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LDNCatholic
Guest
You aren’t Jewish or Catholic. You called us the anti Christ in another thread.
Why won’t all other Christians recognize the Roman Catholic Pope as their leader?
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brkn1
Guest
There is a difference in the eternal once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus and the former earthly priesthood, which were but a shadow of Jesus’ one sacrifice.
The earthly priests had to continually offer sacrifices according to the law given to Moses by God.
But Christ’s sacrifice is different in that it is the fulfillment of all those sacrifices which were performed before His once-for-all sacrifice on the cross.
As our High Priest in Heaven, Christ “is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with the blood of others;
For then must he have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And as it is appointed men once to die, but after this the judgement:
So Christ was ONCE offered to bear the sins of many; …” (Hebrews 9:24-28)
Christ’s death was necessary to purge our sins. God has no other way for us to be redeemed. Christ took our deserved penalty for sins and died ONCE to pay for those sins in a single perfect and complete sacrifice of Himself as the Lamb of God.
The RCC claims to have another way that our sins are purged, which is the Eucharist. It is not the same method as the New Testament and the Old Testament require. The death of the sacrifice is necessary to purge sins according to the Law of God.
Jesus suffered and died only once.
If the RCC were correct, Jesus would have said “Do this for the remission of sins.”, instead of His:“This do in remembrance of me.”.
“Remission of sins” is way too important of a detail to leave out of the command, if that was what Jesus was instituting at the Lord’s Supper.
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Jon_S
Guest
Brkn1,
You still need to answer the question I posed about 1 Peter 2:5.
The Catholic Church fully agrees that Christ’s sacrifice was once for all, but Scripture clearly indicates that we are to take part in that one eternal sacrifice.
1 Peter 2:5 indicates that we are to offer sacrifices through Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 10:16 indicates that partaking of the Bread and Wine is a participation in Christ’s Body and Blood.
In John 6, Jesus states that the bread and wine He is to give as His Flesh and Blood is the same flesh and blood that he gives on the cross for the life of the world.
At the Last Supper, Jesus gives us the Bread and Wine, proclaiming it to be His Body and Blood, and to continue this indefinitely.
It appears that we are just talking past each other at this point. All of the relevant scriptures have been posted to defend this teaching. There is only one more I would suggest you read; Please take a look at Luke 14:15-24 and tell me what you think that means.
You still need to answer the question I posed about 1 Peter 2:5.
The Catholic Church fully agrees that Christ’s sacrifice was once for all, but Scripture clearly indicates that we are to take part in that one eternal sacrifice.
1 Peter 2:5 indicates that we are to offer sacrifices through Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 10:16 indicates that partaking of the Bread and Wine is a participation in Christ’s Body and Blood.
In John 6, Jesus states that the bread and wine He is to give as His Flesh and Blood is the same flesh and blood that he gives on the cross for the life of the world.
At the Last Supper, Jesus gives us the Bread and Wine, proclaiming it to be His Body and Blood, and to continue this indefinitely.
It appears that we are just talking past each other at this point. All of the relevant scriptures have been posted to defend this teaching. There is only one more I would suggest you read; Please take a look at Luke 14:15-24 and tell me what you think that means.
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Jon_S
Guest
What Jesus instituted at the Last Supper is our participation in His once for all sacrifice, which He made through His death and resurrection.
His sacrifice was for the remission of sins, and the consecrated Bread and Wine is our participation in that. (again, see 1 Cor. 10:16)
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
**brkn1 you havent even graduated from understanding Jesus priesthood yet, and your jumping into his deep mysteries of his body and blood, the Eucharist.
Now, I will be plain, Jesus commanded the apostles to offer his body and blood in the species of bread and wine, that become his body and blood at the words of Jesus Christ himself. Jesus built his church on the apostle Peter, Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of God (authority) to teach, preach, feed his church. Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power to baptise, FORGIVE SINS, confirm the believers, ordain priests, deacons, bishops.
The Roman Catholic church continues to do as Jesus commanded the apostles in the successors of the original apostles. These are the priests of Jesus Christ himself, to administer his sacraments to his children, Person Christi = in the person of Christ made present in our priests and bishops, so in order to minister the mysteries of God. Because as Paul states clearly in scripture they are the ministers of the mysteries of God.
Now when God states in scripture Perpetual in the old covenant sacrifices, and Jesus fulfilled them in the new covenant once and for all. Jesus being our high priest, did his sacrifice STOP after he resurrected and ascended into heaven or is his sacrifice eternal as his High priesthood? Can you explain your understanding of your opinion belief on Jesus sacrifice? Please dont tell me what my Catholic faith teaches I can inform of my Catholic faith. What is important right now is your opinion and then I can give you what my Catholic believes and teaches, so please, you are at a disadvantage when you pretend to explain Catholic beliefs.**
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brkn1
Guest
(1Peter 2:5) is not a good verse for a thread that asks why we do not obey and follow the Pope.
It calls all of those in Christ “an holy priesthood”.
That means that we can go directly and boldly in Christ to the Father without the need of any earthly mediator.
Our Mediator is Jesus alone, Who told us not to follow any of those who say they are Christ or His “substitute”.
