Why wives?

[Lea101]

Note: This is definitely not a reiteration of a previous thread I started. And please, let’s not get so heated!

Okay. So got back from a wedding mass. Couple chose the famous “women submit, men love” passage. I have wondered about this before, and whilst I didn’t get a clear answer, I kind of shrug it off, and came to the (childish) conclusion that God do tend to favour men over women in some ways (not in terms of dignity/worth). And that I should just leave it because he’s God.

But my sister was shocked at it (she is 11). I was hoping the priest address it during his homily, but nope. Anyway, she turned to my dad and asked “why must girls listen to boys, that’s not fair. Why not boys?”. Sadly my father told her “Because God says so”. She then asked me, and obviously I’m not going to tell her what I think, so I just told her that if it was the other way around, boys will ask the same question. She kind of accepted it but she is still annoyed, and is ranting towards my older brother as I type this.

She is just 11 but she is already kind of upset with the Church (modesty-she is curvy and feels ashamed of it-and same sex marriage). I’m way too scared to give her another reason lol…

I would prefer to explain this to her when she is older but feels like I need to give her a good reason. Explanations I come across are always sugar coated or weird (and clearly the poster’s opinion). I wasn’t satisfied with the answers, but I want her to.

Just want to see if there is a “friendly” but TRUE explanation that will shut her cute mouth of hers? If not, then I’ll guess we’ll try to ignore this until she gets horrified over nutella or something so she’ll forget this.

 

[LightBound]

Note: This is definitely not a reiteration of a previous thread I started. And please, let’s not get so heated!

Okay. So got back from a wedding mass. Couple chose the famous “women submit, men love” passage. I have wondered about this before, and whilst I didn’t get a clear answer, I kind of shrug it off, and came to the (childish) conclusion that God do tend to favour men over women in some ways (not in terms of dignity/worth). And that I should just leave it because he’s God.

But my sister was shocked at it (she is 11). I was hoping the priest address it during his homily, but nope. Anyway, she turned to my dad and asked “why must girls listen to boys, that’s not fair. Why not boys?”. Sadly my father told her “Because God says so”. She then asked me, and obviously I’m not going to tell her what I think, so I just told her that if it was the other way around, boys will ask the same question. She kind of accepted it but she is still annoyed, and is ranting towards my older brother as I type this.

She is just 11 but she is already kind of upset with the Church (modesty-she is curvy and feels ashamed of it-and same sex marriage). I’m way too scared to give her another reason lol…

I would prefer to explain this to her when she is older but feels like I need to give her a good reason. Explanations I come across are always sugar coated or weird (and clearly the poster’s opinion). I wasn’t satisfied with the answers, but I want her to.

Just want to see if there is a “friendly” but TRUE explanation that will shut her cute mouth of hers? If not, then I’ll guess we’ll try to ignore this until she gets horrified over nutella or something so she’ll forget this.

This will get turned into a massive debate, as threads on submission, modesty, headcoverings and the boy wizard always do, but tell you sister that “girls do not have to listen to boys” and let her know that women are not to be submissive to men. No where in the Bible does it say that. What St Paul talks about is a structure in marriage- the husband is the head of the family and is responsible for its well-being. The wife is advised to follow the husband in his mission to get the family to heaven. If the husband is doing something contrary to getting the family to heaven or something that doesn’t uphold the wife’s dignity, she is not obligated to follow him, as he’s being foolish and not following God. Most functional marriages work as a partnership, keep that in mind in today’s world, as St Paul was writing in a different time and culture. Again, it’s not girls listening to boys or women obeying men, but a husband**** making the best decisions (with his wife’s (name removed by moderator)ut) for their family on major matters. When the couple you mentioned chose that particular verse, the bride was letting her husband and guests know that she**** chose a wise husband that she trusts. Make sure your little sister knows that when she starts dating someone with the intent on marrying them, that she chooses a man that she trusts to lead her and future children to heaven, that he trusts her wisdom and upholds her dignity as an intelligent woman capable of making important decisions when needed, and that they generally agree on most things. Otherwise, it’s easy to see why this verse is upsetting if one has chosen a man who is a domineering jerk. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[Rosebud77]

 

[Lea101]

Ssh!

