Why would a woman want an abortion

[sadiebelle]

I think we’re kind of talking past each other here. I know that you can come up with options other than abortion for all of the specific reasons I listed. I’m not asking anyone to argue with these reasons.

I was was just curious if this pro-life audience would be able to empathize with women faced with unwanted pregnancies enough to understand why they would feel that they have to have an abortion or even want to have an abortion.

No one has abortions for fun. Women don’t enjoy them. So, they certainly have their own, usually private, reasons. Those are the ideas I was looking for.

What other reasons could cause women to want to have an abortion or to feel that they have no other option?

And, again, what are you doing to specifically address these issues? Because, this is I think where pro-life and pro-choice folks can come together.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I think we’re kind of talking past each other here. I know that you can come up with options other than abortion for all of the specific reasons I listed. I’m not asking anyone to argue with these reasons.

I was was just curious if this pro-life audience would be able to empathize with women faced with unwanted pregnancies enough to understand why they would feel that they have to have an abortion or even want to have an abortion.

No one has abortions for fun. Women don’t enjoy them. So, they certainly have their own, usually private, reasons. Those are the ideas I was looking for.

What other reasons could cause women to want to have an abortion or to feel that they have no other option?

And, again, what are you doing to specifically address these issues? Because, this is I think where pro-life and pro-choice folks can come together.

I copied my post from this thread Why do women have abortions? (PLEASE DON’T POST THERE since the thread is from 2008. Thanks.)

Part I: Introduction: Pro-life women, and daughters from pro-life families, do have abortions.

Part II: Families that don’t recover.

Part III: Rage, anger, contempt, scorn.

Part IV: Living In a Fishbowl

 

[TCEL]

I’m hearing from you that abortion isn’t the answer women really want. That’s why we do what we do! We try to empower women to realize they do have a choice aside from abortion. Adoption being a wonderful one. Isn’t that something people on both sides can come together on?

 

[Lochias]

I think we’re kind of talking past each other here. I know that you can come up with options other than abortion for all of the specific reasons I listed. I’m not asking anyone to argue with these reasons.

Okay, taking a step back.

I was was just curious if this pro-life audience would be able to empathize with women faced with unwanted pregnancies enough to understand why they would feel that they have to have an abortion or even want to have an abortion.

I don’t think it’s possible to be a pro-life activist without being able to empathize with woman facing unwanted pregnancies. Part of helping such women see past the very real and very present panic, fear and / or shame of their situation, though, is being able to produce counter-arguments to what they’re feeling like I did, above. To be pro-life is to live and breathe logic and reason, or at least attempt to.

No one has abortions for fun. Women don’t enjoy them. So, they certainly have their own, usually private, reasons. Those are the ideas I was looking for.

Well, to be frank, the “tone” in your message, as well as the content, made it sound like you already had a list of those ideas in your head, and it felt a little like you were shaking your finger at us, so to speak.

What other reasons could cause women to want to have an abortion or to feel that they have no other option?

I think those kinds of questions have been hashed and re-hashed for a long time, both in this thread and elsewhere.

And, again, what are you doing to specifically address these issues? Because, this is I think where pro-life and pro-choice folks can come together.

Let me answer with a question, because it will give me a better idea on where you stand in regards to some issues, and better facilitate dialogue, if you’ll bear with me:

What don’t you think the Church is doing enough of to address such issues? Or do you think the Church is doing okay in that regard?

 

[josh987654321]

And if you want to stop abortion, what are you doing to address these issues?

*Why would a woman want an abortion? *

I don’t believe there is a one size fits all, too many variables, all sorts of reasons, why would anyone want to murder another human being? again, many ways murderers justify it.

And if you want to stop abortion, what are you doing to address these issues?

First and foremost supporting any legal action making it harder for women to have an abortion until eventually criminalizing abortion all together, as it should be.

Those who promote abortion or abortions that seek to snatch from the Author and Lord of life His legitimate and sole rights… those who under the slogan that “a woman has the right to decide about her own body”, are concealing the “right” to kill, which will never be a right!

“Liberty, what crimes are committed in your name.” - Madame Roland

This is an issue where I cannot say “oh well, agree to disagree” at the end of the day. If you or I were watching a woman getting beaten by her husband and said “Stop, you have no right to beat your wife like that.” and he replied *“You believe what you want to believe and I’ll believe what I want to believe and I believe she deserves it.” *I doubt we would settle for *“Okay, lets just agree to disagree.” *I’m sure we would most likely quip with something like “I don’t care what she did, you have no right to beat her.” and we don’t know the trials her husband has gone through, we don’t know his justification for beating her, maybe she had an affair on him or something.

However I doubt we would simply walk away saying “we should instead address the root causes of spousal abuse” and let him continue beating his wife. I mean sure, we can and should address the root causes of spousal abuse, but wouldn’t you agree that is secodary to stopping him first and foremost from beating his wife to death?

