please define predestinationDouble predestination is probably the most cruel doctrine of all. It just doesn’t seem like it could pass the “God is Love” test either.
Predestination=
Double predestination=
Me tired now.
thank you … you’ve just shown, quite well… the lunacy of predestination.If you are predestined to heaven what can you do to serve God?
You can’t help any other souls to heaven because they are predestined one way or another.
You can’t sin because you are predestined to go to heaven - well unless God has favorites.
The only thing you could really affect is time spent in purgatory and I’m willing to bet those who believe in predestination don’t believe in purgatory - but heyI could be wrong.
And if you are predestined for hell - what would more sinning hurt?
John Calvin, also known as Human being… (fallible).
why because you are gay?No one is being forced to believe anything, so don’t worry about it.
Secondly, it’s not charitable to claim another believing person’s beliefs are not rational.
I could see you saying mine are not rational, but really! Your own beleving sisters and brothers? Even if you disagree, you have to realize they don’t think it is the least bit irrational. Give them the benefit of the doubt they sincerely believe as they do.
It would be better to say, I don’t agree in this doctrine because XYZ.
But, just dismissing it as not rational, that is not helping anyone see your objection at all.
I personally think your use of emotional appeal, and later statements don’t do much to prove it is irrational at all. It’s no more irrational than Lot and his daughters story. I mean, I think it fits perfectly within rational if you compare those two events.
Anything goes with God after all.
I really wish that horrible story about Lot was not in the bible. It makes me sick.
this proves nothing…Its the same thing he said many other places in many other ways; and the same thing the Scriptures say. But the key point Augustine made there was this:
“neither can he that is pardoned glory in any merit of his own, nor he that is condemned complain of anything but his own demerit”
Just because we don’t know what the future holds, doesn’t mean God doesn’t know who will respond to His grace and who won’t. And notice Augustine explicitly states:
“He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil”
I agree completely. There’s nothing wrong with saying that God predestined some to Hell; its the same thing as saying He predestined some for Heaven. But again, that is from God’s perspective, knowing the end from the beginning - which I see that you agree with!
only God knows if someone has turned his back on Christ 100%
yes and its not the only scirpture psg that does… wish i had my Bible…
see Post #48As does the Cross. Why should common sense be the index of what is true ? Christian faith is full of paradoxes, but it makes sense. “Common sense” would dictate that Jesus should avoid the Cross, as Peter wanted him to - but all Peter got for his commonsensical advice was, to be called Satan. That is what Jesus thought of Peter’s commonsensical, & so reasonable, advice. Common sense would do away with the “folly of the Cross”, with the mercy of God to sinners who hate Him, & with a thousand other things that a realirties in how He acts. Common sense does not suggest that conversion is a good idea at all - look what a great price a man of Newman’s stature had to pay for his. Common sense was against what he did, & against what many others too have done. Be guided by common sense - & have an abortion. The prohibition of it, is not based on following common sense.
I thought Christians lived by faith - not by common sense
that could probably said of all heresy…Well, I’m not an expert on Calvinism, but all the Calvinists that I come across and or debate do deny free will (example). And you’re right, they love to speak of it in exalted terms like the “sovereignty of God”! But do you know why that is? Its because heretics love to cover their poison with honey - the “sovereignty of God” tastes sweet in your mouth, but the denial of free will becomes bitter in your stomach (cf. Rev. 10:10).
so you say…
I suppose a good example of predestination is Judas Iscariot. In Christian theology the crucifixion wasn’t a mishap, or something entirely unintended by God, so presumably God must have willed the means by which it was to come about - namely Judas’s treachery. But does the Bible in any way represent him as not being responsible for his deeds? As paradoxical as it may seem to us, the answer is that no it doesn’t. In the Bible God’s absolute predestination, and human free will, exist side by side.
The Catholic representation of Calvinist theology is that God positively intervenes to bring about the damnation of those not predestined to life, is it not?
interesting point.
which is why i offer up sufferings NOW in expiation of my sins…
i don’t know exactly… but i think the RCC says that Calvin taught some are predestined to Heaven and some to Hell… which is a better way to put it that you have put it because i’m not sure i u/stand your way…
exactly…Can anyone tell me what would be God’s purpose in predistining some to hell? Does that even make sense?
So Judas had no free will? He was placed on the earth to give Christ up? In other words, Judas has no culpability in his sin against Christ?
Lastly, God created hell to send all the people he predestined to go there?
How in the world could anyone live under such a system of belief?
Read Aquinas. Or Paul for that matter.
He did have free will. That is one of the paradoxes with which Christian theology is full.
He was culpable because his intention was not to serve God, even though that was the effect.
God does not positively predestine to hell; he merely refrains from granting the grace necessary for salvation to anybody other than the elect.
You are not invited to like what the Bible has to say, but you are invited to believe what it has to say, because of its status as the inspired word of God.