 

[Lea101]

This will get turned into a massive debate, as threads on submission, modesty, headcoverings and the boy wizard always do, but tell you sister that “girls do not have to listen to boys” and let her know that women are not to be submissive to men. No where in the Bible does it say that. What St Paul talks about is a structure in marriage- the husband is the head of the family and is responsible for its well-being. The wife is advised to follow the husband in his mission to get the family to heaven. If the husband is doing something contrary to getting the family to heaven or something that doesn’t uphold the wife’s dignity, she is not obligated to follow him, as he’s being foolish and not following God. Most functional marriages work as a partnership, keep that in mind in today’s world, as St Paul was writing in a different time and culture. Again, it’s not girls listening to boys or women obeying men, but a husband**** making the best decisions (with his wife’s (name removed by moderator)ut) for their family on major matters. When the couple you mentioned chose that particular verse, the bride was letting her husband and guests know that she**** chose a wise husband that she trusts. Make sure your little sister knows that when she starts dating someone with the intent on marrying them, that she chooses a man that she trusts to lead her and future children to heaven, that he trusts her wisdom and upholds her dignity as an intelligent woman capable of making important decisions when needed, and that they generally agree on most things. Otherwise, it’s easy to see why this verse is upsetting if one has chosen a man who is a domineering jerk. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Thanks for your reply

I’m not too focused on what it is meant by submit…everyone has their interpretation on it plus “in everything” in the verse makes it difficult too…

Her concern was more of “why girls, not boys”. So basically “why can’t girls be the leader instead”. Which is why I told her that if that happens, boys will ask the same thing. And this won’t end

Is there even a reason why wives aren’t the head? I would understand it in the past, because of children and all…but society has definitely come a long way(advancements in healthcare and technology)…women have proven to be just as capable as men in almost every aspect (besides biological ones)…so it does get confusing even to me, because God surely knows that this will happen. Which is why I just accepted the conclusion I came to. It’s something i personally struggle with, given my previous threads + being female

Just don’t want her to believe what I believe. She’s already quite resentful, and she’s soo young.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Okay. So got back from a wedding mass. Couple chose the famous “women submit, men love” passage. I have wondered about this before, and whilst I didn’t get a clear answer, I kind of shrug it off, and came to the (childish) conclusion that God do tend to favour men over women in some ways (not in terms of dignity/worth). And that I should just leave it because he’s God.

That is a secular view. God did not favour men, he creates both in His image. Perhaps you could read the rest of the passage where men are suppose to love the wives the way Jesus loved the church. Jesus died on a cross for His church and He expects men to do the same for their wives. You don’t see men complain about that

But my sister was shocked at it (she is 11). I was hoping the priest address it during his homily, but nope.

Well… the priest main concern was the couple being married not your sister

Anyway, she turned to my dad and asked “why must girls listen to boys, that’s not fair. Why not boys?”. Sadly my father told her “Because God says so”.

In the middle of a wedding ceremony is NOT the time for a heart to heart talk. Your dad probably just wanted to smooth over the situation ASAP. I do think however it is sad that your dad does not at a later time have a good discussion with your sister

She then asked me, and obviously I’m not going to tell her what I think, so I just told her that if it was the other way around, boys will ask the same question. She kind of accepted it but she is still annoyed, and is ranting towards my older brother as I type this.

