Why? Why must God exist? Honest, even handed questions

[ASimon]

***If ***lacking in ‘magic powers’?

Obviously you choose not to accept the hisoticity of the Bible. How then do you account for the account given to the Roman Senate by Tacitus of Christ’s execution, burial and resurrection. He even recounted the story of Christ’s execution by Pilate. He was not a Christian. Josephus, another non-Christian, also gave an account. Both gave accounts of other events in the life of Jesus and not from Bibliocal or any other Christian sources. There are even accounts that have come down through Arabic sources that signify the authenticity of the accounts. . There is more evidence than not that Jesus was indeed devine. You fail to do the homework, you just choose to ignore all the available evidence and then have the gall to announce to anyone who will listen that Jesus divinity is a myth. Hubris.

Well obviously I don’t accept the historicity of the Bible - I wouldn’t make much of an atheist if I did accept that. As for the rest of it, Josephus wasn’t born until a few years after Christ’s death, and Tacitus not for a couple decades after it. The fact is, there exists no contemporary account of the Christ’s life outside of the Bible. And that’s only if I want to concede that the Gospel writers were themselves eye-witnesses to the event they describe (for this I would have to ignore that they waited for several decades to get their thoughts down on paper).

I have no reason to argue with claims that Jesus actually did exist at one time - that he was amassed a following in the few short years that he preached, and was then murdered by being nailed to a wooden cross as punishment stirring up the rabble. Even if it could all be proven conclusively, none of it would make his paternity divine, or any of his preachings intrinsically wise or moral.

 

[Qoeleth]

In response to the argument about the ‘truth’ about Jesus, the fact is Jesus IS mythical figure- but He is also a historical figure.

I would argue that there is no difference between a ‘historical figure’ (i.e. a figure included in the narrative of history), and a mythical one. A myth is by definition a history (histoire). And history is essentially myth- a narrative which informs/construct our conception of the present. One might argue that the ideas of past and future themselves, as well as ‘reality’ and ‘existence’, are mythemes.

It is time to cast aside narrow rationlistic conceptions of ‘truth’. Logocentrism in all its forms denigrates Truth to a scientific datum.

 

[jochoa]

Okay, I’ve been here for a while and have been wanting to ask some even handed questions to hopefully get some realistic and even handed answers.

Hello my friend! To know, “Why must God exist?” please consider the Wisdom found in 1 Corinthians 13:13:
Douay-Rheims
“And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.”

The reason why the first to remain is faith, which proceeds into hope is because:
We think, therefore we do not know, therefore we have to have faith. Now since you and I must have faith, we might as well place our faith in something greater, something hopeful, namely a Heavenly afterlife.
Now from this point, I know of two perspectives which both lead to Jesus Christ:
2a. One of the greatest hopes in dying is Heaven. In order to recognize a possibility for Heaven existing, one must ponder what was the first thing to exist as a physical substance. There are two options: the first thing had to either be living or non-living. If we assume the first thing is non-living, then all things up to the first life would have been non-living and would have had no ability to create a Heaven. Therefore a greater and more hopeful faith will not only place its trust in a Heaven, but also a single all-powerful God. Two reasons for a single all-powerful God are: 1. If we believe the first thing was living, then all created things following come through that single living being. 2. If we believe the first thing created a Heaven and the living being created other all-powerful Gods, then the other Gods could destroy the Heaven and Earth that was created.
And the reasoning why charity/love is greatest:
2b. Since every person wants and fulfills various wants, we all want happiness. However in order to experience a genuine happiness, there must be peace. And in order to have peace, there must be complete patience, and in order to experience any degree of happiness, there must be kindness. Therefore, it can be said that the greatest actions in living to master are patience and kindness for one will experience an unbreakable peace and perfect happiness. Next recognize that it is the Holy Bible that declares this first, “…the greatest of these is charity/love.” 1 Corinthians 13:13, where charity/love is “patient and kind.” 1 Corinthians 13:4
At this point, one has the option of crediting the Author(s) of the Holy Bible for the revelation of the Truth or one can discredit it. If one credits it, s/he will give all glory to the one God, Jesus Christ, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as well as credit to His Universal Church for overcoming the challenges of spreading the Word. If one discredits it, one will live as though s/he is self-made.

From this point, if one will ponder, talk about, and heavily focus on mastering patience, kindness, and motivation for God with all the body, spirit, thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self, for the sake of greater peace, happiness, and energy for relationships and individually, all other Truths of the Catholic Faith will become evident.