The pregnant woman doesn’t carry a toothbrush in her womb, nor a tumor. Science teaches that from the moment of conception, the new being has all the genetic code. It’s impressive. It’s not, therefore, a religious question but clearly a moral one, based on science. - Pope Francis

*“It is not ‘progressive’ to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life.” *- Pope Francis

Absolute freedom mocks at justice. Absolute justice denies freedom. Albert Camus

Those who promote abortions are surely in for trouble, may the blood of the innocent ones which runs like a river not wake them in their sleep to drown them in nightmares.

“For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

Give me the patience to endure that which cannot be changed, the courage to change that which should be changed, and the wisdom to know the difference. Oliver J. Hart

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[DarkLight]

Here’s a thought:

Imagine you go to the store to pick up some beer. Now imagine when you show up, there’s a bunch of muslim protesters there. They have pamphlets on the dangers of drunk driving and how people have ruined lives by drinking. They have signs warning that alcohol will ruin your life. One of them approaches you and asks if you’ve considered sparkling cider instead. They link you to a website; you go there and find a bunch of information on their campaigns to make it hard for people to buy alcohol.

That is, in my experience, how most pro-choice people feel about opposition to abortion. It’s not that they don’t realize there are other options. It’s that they see nothing wrong with the option they’re taking. To most that I’ve talked to, the idea that a fetus might be human is quite literally ridiculous. The only possible reason they can think of for anyone to oppose abortion is that their religion says so. And they can’t think of any reason why the religion would, so they fall back on misogyny.

And that, I think, is where the battle lies. The problem is that to the other side we have no credibility. All they see is a bunch of religious people trying to ban something that to them is obviously just fine because their religion says its bad. The first line of battle is going to be establishing our own credibility. And I think the first step in that is going to be to learn to speak their language - I have often found the language many pro-lifers use simply sounds like sexist nonsense to a pro-choicer.

As a practical matter, I think just being seen as a pro-lifer working on causes that pro-choicers do generally support is important. For me, I’ve found I have far more ground with people who know me as someone who does work against violence against women. We have to break down the us vs. them mentality, get them to see that we do care about life, all life. Then we have a chance to talk.

 

[TCEL]

And that, I think, is where the battle lies. The problem is that to the other side we have no credibility. All they see is a bunch of religious people trying to ban something that to them is obviously just fine because their religion says its bad. The first line of battle is going to be establishing our own credibility. And I think the first step in that is going to be to learn to speak their language - I have often found the language many pro-lifers use simply sounds like sexist nonsense to a pro-choicer

Secular Pro-Life

I hear you, but I see pro-life people helping others all the time. There’s nothing wrong if some people are specially devoted to one cause. It’s like saying Wilberforce was wrong for focusing so strongly on abolition.

I was convinced after seeing a video of an abortion. That’s cold data.

 

[DarkLight]

Secular Pro-Life

I hear you, but I see pro-life people helping others all the time. There’s nothing wrong if some people are specially devoted to one cause. It’s like saying Wilberforce was wrong for focusing so strongly on abolition.

I was convinced after seeing a video of an abortion. That’s cold data.

It’s definitely out there. My point though is it is not something that many people are aware of. I would wager that most pro-choicers don’t know about such things. We have an image problem that’s making it hard to get to the point where we can have an honest dialogue.

My experience talking to people is that most pro-choice people see pro-life people as religious fanatics who care too much about others’ sex lives. Protests outside clinics won’t affect people who are firmly pro-choice. They will affect people who aren’t sure yet. And that is important. But to get to the people who are really pro-choice, who are willing to fight for it, we need something else.

As an aside: This is what I really like about Pope Francis. Not that he’s teaching anything new about the poor or social justice, but that he’s putting what the church teaches out in a way that gets it to the attention of others.

 

[adrift]

Teaching a child about sexual reproduction makes them no more likely to have sex then teaching them basic math makes them a mathematician.

The statistics do not back up this statement.
Teaching them in a mixed class breaks down the natural modesty. The trend was pregnancy rates for unmarried woman went up after the sex education classes became prominent in schools. They are taught, at least in the school my children went to, that homosexuality is just an alternative and that natural means of preventing a pregnancy doesn’t work. They are also taught the children not to trust their parents. They brought In as speakers planned parenthood.

Sex education belongs to the parents not to the state. The state cannot provide the moral balance and without the morality we have developed what society is experiencing today with more than half being born out of wedlock and predicted by 2016 that most will be. It isn’t a lack of education but the right kind

 

[TCEL]

It’s definitely out there. My point though is it is not something that many people are aware of. I would wager that most pro-choicers don’t know about such things. We have an image problem that’s making it hard to get to the point where we can have an honest dialogue.