Well… if your behavior is to just give her an answer to ‘shut her up’ of course she is going to be upset. She is sensing no one is taking her seriously

She is just 11 but she is already kind of upset with the Church (modesty-she is curvy and feels ashamed of it-and same sex marriage). I’m way too scared to give her another reason lol…

huh? Why are you concentrating on hiding the church teachings. Instead of giving her reasons to hate the church, give her reasons to love it. Show her that God understands her hurt feelings. Show her to pray to God about it. While you two are alone, pray with her. Cross yourself and say out loud ‘Dear God, I want to follow your ways, but it just seems like you created rules that are unfair to women, please show me what I am misunderstanding and help me see Your ways.’ Keep doing that faithfully in front of her. Who knows, your sister might actually see a loving God that answers prayers

I would prefer to explain this to her when she is older but feels like I need to give her a good reason. .

No, you do NOT need to give her a good reason. That is God’s job. Show her how to be open to his word and how to keep her heart open to Him so He can comfort her

Just want to see if there is a “friendly” but TRUE explanation that will shut her cute mouth of hers? If not, then I’ll guess we’ll try to ignore this until she gets horrified over nutella or something so she’ll forget this.

Again, disrespect to your sister ie ‘shut her mouth’ is not showing her God’s word. And again, there is no TRUE explanation that will make her happy. God gave her free will and she can choose to accept His teachings of reject them and ‘logical’ arguments are useless. Again, just be an example of opening your heart to Him

Angie

 

[starshiptrooper]

Before we get started, does anyone want to get out?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Before we get started, does anyone want to get out?

Yes. I want out, don’t even want to post on here. But here was the “click bait” for me… How in the world does an 11 year old have an anti church view of same sex Issues!? Where is she getting that from and if the answer is school. Yikes! And the modesty thing as well. “Curvy” at 11? Yes some girls develop at different ages here but for a girl to be thinking in terms of curvy and questioning modest dress at 11!? 11 year old girls don’t normally have an idea of how to show thier sexuality.

Ps. What a shame the father in this post couldn’t have come up with a better answer, what a missed opportunity!

 

[nodito]

Her concern was more of “why girls, not boys”. So basically “why can’t girls be the leader instead”. Which is why I told her that if that happens, boys will ask the same thing. And this won’t end

Is there even a reason why wives aren’t the head? I would understand it in the past, because of children and all…but society has definitely come a long way(advancements in healthcare and technology)…women have proven to be just as capable as men in almost every aspect (besides biological ones)…so it does get confusing even to me, because God surely knows that this will happen. Which is why I just accepted the conclusion I came to. It’s something i personally struggle with, given my previous threads + being female

Just don’t want her to believe what I believe. She’s already quite resentful, and she’s soo young.

Our culture has done a disservice to young people by inculcating the belief that men and women are mostly interchangeable. This is part of the reason why we as a culture accept same sex marriage, contraception, etc. I know it’s completely un-pc to say so, but although equal and both made in God’s image and likeness, women and men were given different gifts and roles.

One of the ways that we can see this most clearly is in the biological reality of motherhood. (There will come a day when even this is blurred as artificial wombs are created and sex-change operations become more advanced. For now, I’ll assume that your sister can understand basic reproduction). Despite what some feminists would have you believe, it is a real gift to be able to conceive and bear children. As a mom of three I can say without reserve that it has been a huge blessing to me to be able to nurse my babies to sleep, soothe them when they’re fussy, keep them calm and occupied and relaxed while only having to sit and breastfeed and getting to read or watch TV all the while instead of having to do all the bouncing/walking/rocking that is required of my husband when he needs to calm a crying baby. There is something really beautiful about holding a little baby and watching her nurse and pat you and look up with a sleepy, milky grin. Women were given this gift, and not men. Why? How is it fair to men to not be able to nurse or give birth? In all the clamor for free contraception, we forget (or maybe don’t learn in the first place) that having children is a privilege that is given ONLY to women, and not to men.

Does it mean that God loves men less, that he doesn’t bless them with these abilities? Of course not. It’s just that masculinity and femininity are different and come with different gifts and privileges and saying that men are the head does not negate the value of the rest of the body. In 1 Corinthians 12 we learn there is one body, but many parts. How could a body survive without his heart or his lungs? Likewise, how could there be a marriage with two heads or no heart? How does it demean women to assign one role to the man and a different to the woman?