My friend, my prayers are with you for you have had very trying times. Please note that there are several other methods of knowing God, Jesus Christ, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the Truth, and Roman Catholicism is the Fullness of Truth, and I would gladly share my understandings on any questions you have. I will be responding to the other questions as soon as possible for they are excellent questions. And also please note: knowing God exists and who He is Awesome, but using the Sacraments of Catholicism to deepen your levels of patience and kindness is far more Amazing and Rewarding for not only your relationships, including your inner self, as well as for God, and as well as globally, for every act of patience and kindness forces greater peace and happiness in the world.

Thank you very much for sharing your questions and some of your life. I hope my understandings will help you grow in greater faith, and I look forward to further discussion.

Thoughts?

 

[empther]

jochoa,

Quoting the Bible to an atheist is futile. They won’t listen.

I mean,
you can even point out to them that the universe could not have existed through an infinite past, a fact that is irrefutable, and they still won’t believe there had to be a God to start it.

They’ll talk about some nonsense like “non-linear time”. whatever the hell that is, they don’t define it, or like Stephen Hawkins they’ll talk about “imaginary time” ( what the hell is that ? ) again without definining it,
anything but admit there could be a God.

They’re not going to pay any attention to a Bible verse.

 

[jochoa]

My friend, empther,

I appreciate your concern for me using my time as productively as possible, and perhaps you are correct in that some people may simply not listen.

However, I thoroughly enjoy pondering and answering questions. I grow greater in faith, wisdom, hope, and charity, which I am confident is pleasing to God, which in turn increases the level of my peace and happiness. And I really hope they will consider my perspective and share where they recognize flaws in my reasoning, for then I learn areas in which my wisdom is lacking. Then I can develop my wisdom to share a greater understanding on the next person to ask similar questions.

Therefore, I not only pray my understandings may shed some light on how Jesus Christ is God and Roman Catholicism is the Fullness of Truth regarding His Universal Church, I also get to enjoy heavenly living by pondering the Awesomeness of Our God! It’s like a two for one!

I especially enjoy questions from an atheistic perspective for they are the most challenging!

 

[levinas12]

In response to the argument about the ‘truth’ about Jesus, the fact is Jesus IS mythical figure- but He is also a historical figure.

I would argue that there is no difference between a ‘historical figure’ (i.e. a figure included in the narrative of history), and a mythical one. A myth is by definition a history (histoire). And history is essentially myth- a narrative which informs/construct our conception of the present. One might argue that the ideas of past and future themselves, as well as ‘reality’ and ‘existence’, are mythemes.

It is time to cast aside narrow rationlistic conceptions of ‘truth’. Logocentrism in all its forms denigrates Truth to a scientific datum.

But history is usually opposed to myth in the common understanding of those terms. History is what literally happened, in the same ordinary everyday time frame in which, e.g., the bus was late today. Myth is on a totally different level (e.g., Zeus didn’t have a postal address). See William Lynch,S.J. or Mircea Eliade.

I think that there are historical facts behind the New Testament and much of the Old Testament. For example, the Resurrection happened in ordinary everyday time, just like a car crash on the autobahn.

I acknowledge there are patterns in narratives (mythemes). And I agree that the reduction of “truth” protocols to those of the hard sciences derails the train. But we still have to be careful not to undermine truth itself.

Philosophy is the art of making interesting distinctions, e.g., between substance and accident, esse and essentia, form and matter, transcendental and empirical, ontic and ontological, etc.

One of the great philosophical distinctions is that between history and myth. It’s still operative.

Deconstruction is sometimes helpful in clarifying distinctions. But don’t let it run amuck.

 

[empther]

jochoa,

Well that’s fine if you get something positive from it.
Just remember that even the Lord said shake the dust from your sandals and leave that place . :sad_bye:

 

[BOSS10L]

BOSS10L,

A month ago, my sister visited a pet store, and there was a young woman there who had been allowed to set up a table to sell a book she’d written. She asked my sister, “Do you like cats?”

That week the Sunday edition of our local newspaper had a review of this woman and her book. It was about the goings on in a Catholic priests’ rectory as seen through the eyes of the pet cat. ( sounds like a real spine tingler, don’t it? ) The newspaper mentioned the “Publisher”. I looked it up, and the publisher is an “author subsidized publisher”. In other words, this woman had paid this “publisher” to print out X number of books and send them to her. It was then her responsibility to sell the stupid books.

I think this is really sad. Self-publishing is not for me.

