completed it Jan 2, 2011, a liittle over a year ago. It was 142,000 words but I’ve cut that down to 120,000. There was never a “eureka moment”. The idea gradually evolved over seventeen years.

You can always write a million murder mysteries, a million romance novels, and a million sci/fi novels. Your choices are limitlless. For example: in a mystery you can have a dozen suspects. You can have a dozen different endings, just by tweaking the story development a litlle.

Empress Theresa could only be written once and the story went on the shelf forever. It was my responsibility to make it as good as possible. I’ve rejected enough ideas over the years to fill ten books. What remains is what makes sense.

An older person, experienced in life, will read between the lines and see the universal themes in the book: God’s providence, the potential for good in people, intelligence and stupidity, heroism, power and mercy. The younger audience may not see any of that but just see an interesting story. With that in mind I wrote the text so that a ten year can follow the basic story ( there are only three* important* main characters ). High school kids will find Theresa’s conquering all adversities inspiring. College students will like the science and politics.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m tormented by my atheism.

Then you cannot be satisfied that it is true. Agnosticism would be a more reasonable attitude to reality.

But I just can’t reconcile in my head and heart that there’s a God out there who would allow the things I’ve talked about to happen.

You need to explain how they could be prevented without upsetting the apple cart!

 

[BOSS10L]

I’ve gotten about ten rejection sllips from literary agents, which I understand is just the beginning of the journey. John Grisham, “The Firm” etc, got 30 rejections for his first novel.
There is a movie about to come out called “The Help”. The book got 60 rejections.

I’ve been working on Empress Theresa since 1994 and completed it Jan 2, 2011, a liittle over a year ago. It was 142,000 words but I’ve cut that down to 120,000. There was never a “eureka moment”. The idea gradually evolved over seventeen years.

You can always write a million murder mysteries, a million romance novels, and a million sci/fi novels. Your choices are limitlless. For example: in a mystery you can have a dozen suspects. You can have a dozen different endings, just by tweaking the story development a litlle.

Empress Theresa could only be written once and the story went on the shelf forever. It was my responsibility to make it as good as possible. I’ve rejected enough ideas over the years to fill ten books. What remains is what makes sense.

An older person, experienced in life, will read between the lines and see the universal themes in the book: God’s providence, the potential for good in people, intelligence and stupidity, heroism, power and mercy. The younger audience may not see any of that but just see an interesting story. With that in mind I wrote the text so that a ten year can follow the basic story ( there are only three* important* main characters ). High school kids will find Theresa’s conquering all adversities inspiring. College students will like the science and politics.

Yeah, that’s the way it goes, unfortunately. Many more now famous authors languished in obscurity before hitting it big (I abhor them both, but Harry Potter and Twilight are two that immediately come to mind). Yes, it’s nice to think that someday my writing could be read by who knows how many people, but I don’t write for anyone else but me. I don’t know that I’d ever go the route of self-publishing a physical book, but there’s something to be said about what the e-reader (and Apple’s iBooks) revolution is bringing to writers all over the world. I have a few friends who’ve done well for themselves (relatively speaking) by pursuing this course.

Have the agents just given flat-out denials or have they sent along any advice? One thing I noticed off the bat is that it’s ~400 pages long (to me, average pages have 300 words, double-spaced). I wonder if that might be a part of it. Then again, a good friend who’s had over twenty different books published in multiple genres has told me that these days, unless your book is exceptional or extremely marketable (ie-YA, trilogy, etc), most publishing houses don’t want to look at you.

Which at the end of the day is fine by me. I always feel that a piece is what it is. It’s as long or short as it has to be, and it does what it does. I don’t expect to ever make it big, which again is no big deal because I don’t write for anyone else. If I ever start doing that, it’s not me anymore behind the pen/keyboard, and what’s the sense in that?

Good luck with it. You might consider attempting to contact small, independent presses directly rather than going through an agent. I mean, if it gets published and then blows up all famous, you can always move to a bigger company.

 

[empther]

You might consider attempting to contact small, independent presses directly rather than going through an agent.

I’m losing confidence in agents. Apparently if you’re not already a published author they won’t even look at your stuff. Does that make sense? Carried to extremes, when all current writers died of old age they would never be replaced.

I have “Writer’s Market” guide which lists most agents and book publishers, large or small.
I noticed that some book publishers ask for a chapter by chapter outline. I’ve never found an agent who asked for this, which tells me the book publishers are more serious about evaluating your work.
That’s why I threw together this chapter outline, to send it to book publishers. I’m also putting it on my website to prove the story is mine, which is the purpose of the website.