 

[Lea101]

Yes. I want out, don’t even want to post on here. But here was the “click bait” for me… How in the world does an 11 year old have an anti church view of same sex Issues!? Where is she getting that from and if the answer is school. Yikes! And the modesty thing as well. “Curvy” at 11? Yes some girls develop at different ages here but for a girl to be thinking in terms of curvy and questioning modest dress at 11!? 11 year old girls don’t normally have an idea of how to show thier sexuality.

Ps. What a shame the father in this post couldn’t have come up with a better answer, what a missed opportunity!

She’s from a Catholic girls’ school! I don’t know where she got the same sex issues from…school don’t mention stuff like that. Not even the non catholic ones. She did say she felt sorry for them and it’s unfair for us to say no to them getting married. But I’m actually not too worried about that. Should I be? She’s 11…and does look things at a surface level. I only ‘got’ the teachings on marriage quite recently…sadly…

My dad isn’t really a greeeaaat father. He does try sometimes…but really…it’s sad when my sister wears a top and my dad freaks out and tells her that her body isn’t meant for that, that she needs to wear baggier clothing so her hourglass figure won’t be too obvious. She’s definitely self conscious of her clothes thanks to him. She does make comments like how she wants a smaller bust size…like me (LOL because it sounds like an insult towards me)

And to your last sentence…yup…my dad is one of those people that tells people to just “listen to God, have child like faith, don’t question anything”. I roughly understand him, but then again, he missed out on a lot of opportunities to teach us stuff I do feel annoyed bc it always has been up to me to teach her stuff. About religion, school, etc. I’m trying to figure things out for myself!

 

[Lea101]

Before we get started, does anyone want to get out?

Honey, I only want Catholic teachings, if you are going to get started!

 

[bitterhope]

Our culture has done a disservice to young people by inculcating the belief that men and women are mostly interchangeable. This is part of the reason why we as a culture accept same sex marriage, contraception, etc. I know it’s completely un-pc to say so, but although equal and both made in God’s image and likeness, women and men were given different gifts and roles.

One of the ways that we can see this most clearly is in the biological reality of motherhood. (There will come a day when even this is blurred as artificial wombs are created and sex-change operations become more advanced. For now, I’ll assume that your sister can understand basic reproduction). Despite what some feminists would have you believe, it is a real gift to be able to conceive and bear children. As a mom of three I can say without reserve that it has been a huge blessing to me to be able to nurse my babies to sleep, soothe them when they’re fussy, keep them calm and occupied and relaxed while only having to sit and breastfeed and getting to read or watch TV all the while instead of having to do all the bouncing/walking/rocking that is required of my husband when he needs to calm a crying baby. There is something really beautiful about holding a little baby and watching her nurse and pat you and look up with a sleepy, milky grin. Women were given this gift, and not men. Why? How is it fair to men to not be able to nurse or give birth? In all the clamor for free contraception, we forget (or maybe don’t learn in the first place) that having children is a privilege that is given ONLY to women, and not to men.

Does it mean that God loves men less, that he doesn’t bless them with these abilities? Of course not. It’s just that masculinity and femininity are different and come with different gifts and privileges and saying that men are the head does not negate the value of the rest of the body. In 1 Corinthians 12 we learn there is one body, but many parts. How could a body survive without his heart or his lungs? Likewise, how could there be a marriage with two heads or no heart? How does it demean women to assign one role to the man and a different to the woman?

Beautiful!

 

[Della]

The “wives submit to your husbands” and “husbands love your wives” verses balance each other. St. Paul was talking about couples being under authority in Christ, not who is better than who. As you cited, men and women are equal in dignity with one another.

The passage begins at verse 21, in which St. Paul tells us to be “Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ” and ends at verse 33 in which he talks about Christ’s authority within the family in which men are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church–sacrificially, and women are to respect their husbands.