The spiritual sacrifices that we offer to God in Christ can not have any comparison to what Jesus did completely Himself on the cross. That is totally God’s work and there is no man worthy to even suggest that they can have any part in that work. We can only receive through God’s gift of faith the results of that sacrifice, which is eternal salvation for those who are given to believe in the Son of God and His once-for-all sacrifice.
(Hebrews 13:15) “By Him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His Name.”
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brkn1
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I can not find any scripture that says Jesus commanded His apostles to OFFER His body and blood.
I find scripture where Jesus commands that we gather together to EAT the bread and wine in remembrance (worshipful loving memory, praise and gratefullness for what He is and has done for us) of Him.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
What part of “Do this in remembrance of me” you dont understand?
I take it you dont have an answer to God’s word of Perpetual sacrifice and the eternal priesthood on what these mean? because I have asked you twice and still no answer.
You keep refering to Jesus sacrifice on the cross to which I dont have any disagreement with you on his body and blood sacrifice on Calvary.
I thought we were discussing Jesus Priesthood. Can you explain why Jesus has a High Priesthood, now that he has done everything, why a perpetual sacrifice is God’s command, and What is Jesus doing with a High Priesthood, if their is not a function attached to it?
Can you enlighten me with scripture or your opinion please? reminder please dont tell me my Catholic faith on what you think it is not. Ask me and I will tell you what it is.
thanks and happy Paschua
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Jon_S
Guest
St. Paul is in BIG trouble then…
1 Cor. 10:16
“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?”
To “have a part in something” means to “participate in it.”
Happy Easter.
-Jon
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brkn1
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I will discuss this when I get a chance later.What part of “Do this in remembrance of me” you dont understand?
I take it you dont have an answer to God’s word of Perpetual sacrifice and the eternal priesthood on what these mean? because I have asked you twice and still no answer.
You keep refering to Jesus sacrifice on the cross to which I dont have any disagreement with you on his body and blood sacrifice on Calvary.
I thought we were discussing Jesus Priesthood. Can you explain why Jesus has a High Priesthood, now that he has done everything, why a perpetual sacrifice is God’s command, and What is Jesus doing with a High Priesthood, if their is not a function attached to it?
Can you enlighten me with scripture or your opinion please? reminder please dont tell me my Catholic faith on what you think it is not. Ask me and I will tell you what it is.
thanks and happy Paschua
We need a High Priest in Heaven because that is where the only true once-for-all sacrifice of His Precious Blood could be presented to the Father in the Heavenly Temple for our sins.
Jesus now mediates as High Priest with the Father to sanctify us on earth as we pilgrim on this world looking for the better world reserved for those who are His sheep. Sanctification is different than salvation.
Have a Blessed Paschua
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onenow1
Guest
Hi, All
Happy Resurection Day and May God Bless All.
OneNow1
Happy Resurection Day and May God Bless All.
OneNow1
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Jon_S
Guest
John 21:17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You " Jesus said to him, " Tend My sheep.
Why did Jesus ask Peter to “tend His sheep?”
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brkn1
Guest
(Hebrews 10:12-14) sums up the only correct answer to the question you ask.
“But this man, after he had offered ONE sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by ONE offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
If Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary is the fulfillment (which it is) of all the previous sacrifices for sin, then there can be no more offering for sin. As Jesus said : “It is FINISHED”
The sacrificial system that was described starting at Abel is concluded at Jesus’ FINAL sacrifice.
What Jesus did can NEVER be repeated and it never needs to be repeated.
It is a perpetual sacrifce only in its infinitely perfect singleness and effect, not in any unnecessary repetition of any sort, which such false idea would take away from its infinite perfection by such a falsely claimed need.
The Blood has been ONCE shed and ONCE offered by Jesus, by Himself alone, and accepted by the Father in the Heavenly Temple and the work is complete, which is shown by Jesus sitting down on the right hand of the Father.
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onenow1
Guest
Hi, brkn1
I have noticed in all your posts, you continue to use your own understanding of catholic beliefs and practices, which are incorrect.
You continue to call our Mass as a re-sacrificing of Jesus on the cross, which is not true. Now here’s the truth of the matter; Form the beginning of the Mass to the end, the gospel of Jesus is brought to our memory, The passion and the death of our Saviour, Jesus Christ which is central to our beliefs. ]
Side note: All the following are probably the reasons, Jesus was so repetative in the bread of life discourse in John 6.
Our offfering to God the Father, is what we do in co-operation with Jesus one and only sacrifice for us. The request by Jesus to the Father as a man, Was ! Father forgive them for they kmow not what they do. This was not a command to the Father, this was a plea for all mankind, the same plea or prayer we ask of the Father in the name of Jesus at Mass.