 

[BOSS10L]

I’m losing confidence in agents. Apparently if you’re not already a published author they won’t even look at your stuff. Does that make sense? Carried to extremes, when all current writers died of old age they would never be replaced.

I have “Writer’s Market” guide which lists most agents and book publishers, large or small.
I noticed that some book publishers ask for a chapter by chapter outline. I’ve never found an agent who asked for this, which tells me the book publishers are more serious about evaluating your work.
That’s why I threw together this chapter outline, to send it to book publishers. I’m also putting it on my website to prove the story is mine, which is the purpose of the website.

That’s why I’m really liking what I’m seeing out of digital publishing and small publishing houses. Like I said, I know I’m never going to hit it big. I write for me and me alone, but if I can make a few bucks along the way, so be it.

It’s a nasty, self-fufilling prophecy. Many of the old guard of media still refuse to get with the times. I could bet that if we had the money and funded a group of ~20 talented YouTubers, they’d come up with something on par, or better than what’s coming out of Hollywood right now. I’d venture that the same is probably true of the book publishing sector as well. My wife is heavily into alternate universe fan fiction, and while most of what I’ve seen is utter tripe, there are some stories that are quite good.

Just like anything else, there can be no reward without risk. We must open ourselves to the possibility of rejection before we can ever gain acceptance.

Speaking of which, I’ve got a thesis to get back to…80 more days until graduation!!

 

[Qoeleth]

Could be. There are an awful lot of circular arguments here.
Time just measures change, nothing more.
Have they discovered these things on other planets? On all other planets? Sodomy on Mars?

So the ‘magic’ of life is demonic? And the way in which the universe fits together and works acording to certain laws is demonic? Add that to all the evil you seem to think is on other panets and gee, maybe we’d better find an alternative universe really fast. I’d like to know where you dug up the word ‘Kosmos’ from. As far as my understanding goes, Jesus was talking of ‘the world’ and in particular of the politics and religion of Judea. he wasn’t talking about the goings on on other planets.

Unless you have invented an entirely new brand of ‘christianity’, you should be accepting of the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Furthermore, you should be accepting of the fact that Jesus came amongst men to set a good example of how to live and obey God’s laws. Follow that example and you should be pretty OK. However, if you think equating jesus with God is somehow blasphemous, then you can’t accept Him as the Son of God. That really does contradict your statement that you are a Christian.

It is a philosophical argument and quite a legitemate one.

Let me clarify- the word “Kosmos” in Jn 7:7 (and elsewhere) is the original Greek word used which tends to be translated as ‘world’, but the retention of the original conveys better its metaphysical significance. John’s Gospel speaks about Satan as “The Ruler of This Kosmos”. The use of the term “Kosmos” in the Gospel of John is distinctly metaphysical (equating with Cosmos in current English usage).

What I said is that equating Jesus with the Ruler of this World (cf. Jn 12, 14, etc.) or the God of this World (cf. 2 Cor 4:4) is blasphemous, because both of these figures are the Devil. Yes, to equate Jesus with Satan (the God of this World, the Ruler of this World) IS blasphemous, perhaps the ultimate blasphemy. I hope you agree.

I find Jesus to have very little in common with the “Uncaused Cause”. Even if you prove philosophically the “Uncaused Cause”, it says nothing about the Gospel, and leaves us with a cold and indifferent Aristotelian ‘God’. “Nothing this Kosmos has to offer…could ever come from the Father,” as the Beloved Apostle said.

 

[empther]

BOSS10L,

That’s why I’m really liking what I’m seeing out of digital publishing and small publishing houses. Like I said, I know I’m never going to hit it big. I write for me and me alone, but if I can make a few bucks along the way, so be it.

A month ago, my sister visited a pet store, and there was a young woman there who had been allowed to set up a table to sell a book she’d written. She asked my sister, “Do you like cats?”

That week the Sunday edition of our local newspaper had a review of this woman and her book. It was about the goings on in a Catholic priests’ rectory as seen through the eyes of the pet cat. ( sounds like a real spine tingler, don’t it? ) The newspaper mentioned the “Publisher”. I looked it up, and the publisher is an “author subsidized publisher”. In other words, this woman had paid this “publisher” to print out X number of books and send them to her. It was then her responsibility to sell the stupid books.

I think this is really sad. Self-publishing is not for me.