Yes, “vanity” presses are becoming more and more prevalent these days. Say what you will, but self-publishing electronically (or publishing electronically through a small house press) is a viable option. You won’t be like the lady at the pet store, and your book(s) will sell on their merits alone, not because you forked out money to have them printed in the first place. Sometimes when there are no doors, we must sneak through a window.

However, another reason for putting my outline on the website is to get movie producers to notice. Getting a book printed is secondary.

empresstheresa.com/chapter_outlines

Just some thoughts: are there not any Christian presses out there that might be contacted? Perhaps one of the reasons that agents have been non-receptive is the obvious religious themes of the book? I can’t say if that’s something they’ve been avoiding these days or not.

 

[empther]

Just some thoughts: are there not any Christian presses out there that might be contacted? Perhaps one of the reasons that agents have been non-receptive is the obvious religious themes of the book? I can’t say if that’s something they’ve been avoiding these days or not.

There are Christian presses out there and maybe I’ll get around to them this year or next.
However,
they might think my story isn’t Christian enough.

The truth is, my book has no religious dogma in it. It’s mentioned a couple of times that Theresa is Catholic, which shouldn’t be surprising since she’s from the Boston area, but that’s as far as the book goes discussing religion. Well, readers will want to know her background!
Theresa herself never mentions God or Catholics, except once when she protests “I’m not God.”

You may recall the 1950 movie “The Robe”, Richard Burton, etc. It was based on the book published by a Methodist minister during WWII. I read the book and was disappointed It did not have the exciting scene in Caligula’s throne room that made the movie so good. The slave was not captured by Caligula and rescued from the palace dungeon. There were plenty of long so-so scenes the movie wisely skipped.
The book was full of proselytysing about Jesus, what he said and did. That was the book’s purpose. That’s all right, I guess, but I prefer Acquinas. The book was number one on the New York Times bestseller list,
for nine months !!! I think people in the Bible Belt were buying it, but probably nobody else. .

Empress Theresa’s purpose is to show what a decent girl with a good heart can do when given the opportunity. That’s all.

Having her being a Catholic gives the evacuation of Israel situation special poignancy. Theresa has no connections to Judaism but knocks herself out helping the Jews. If Theresa were Jewish it wouldn’t be as effective. Well, what would you expect?

( When Theresa meets Israeli Prime Minister Sherzer in London, Sherzer doesn’t have to ask her for anything. She and Steve have already decided what to do about Israel, and their plan is so perfect Scherzer accepts it without reservation. )

She also risks her neck to go into North Korea and liberate the people there. No mention of religion… Do they have any?

However, there are 1,150,000,000 Catholics in the world.

 

[BOSS10L]

Well, it seems I’ve given it an honest shot, and I just can’t do it. There are far too many questions left unanswered (or answered unsatisfactorily) for me to make that leap. Besides, even if I were able to make that leap, there are some things that I could never reconcile with myself and the teachings of the church:

• That homosexuality is wrong and that same-sex marriage should be outlawed
• That religion has any place in the crafting of public policy or laws
• That this country was founded as a Christian nation
• That evolution is not true
• That the Bible is 100% true
• That religions and churches should have tax-free status

I still respect that other have faith, but it is something I don’t think I can ever truly have.

 

[BOSS10L]

I am trying to hold my self back. But I am not sure how much longer I can stop my self from intellectually humiliating the atheists on this thread.

For what it’s worth, I’ve been perusing some of your “hypothetical” threads. You’re a wackjob who’s got no business calling anyone else out.

Aliens testing us about shooting babies or extinction? C’mon, what are you, 12? Still living in mom & dad’s basement, pining away for the day that you’ll finally be able to kiss a girl? Grow up.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

For what it’s worth, I’ve been perusing some of your “hypothetical” threads. You’re a wackjob who’s got no business calling anyone else out.

Aliens testing us about shooting babies or extinction? C’mon, what are you, 12? Still living in mom & dad’s basement, pining away for the day that you’ll finally be able to kiss a girl? Grow up.

Your Ad hominem attack will not change the fact or save you from the reality that you are dishonest and irrational. And now that you have posted this junk you have proven yourself to be an arsehole too. I find it hilarious and pathetic that you are insulting me based on a hypothetical thread i made. Haven’t you heard of a little thing called “having fun” with philosophy. Of course not, since you cannot do philosophy much less have fun with it. And how long did it take for you to think of a come back?

Are you really that much of a loser? Haven’t you got better things to do than put down the way people choose to present a particular moral situation?

Your atheism is irrational regardless of how you judge my creativity. Deal with it and Get a life.