At 11 she cannot possibly understand the dynamics of a husband/wife complimenting one another. It’s not about one person lording over another. When a wife “submits” to her husband she is giving him permission to be the final decision maker–not that he can tell her what to do and boss her around. And men should put their wives and children ahead of themselves instead of acting out of selfishness. It’s a balancing act between opposite sexes. I’m sorry I can’t put it in simpler terms for an 11 year old, but I’m no used to explaining things to children.

As to same sex “marriage” she needs to understand that men and women have babies with one another–it’s what makes a family a family. Men cannot have babies with other men nor women with other women. Now, people can adopt children, that’s a given, but same sex people cannot produce children. Marriage is not defined by who loves who and how the love each other. Marriage creates a family in which a man and a woman may have children. It’s as simple as that.

 

[Lea101]

Thanks for the replies.

But if I can bring up something-not all wives can be mothers…so they don’t technically have the privilege of nursing a child and so on.

Yeah I hate to be that kind of person, but I just get :// when womanhood revolves around babies. They are awesome, and assuming that I’m fertile, would want to have a child in the future. I’m not against that at all

 

[starshiptrooper]

Honey, I only want Catholic teachings, if you are going to get started!

I am only here to watch the fun. I already earned my patriarchy card.

 

[Della]

Thanks for the replies.

But if I can bring up something-not all wives can be mothers…so they don’t technically have the privilege of nursing a child and so on.

Yeah I hate to be that kind of person, but I just get :// when womanhood revolves around babies. They are awesome, and assuming that I’m fertile, would want to have a child in the future. I’m not against that at all

My dh and I have been married for 33 years this month. I mention this just to show that I have some experience of marriage. And I agree that motherhood will not happen to all married women–we couldn’t have children but we are definitely in a traditional marriage in which, if we could have had children, we probably would have had them.

What I think the poster was driving at is that women share in God’s power to create by having children, as do men whose part in child-bearing is very important, but in which women do the “heavy work.” This automatically puts women in the position of needing someone who can support them during pregnancy, and who better than their husbands? Does that make sense?

Anyway, the main thing we need to keep in mind about husband/wife relationships is that they are complimentary, not one person trying to get and keep power over another. The world runs everything according to who has the most power–it’s why many people falsely interpret Paul’s words as saying that men have power over women. It’s not that at all. Rather, it’s men under Christ 's authority exercising their duty to love their wives in humility and love. Jesus commanded all to submit to one another in love. It’s an authority based in love not on who has the greatest power.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes. I want out, don’t even want to post on here. But here was the “click bait” for me… How in the world does an 11 year old have an anti church view of same sex Issues!? Where is she getting that from and if the answer is school. Yikes! And the modesty thing as well. “Curvy” at 11? Yes some girls develop at different ages here but for a girl to be thinking in terms of curvy and questioning modest dress at 11!? 11 year old girls don’t normally have an idea of how to show thier sexuality.

Ps. What a shame the father in this post couldn’t have come up with a better answer, what a missed opportunity!

Yes.
I take it there is no religious ed in Singapore?
It would be good for every child to have an opportunity for proper catechesis.
I’m out.
I agree that dad likely wanted to quiet a disruptive child in the pew. But that shouldn’t prevent him from explaining at a later time, more suitable.

CYA

 

[anilorak13ska]

Thanks for the replies.

But if I can bring up something-not all wives can be mothers…so they don’t technically have the privilege of nursing a child and so on.

Yeah I hate to be that kind of person, but I just get :// when womanhood revolves around babies. They are awesome, and assuming that I’m fertile, would want to have a child in the future. I’m not against that at all

This was me. First, I was your sister for a long time, self-proclaimed feminist, upset about sexist language in the Bible and Church etc. I went out of my way for my own wedding to avoid the phrase “man and wife” by being able to have a multilingual Mass, and then realized that the part about accepting children as a gift from God, which was said in Spanish, used the masculine pronoun for children (doh!). Looks like God has a sense of humor.