---

As previously noted, I wrote out a chapter by chapter outline of Empress Theresa and put it on my website. The purpose of doing this was the same as the purpose of the website: to protect my work. Let’s see somebody claim they threw that complicated story together in a few months!
Once you query a few literary agents, the story is out there. So you got to protect it.

However, another reason for putting my outline on the website is to get movie producers to notice. Getting a book printed is secondary.
The scenes in Empress Theresa if put in a movie would blow away any special effects yet seen. Not mindless destruction of cities or junk like that which is common today, but massive movements of matter by Theresa’s efforts for constructive purposes.
Also, Theresa’s escape from the jet fighter is one heck of an exciting scene, and her face off with four million North Koreans is as tense a scene as you’ll find. What the hell was she thinking?

Also, the evacuation of the Israelis would be a jaw dropping spectacle, all the more poignant in that Catholic girl Theresa makes it possible with no possible rewards for herself but considerable risk, analogous to* Schindler’s List*. . Is Steven Spielberg. out there?

empresstheresa.com/chapter_outlines

 

[mike_ogan]

BOSS10L asked, “- I don’t have links to proof, but it’s long been pointed out that Jesus is nothing more than a literary/astrological hybrid, and that many of the Christian doctrines were adapted from Jewish ones, which were all but lifted from ancient Egyptian belief systems. Where’s any proof that he was real?”
To help him in his search for truth, I pointed to a book by Freke and Gandy, “THE JESUS MYSTERIES: How the Pagan Mysteries of Osiris-Dionysus Were Rewritten as the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
I am attacked to “do your homework.” But the fact remains, other than an obvious forgery in Josephus, Jesus does not appear in any historical accounts of the first century. Don’t just call me stupid; tell me where a historical record of Jesus in the first century is. I have done my research; Jesus is mythical, not historical.
And don’t use Richard Dawkins to bolster your argument, saying that he believes in a historical Jesus. It would be easy to prove. Just give me a book and page number where he wrote of a historical Jesus. In fact, just the opposite is true. Check out his book, The Magic of Reality: How We Know What’s Really True. He specifically calls Jesus a mythological god. It is a book written for young people, 12 years old and above, so you probably could understand it too.
What are you afraid of? Jesus being mythical does not invalidate the beauty of his teachings.

 

[John21652]

BOSS10L asked, “- I don’t have links to proof, but it’s long been pointed out that Jesus is nothing more than a literary/astrological hybrid,…

What are you afraid of? Jesus being mythical does not invalidate the beauty of his teachings.

If Jesus was a myth, then the inherent beauty of His teachings would not be lessened, however, they would lose their devine validation.

Of course, that’s what atheists want. While the devine validation of Jesus Christ is around, their world view is on very shaky ground. Hence, atheists need to believe that Jesus was a myth and they have been trying to demonstrate that for centuries.

So, there wasn’t much written about Jesus in the first century, they tell us. Well, considering how so many Christians met gory deaths in those first few centuries, it is hardly suprising that they didn’t rush to print, is it? Until Constantine made Christianity the state religion in around 313 A.D. it was an underground religion. Notwithstanding, St. Paul was a most prolific writer on Jesus and told quite a bit about His birth, life and death. St. Paul’s conversion is well documented and so too are the deaths of the Apostles. It beggars belief that a mythical figure could have so influenced men who were acknowledged as leaders of men.

The atheists like to condemn the Roman historian Josephus and his accounts of Jesus. Strange that he is referenced by historians the world over and accepted as a great historical source - except when it comes to Jesus! He also mentions John the Baptist and that account isn’t questioned either and the vast majority of scholars accept as authentic the story of James, brother of the Christ. The atheists also forget that Origen followed soon after, quoting Josephus and adding veracity to the latter’s written accounts, yet they don’t attack Origen.

So, what is it you atheists are afraid of? The devine validation of the inherent beauty of His teachings?

 

[ASimon]

If Jesus was a myth, then the inherent beauty of His teachings would not be lessened, however, they would lose their devine validation.

Of course, that’s what atheists want. While the devine validation of Jesus Christ is around, their world view is on very shaky ground. Hence, atheists need to believe that Jesus was a myth and they have been trying to demonstrate that for centuries.

I’m an atheist, and I don’t need to believe that Jesus was a myth. It’s quite enough to presume that the figure of Christ as depicted in the Gospels was based on a real human being, if one notably lacking in magic powers.