 

[Poof]

For what it’s worth, I’ve been perusing some of your “hypothetical” threads. You’re a wackjob who’s got no business calling anyone else out.

Aliens testing us about shooting babies or extinction? C’mon, what are you, 12? Still living in mom & dad’s basement, pining away for the day that you’ll finally be able to kiss a girl? Grow up.

Look, I get your frustration with Mind’s provocative post but your reply was unreasonably harsh and uncharitable. I’ve seen several of Mind’s posts he’s no where close to being a “wackjob” as you say!

He made a bold statement but he has the brains to back it up. If you get all pissy over statements like those, then this forum isn’t for you.

 

[christosdavid]

A very readable and comprehensive “proof” that Jesus was/is a mythical god is found in The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy. It is available in most secular libraries.
But one can figure it out independently. Having a god for a father and a mortal woman for a mother is common in mythology. As is having a celestial event at birth. And being born in a cave. And dignitaries recognizing the birth as important. In fact, the whole of the gospels is a play about the fulfillment of myths. The human sacrifice for redemption, the scapegoat myth, the dying and reappearing after 3 days; all common myths, long before Jesus. The sun standing still at the crucifixion, the dead of Jerusalem walking around, all would have been recorded by historians.
And Herod killing all the little boys is the same myth as Moses being floated down the Nile in a basket. It didn’t happen in reality. Historians of the day absolutely would have recorded that if it was a historic fact.
I thought being a Christian was believing in the morality of the teachings of Jesus, and about trying to live life as did Jesus? One can recognize that Jesus was mythical and still do that.

The existence of Jesus ought to be undeniable, At the highest academic levels there have been 3 quests for the historic Jesus starting with Albert Schweitzer (1901); Rudolf Bultmann (1950); and most recently Saunders (1970) and Dunn (2000) the prevailing view is if that you dont believe in the man jesus at all then you probably have an agenda because the quest has reached minutiae as to how precisely can we know what he said and how he acted.

Jesus is the most famous and best well known historic figure of any period of human history.

 

[John21652]

Well obviously I don’t accept the historicity of the Bible - I wouldn’t make much of an atheist if I did accept that. As for the rest of it, Josephus wasn’t born until a few years after Christ’s death, and Tacitus not for a couple decades after it. The fact is, there exists no contemporary account of the Christ’s life outside of the Bible. And that’s only if I want to concede that the Gospel writers were themselves eye-witnesses to the event they describe (for this I would have to ignore that they waited for several decades to get their thoughts down on paper).

Doesn’t it even intrigue you that the Bible was written over a period of around 1500 years, by probably around 40 different writers and yet its message is so consistent? Doesn’t it even intrigue you that even the most strident critics of Christianity in the first few years after Christ never once tried to refute jesus’s existence, or the fact that he worked miracles, or that He rose from the dead? Celsus in the second century, Porphyry from about the same time and then the Emperor Julian in the fourth, were strident critics of Christianity, yet only in so far as they turned their backs on the traditional gods and on the beliefs of their forefathers. Porphry was particularly vile and hostile, in his heavy use of sarcasm. Even he allowed that Christ performed miracles. Obviously, it was pretty general knowledge who and what Christ was.

There is far more eveidence that the Bible is historically accurate and that jesus was who His followers said he was, than there is evidence of Hannibal crossing the Alps with elephants, or that the tale of troy was true. Of course, accepting the authenticity of the Bible and Christ would shatter the world views of those who are so closed minded and refuse to see and of that, i think, they are most frightened.

I have no reason to argue with claims that Jesus actually did exist at one time - that he was amassed a following in the few short years that he preached, and was then murdered by being nailed to a wooden cross as punishment stirring up the rabble. Even if it could all be proven conclusively, none of it would make his paternity divine, or any of his preachings intrinsically wise or moral.

Men died for their belief in Him. Men travelled across the known world teaching what christ had taught them. He influenced the entire Roman Empire and yet you dismiss His impact as being a fairy tale. You admit to only believing that part of the story which you want to accept and then you blind yourself to the rest of it. Why is that?

The Roman historian Tacitus during the reign of Nero, wrote: “But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also” I bet he never got that story from the Bible, even though it’s in it!

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Look, I get your frustration with Mind’s provocative post but your reply was unreasonably harsh and uncharitable. I’ve seen several of Mind’s posts he’s no where close to being a “wackjob” as you say!

He made a bold statement but he has the brains to back it up. If you get all pissy over statements like those, then this forum isn’t for you.

Thank you for your defense. I apologize for being uncharitable. Post 91 was not very charitable.

Godbless.