My experience talking to people is that most pro-choice people see pro-life people as religious fanatics who care too much about others’ sex lives. Protests outside clinics won’t affect people who are firmly pro-choice. They will affect people who aren’t sure yet. And that is important. But to get to the people who are really pro-choice, who are willing to fight for it, we need something else.

As an aside: This is what I really like about Pope Francis. Not that he’s teaching anything new about the poor or social justice, but that he’s putting what the church teaches out in a way that gets it to the attention of others.

I totally understand. Our pregnancy-help clinic is kitty-corner to the abortion-clinic. Thing is, there’s also a group of people who are out there faithfully on certain days of the week, and they feed the negative stereotype. We’re having a difficult time figuring out how to communicate that we don’t share their approach. It’s not helpful or compassionate to the women. I myself feel uncomfortable around them.

I’ve also seen the power that continuous, prayerful, and peaceful presence can have in front of a clinic. If I ever have a chance to communicate with a man or woman, I only give them a pamphlet from the secular site I linked to. I’m not comfortable holding signs or anything.

That said, I also feel like some people will think I’m a fanatic no matter what I do, unless I recant my beliefs. I hate resorting to this example, but the pro-life message just isn’t popular in a lot of the culture to begin with. It takes less work to believe a stereotype. For example; I don’t actually think most women who get abortions are people of evil-will.

 

[sadiebelle]

I’m hearing from you that abortion isn’t the answer women really want. That’s why we do what we do! We try to empower women to realize they do have a choice aside from abortion. Adoption being a wonderful one. Isn’t that something people on both sides can come together on?

Yikes. Adoption is not something that we can agree on. I am not exactly anti-adoption, but I have many, many reservations about adoption.

 

[sadiebelle]

Here’s a thought:

Imagine you go to the store to pick up some beer. Now imagine when you show up, there’s a bunch of muslim protesters there. They have pamphlets on the dangers of drunk driving and how people have ruined lives by drinking. They have signs warning that alcohol will ruin your life. One of them approaches you and asks if you’ve considered sparkling cider instead. They link you to a website; you go there and find a bunch of information on their campaigns to make it hard for people to buy alcohol.

That is, in my experience, how most pro-choice people feel about opposition to abortion. It’s not that they don’t realize there are other options. It’s that they see nothing wrong with the option they’re taking. To most that I’ve talked to, the idea that a fetus might be human is quite literally ridiculous. The only possible reason they can think of for anyone to oppose abortion is that their religion says so. And they can’t think of any reason why the religion would, so they fall back on misogyny.

And that, I think, is where the battle lies. The problem is that to the other side we have no credibility. All they see is a bunch of religious people trying to ban something that to them is obviously just fine because their religion says its bad. The first line of battle is going to be establishing our own credibility. And I think the first step in that is going to be to learn to speak their language - I have often found the language many pro-lifers use simply sounds like sexist nonsense to a pro-choicer.

As a practical matter, I think just being seen as a pro-lifer working on causes that pro-choicers do generally support is important. For me, I’ve found I have far more ground with people who know me as someone who does work against violence against women. We have to break down the us vs. them mentality, get them to see that we do care about life, all life. Then we have a chance to talk.

Brilliant. It’s apparent that you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this. I really appreciate your tone. If we could just get in the same room with people we disagree with, see them as regular folks, we could really begin to change society. What better way to get in the same room, than by supporting a common goal? This is the attitude we could do with a lot more of.

 

[TCEL]

Yikes. Adoption is not something that we can agree on. I am not exactly anti-adoption, but I have many, many reservations about adoption.

Why?

 

[ishii]

And if you want to stop abortion, what are you doing to address these issues?

You’re asking the wrong question, imo. The question to ask is why do some mothers now consider killing their unborn child as a legitimate option? I think they consider abortion now as a solution because that has been drummed into them by our relativist, secular culture. When so many shout from the rooftops - “my body my choice” and say things like “abortion is a sacred right” why wouldn’t women consider abortion as something similar to getting, say, an appendectomy. The circumstances women find themselves in, which you’ve listed on this thread, were happening before abortion was widespread and legal. They are happening now, and will continue to happen, unfortunately. But the difference between now and then is that women have been taught that its okay to kill their child in the womb.

So the question is then, how did that happen and how can we change that, so that our society once again regains its respect for the sanctity of life.

Ishii

 

[DarkLight]

You’re asking the wrong question, imo. The question to ask is why do some mothers now consider killing their unborn child as a legitimate option? I think they consider abortion now as a solution because that has been drummed into them by our relativist, secular culture. When so many shout from the rooftops - “my body my choice” and say things like “abortion is a sacred right” why wouldn’t women consider abortion as something similar to getting, say, an appendectomy. The circumstances women find themselves in, which you’ve listed on this thread, were happening before abortion was widespread and legal. They are happening now, and will continue to happen, unfortunately. But the difference between now and then is that women have been taught that its okay to kill their child in the womb.