This is the offering, made by the Minister. MINDFUL, THEREFORE O LORD NOT ONLY OF THE BLESSED PASSION OF THE SAME CHRIST, THY SON, OUR LORD, BUT ALSO OF HIS RESSURECTION FROM THE DEAD, AND FINALLY HIS GLORIOUS ASCENSION INTO HEAVEN, WE, THY MINISTERS, AS ALSO THY HOLY PEOPLE, OFFER UNTO THY SUPREME MAJESTY, OF THE GIFTS BESTOWED UPON US, THE PURE VICTIM, THE HOLY VICTIM THE ALL PERFECT VICTIM: THE HOLY BREAD OF LIFE ETERNAL AND THE CHALICE OF UNENDING SALVATION.
As you can see in the above there iis no re-sacrificing of Jesus.
Also after we receive the body and the blood we say AMEN ! which means in essence, we will die for you. At least by catholics that truly believe.
brkn1, Your understnding of this is like so many others, and thats one of the reasons for not recognizing the Catholic Church or the Pope.
Pacce OneNow1
I have noticed in all your posts, you continue to use your own understanding of catholic beliefs and practices, which are incorrect.
You continue to call our Mass as a re-sacrificing of Jesus on the cross, which is not true. Now here’s the truth of the matter; Form the beginning of the Mass to the end, the gospel of Jesus is brought to our memory, The passion and the death of our Saviour, Jesus Christ which is central to our beliefs. ]
Side note: All the following are probably the reasons, Jesus was so repetative in the bread of life discourse in John 6.
Our offfering to God the Father, is what we do in co-operation with Jesus one and only sacrifice for us. The request by Jesus to the Father as a man, Was ! Father forgive them for they kmow not what they do. This was not a command to the Father, this was a plea for all mankind, the same plea or prayer we ask of the Father in the name of Jesus at Mass.
This is the offering, made by the Minister. MINDFUL, THEREFORE O LORD NOT ONLY OF THE BLESSED PASSION OF THE SAME CHRIST, THY SON, OUR LORD, BUT ALSO OF HIS RESSURECTION FROM THE DEAD, AND FINALLY HIS GLORIOUS ASCENSION INTO HEAVEN, WE, THY MINISTERS, AS ALSO THY HOLY PEOPLE, OFFER UNTO THY SUPREME MAJESTY, OF THE GIFTS BESTOWED UPON US, THE PURE VICTIM, THE HOLY VICTIM THE ALL PERFECT VICTIM: THE HOLY BREAD OF LIFE ETERNAL AND THE CHALICE OF UNENDING SALVATION.
As you can see in the above there iis no re-sacrificing of Jesus.
Also after we receive the body and the blood we say AMEN ! which means in essence, we will die for you. At least by catholics that truly believe.
brkn1, Your understnding of this is like so many others, and thats one of the reasons for not recognizing the Catholic Church or the Pope.
Pacce OneNow1
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brkn1
Guest
I must confess to some ignorance and this would especially be the case if the RCC celebration of the Mass does not in any way effect the remission of sins of the participants.
Could someone who fully understands what happens during the RCC Mass confirm that no sins are forgiven as a result of the Mass?
Thank you.
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onenow1
Guest
Here’s the answer to your question.
CC. # 1327Because this bread and wine have been made Eucharist {" eucharisted," according to an ancient expression }," we call this food Eucharist, and no one may take part in it unless he believes that what we teach is true, has received baptism for the forgivenes of sins and new birth, and lives in keeping what Christ taught. [Apology of St.Justin]
St.Paul explains this quite clearly in.1Cor.11: 26- 31.
.Peace, OneNow1
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brkn1
Guest
Your answer seems to say that the Eucharist does not effect the forgiving of sins, which I previously assumed and argued against.
If that is the case, then I apologize for dwelling on the remission of sins in regards to the Mass.
Thank you.
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lurdes
Guest
so if you believe in Jesus you have to do what he say, Jesus establish a Church with the Holy Spirit as a guide until Jesus return. Just like a king that leave someone in charge to ruled over the land until the kings return, the same way Jesus have left us in the care of his successor until hi cames back. So when Jesus ask you why you didn’t listen to the one he left in charge what would you excuse be?
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lurdes
Guest
you say that Jesus wasn’t talking about the eucharist he was going to establish later in the last supper? and if Jesus was talking about, was just to be in a spiritual state why did he let the people and even some of his disciples walk away without explaining to them that he meant spiritual state he says " For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink" what does he mean? and why say the same word in the last supper and showing them real bread and real wine? if it was just a spiritual state? wouldn’t had been better to just pray and tell them to pray so they can eat his flesh and drink his blood by just being in a state of prayer? I think that Jesus meant what he said eat my flesh and drink my blood and he gave us a way to do that with bread and wine.
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lurdes
Guest
I agreed with you and I pray that one day we will be one Catholic Orthodox Apostolic ChurchI understand and read the same. However, this will have to be worked out through all of our Bishops, since I’m not even a deacon, [yet?speaking of…
]
I feel that I could easily cross the line. But if I could leave and apostolical church once so easily, I can’t do it again this time. My wife would throw me on my head. And besides, I feel it more worthwhile to live out my life in peace and let the bishops have the reigns. I didn’t drive so good that last time I left the Church.
In my mind, I basically refuse to separate the Orthodox from the Catholic or visa versa. I beleive they are inseparable. I think of us as two sisters in a cat fight.Need a visual?
We are catholic.
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