 

[jochoa]

Well, it seems I’ve given it an honest shot, and I just can’t do it. There are far too many questions left unanswered (or answered unsatisfactorily) for me to make that leap. Besides, even if I were able to make that leap, there are some things that I could never reconcile with myself and the teachings of the church:

• That homosexuality is wrong and that same-sex marriage should be outlawed
• That religion has any place in the crafting of public policy or laws
• That this country was founded as a Christian nation
• That evolution is not true
• That the Bible is 100% true
• That religions and churches should have tax-free status

I still respect that other have faith, but it is something I don’t think I can ever truly have.

My friend, please note that I came from a similar mindset as you, although not as developed. I was raised Catholic, I had a falling from the Church in my early 20’s to the point of agnosticism, then I found my way back home, through the studies of Atheism/Scientology, to Agnosticism/Hinduism, to Pantheism/Buddhism, to Orthodox/Judaism, to Polytheism/Protestantism, to Catholicism, and to Roman Catholicism. to the point of knowing Jesus Christ and His Universal Church are Absolute Truth. However, the main method of knowing came from the study and practice of achieving greater peace, happiness, and energy in my life and relationships. So, I recommend doing the same. Resolve to formulate what is required for every individual and relationship of your family to experience an unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy given the natural free will and ignorance of human nature. I assure that when you formulate the rules for such a society to exist, you will be in alignment with the way God Loves. Please know that I still have quite a ways to go, but with every step closer I get, my relationships and I gain greater peace, happiness, and energy.

Thoughts?

 

[ASimon]

Doesn’t it even intrigue you that the Bible was written over a period of around 1500 years, by probably around 40 different writers and yet its message is so consistent?

I don’t find it particularly consistent at all.

Doesn’t it even intrigue you that even the most strident critics of Christianity in the first few years after Christ never once tried to refute jesus’s existence, or the fact that he worked miracles, or that He rose from the dead? Celsus in the second century, Porphyry from about the same time and then the Emperor Julian in the fourth, were strident critics of Christianity, yet only in so far as they turned their backs on the traditional gods and on the beliefs of their forefathers. Porphry was particularly vile and hostile, in his heavy use of sarcasm. Even he allowed that Christ performed miracles. Obviously, it was pretty general knowledge who and what Christ was.

I have good reason to dismiss these points out of hand. Does it make any sense to you that these people would go to such lengths to criticize Christianity, not being Christians themselves, but in the next breath, concede that Jesus was still a living God with divine powers? It’s funny that you accuse atheists of hubris - all we’re doing is dismissing the divine stature of Jesus. These critics you mentioned (according to you) believed everything that Jesus was purported to be, and STILL reject him. That’s some real hubris.

As it turns out, I did a quick check on the three names you mentioned. And it turns out that none of them accept Jesus as having divine stature. Celsus in particular explicitly rejected both the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection.

Men died for their belief in Him. Men travelled across the known world teaching what christ had taught them. He influenced the entire Roman Empire and yet you dismiss His impact as being a fairy tale. You admit to only believing that part of the story which you want to accept and then you blind yourself to the rest of it. Why is that?

It’s not that I only believe the bits I want to accept. It’s not a matter of want. I’m only willing to accept the bits that are halfway plausible. And if I really believed that the complete figure of Christ was a whole-cloth fabrication, invented by ignorant, sheep-herding peasants some twenty centuries ago, I’d say so and be done with it. But all honestly, I’m happy to concede I think there’s probably some truth to his existence.

By the way, Muslim fundamentalists have long been demonstrating their willingness to die for their beliefs. As I’m sure you’ll admit, this is no compelling argument for the truth value of their particular claims. It just makes them strongly convicted idiots.

 

[BOSS10L]

Your Ad hominem attack will not change the fact or save you from the reality that you are dishonest and irrational. And now that you have posted this junk you have proven yourself to be an arsehole too. I find it hilarious and pathetic that you are insulting me based on a hypothetical thread i made. Haven’t you heard of a little thing called “having fun” with philosophy. Of course not, since you cannot do philosophy much less have fun with it. And how long did it take for you to think of a come back?

Are you really that much of a loser? Haven’t you got better things to do than put down the way people choose to present a particular moral situation?

Your atheism is irrational regardless of how you judge my creativity. Deal with it and Get a life.

If “having fun with philosophy” entails discussions about killing babies or suicide, then I guess you can call me a stick in the mud.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

If “having fun with philosophy” entails discussions about killing babies or suicide, then I guess you can call me a stick in the mud.

Whatever.