So the question is then, how did that happen and how can we change that, so that our society once again regains its respect for the sanctity of life.

Ishii

Thank you. This is what I’ve been trying to say - for many women in our modern society, it doesn’t even seriously cross their minds that abortion might be wrong. For many pro-choice women, adoption may even be a morally inferior choice, because to them it means bringing a child into the world without parents to care for it. They choose it because they believe only a few religious fanatics oppose abortion.

 

[TCEL]

Thank you. This is what I’ve been trying to say - for many women in our modern society, it doesn’t even seriously cross their minds that abortion might be wrong. For many pro-choice women, adoption may even be a morally inferior choice, because to them it means bringing a child into the world without parents to care for it. They choose it because they believe only a few religious fanatics oppose abortion.

I guess this just hasn’t been my experience. Most pro-choicers I talk to instinctively understand that abortion is a serious issue. Why else would they say abortion should be rare, and that no woman wants one or is happy about getting one?

 

[sadiebelle]

You’re asking the wrong question, imo. The question to ask is why do some mothers now consider killing their unborn child as a legitimate option? I think they consider abortion now as a solution because that has been drummed into them by our relativist, secular culture. When so many shout from the rooftops - “my body my choice” and say things like “abortion is a sacred right” why wouldn’t women consider abortion as something similar to getting, say, an appendectomy. The circumstances women find themselves in, which you’ve listed on this thread, were happening before abortion was widespread and legal. They are happening now, and will continue to happen, unfortunately. But the difference between now and then is that women have been taught that its okay to kill their child in the womb.

So the question is then, how did that happen and how can we change that, so that our society once again regains its respect for the sanctity of life.

Ishii

I don’t think there are any wrong questions. I am really interested in folks’ answers. I think that it is important to try to put ourselves into the shoes of others–to really get into their heads; to empathize.

 

[sadiebelle]

Thank you. This is what I’ve been trying to say - for many women in our modern society, it doesn’t even seriously cross their minds that abortion might be wrong. For many pro-choice women, adoption may even be a morally inferior choice, because to them it means bringing a child into the world without parents to care for it. They choose it because they believe only a few religious fanatics oppose abortion.

I guess this just hasn’t been my experience. Most pro-choicers I talk to instinctively understand that abortion is a serious issue. Why else would they say abortion should be rare, and that no woman wants one or is happy about getting one?

I think that this illustrates a common problem. Pro life person 1 says: many pro-choice women are apathetic and/or ignorant about their pregnancies. Pro life person 2 says: many pro-choice women know that this is serious.

Here’s the problem as I see it: The women who have abortions are not “most pro-choice women”. Her reasons are not “the average pro-choice reasons”. Just like any common, but intimate decision, the decision to have an abortion is as unique as the woman who makes it.

I think that this is a big part of the disconnect between pro-choice and pro-life people. I find that pro-life folks tend to see things in a much more black or white way than the grays that pro-choice folks see.

 

[ishii]

I don’t think there are any wrong questions. I am really interested in folks’ answers. I think that it is important to try to put ourselves into the shoes of others–to really get into their heads; to empathize.

Let me re-phrase: the more important question is not “why do women have abortions” - e.g. because of rape, abuse, economic circumstances, etc., but why do women consider the killing of their child to be a legitimate option? What has happened to our society’s value of life that a mother would consider this option? I think that is the more important question. Not that you were wrong to pose your original question.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

 I think that this illustrates a common problem.  Pro life person 1 says: many pro-choice  women are apathetic and/or ignorant about their pregnancies.  Pro life person 2 says: many pro-choice women know that this is serious.

Here’s the problem as I see it: The women who have abortions are not “most pro-choice women”. Her reasons are not “the average pro-choice reasons”. Just like any common, but intimate decision, the decision to have an abortion is as unique as the woman who makes it.

I think that this is a big part of the disconnect between pro-choice and pro-life people. I find that pro-life folks tend to see things in a much more black or white way than the grays that pro-choice folks see.

Again, I think your focus is misdirected toward comparing pro-choice folks’ thinking with women who opt for abortions and their circumstances/thinking. The pro-choice folks have an agenda. They are generally relativist. They are involved in politics. The early pro-choice movement was based on racist/eugenic ideas. The modern pro-choice movement doesn’t come out and say they’re racist, but coincidentally most of the abortion clinics are in inner cities. The woman who kills her unborn child is generally making a choice based on a crisis situation. It is a bit absurd to speak of their motivation and compare it to the pro-abortion (pro-choice) activist.

The issue is that protecting human life has become a gray issue at all. How did the people who see protecting human life as a difficult gray issue become the ones who decide our laws? That is the question we need to be asking.

Ishii