 

[PRmerger]

Having a god for a father and a mortal woman for a mother is common in mythology. As is having a celestial event at birth. And being born in a cave. And dignitaries recognizing the birth as important

From Peter Kreeft:

Examples…of similar miracles in pagan myths, include multiplying food, turning water into wine, walking on water and raising the dead. These miracles also appear in much myth and fiction.** These similarities do not prove that they do not also occur in reality, any more than the appearance of apples or battles in fiction proves that all apples or battle are fictitious.**–Handbook of Catholic Apologetics

 

[Arizona_Mike]

The fact is; Jesus was not recorded by any historian of the first century. There is an obvious forgery in Josephus; other than that, nothing. Why does it bother you so much that Jesus was the Paul Bunyan of the first century? You can still believe his teachings.

Mike,

Compared to some of the Jewish rebels who mounted actual attempts to challenge the Roman Empire, Jesus’ actions were pretty low key.

Around the time of Jesus’ birth (about 4 BC), Athronges, a Jewish rebel, created a rebel army that was actually able to defeat the Romans in several engagements before his defeat.

Just after Jesus’ death (circa 36 AD), a Samaritan whose name we do not know promised a mystical revelation to his followers and led them to the mountain of Gerizim. The Roman Empire had to disperse them using military force, using infantry and cavalry forces.

About 46 AD, when the Christian movement was beginning to gain steam, Theudas, a Jew who claimed to be a Prophet, led “a great part” of the Jewish people into the desert with a claim that he would part the River Jordan. Again, Roman cavalry had to be used to disperse his movement.

Around the same time, a Jewish wannabe prophet from Egypt led a force of 30,000 men into Jerusalem, and claimed the walls of Jerusalem would fall so he could lead them into the city. Roman troops met them and killed hundreds before the rebel forces were dispersed and the unnamed prophet fled.

Any one of these incidents in 1st century Palestine would have had far more importance to a historian of the times than a non-violent movement led by a Jew from Galilee who was crucified with no resistance, along with two thieves.

NO OTHER CONTEMPORARY HISTORIAN TELLS US ABOUT THESE INCIDENTS EXCEPT JOSEPHUS. Any one of them would be far more important to a historian concerned with threats to the Roman Empire than Jesus. WHY IS THERE NO OTHER MENTION OF THEM BY ANYONE, EXCEPT BY JOSEPHUS? Why would Josephus make these people up?

Because Josephus is considered a generally reliable source (if not the ONLY surviving non-Christian source) on that period. We also have access now to copies of Josephus’s work that are from a non-interpolated source, an Arabic paraphrase of a 10th century copy of Josephus’ original. This text, discovered in 1970 by a Jewish scholar, says that Jesus was believed by his followers to be the Messiah and to have risen from the dead. A Syriac version also quotes the original text as “believed to be the Messiah.” This is powerful evidence, from the best non-Christian source, that Jesus existed and his earliest followers believed him to be the Messiah and to have risen from the dead.

Can you even NAME another historian who discussed any of the events in 1st century Palestine except Josephus, the writers of the New Testament, and the early Church fathers?

Do atheists honestly think that a backwater of the Roman Empire, in a time when literacy was uncommon, and when only the royalty and great military commanders could afford a house historian, was teeming with freelance historians?

Were is the storehouse containing all these records?

No offense, Mike, but even among legitimate classical scholars who are atheists, the “Jesus as Myth” conspiracists are considered as big an embarrassment as 9-11 “Truthers” and those people who think NASA faked the moon landing.

You guys really need to take at least some undergraduate classes in classical history, and to stop trying to learn history from YouTube videos.

ASimon takes a far more reasonable approach for an atheist.

 

[John21652]

I’m an atheist, and I don’t need to believe that Jesus was a myth. It’s quite enough to presume that the figure of Christ as depicted in the Gospels was based on a real human being, if one notably lacking in magic powers.

***If ***lacking in ‘magic powers’?

Obviously you choose not to accept the hisoticity of the Bible. How then do you account for the account given to the Roman Senate by Tacitus of Christ’s execution, burial and resurrection. He even recounted the story of Christ’s execution by Pilate. He was not a Christian. Josephus, another non-Christian, also gave an account. Both gave accounts of other events in the life of Jesus and not from Bibliocal or any other Christian sources. There are even accounts that have come down through Arabic sources that signify the authenticity of the accounts. . There is more evidence than not that Jesus was indeed devine. You fail to do the homework, you just choose to ignore all the available evidence and then have the gall to announce to anyone who will listen that Jesus divinity is a myth. Hubris.