Second, my husband and I struggled with severe infertility for a decade before we were finally blessed with our children, so I am very invested in what you bring up. I never did understand what good it did for me to have a vocation to marriage - and by extension to be submissive to my husband - if I didn’t get any of the benefits of motherhood to balance it all out.

I can’t say that I have all the answers. I think this is something that each individual has to make sense of for themselves. But I get the urgency of trying to keep your sister from leaving the Church if she spends her adolesence with unanswered questions. As soon as she’s off to college, she may never step foot in a Catholic church again, according to statistics. So I do appreciate that you’re trying to avoid that somehow.

May I ask how old you are? My siblings are ten and eleven years younger than me, so I suspect we may have a similar type of relationship with them.They think of me as an aunt more than an older sister. For better or for worse. I joined the Army at 19, so I wasn’t around as much during their adolescence. I did sponsor my brother for his confirmation when he was in high school, but alas, neither of my siblings are really practicing Catholics. I only share this to note that I can appreciate your interest in trying to keep your little sister in the Faith.

I think you’ve gotten some really good, solid explanations as to the reasons for the specific submission question, but again, that may not be what will help your sister at this point in her spiritual journey. I would try to focus on her/your relationship with God, rather than on a more academic understanding of Church teaching. That’s where I went wrong, thinking I had to “make sense” of everything first, before I could really start following Jesus.

There are things we can say and do that don’t seem to resonate with someone but will linger and germinate in their subconscience for years, finally being used by the Holy Spirit when the time is right. So don’t focus so much on the results (your sister no longer questions Church teaching), but rather on modeling a holy Catholic Christian spirituality, and trust God to do the rest.

 

[Lorelei12]

Note: This is definitely not a reiteration of a previous thread I started. And please, let’s not get so heated!

Okay. So got back from a wedding mass. Couple chose the famous “women submit, men love” passage. I have wondered about this before, and whilst I didn’t get a clear answer, I kind of shrug it off, and came to the (childish) conclusion that God do tend to favour men over women in some ways (not in terms of dignity/worth). And that I should just leave it because he’s God.

But my sister was shocked at it (she is 11). I was hoping the priest address it during his homily, but nope. Anyway, she turned to my dad and asked “why must girls listen to boys, that’s not fair. Why not boys?”. Sadly my father told her “Because God says so”. She then asked me, and obviously I’m not going to tell her what I think, so I just told her that if it was the other way around, boys will ask the same question. She kind of accepted it but she is still annoyed, and is ranting towards my older brother as I type this.

She is just 11 but she is already kind of upset with the Church (modesty-she is curvy and feels ashamed of it-and same sex marriage). I’m way too scared to give her another reason lol…

I would prefer to explain this to her when she is older but feels like I need to give her a good reason. Explanations I come across are always sugar coated or weird (and clearly the poster’s opinion). I wasn’t satisfied with the answers, but I want her to.

Just want to see if there is a “friendly” but TRUE explanation that will shut her cute mouth of hers? If not, then I’ll guess we’ll try to ignore this until she gets horrified over nutella or something so she’ll forget this.

I can’t imagine that it would be possible for an 11-year old girl to understand the dynamic between married couples or what it means to “submit”. What is concerning though, is that she seems to be under the impression that, as a girl, she should listen to boys outside of the context of marriage (unless she meant “boy” as a stand in for “husband”). I would explain to her that this is not what the passage means, that it specifically refers to married couples and that married people have a special relationship where the husband is also called to sacrifice. I would also be very clear that she does not have to listen to any of her peers who are boys.

 

[Lea101]

Yes.
I take it there is no religious ed in Singapore?
It would be good for every child to have an opportunity for proper catechesis.
I’m out.
I agree that dad likely wanted to quiet a disruptive child in the pew. But that shouldn’t prevent him from explaining at a later time, more suitable.

CYA

She goes for classes every sunday. They just don’t cover much. They go through the gospel and that’s it.