why would any rational person believe this???!!!

[cthulhubryan]

Predestination and the such, to my way of thinking, is a misunderstanding of God and His relationship to time.

God is extemporal He is outside of time. So while God will know, at the moment of your birth, the name of your spouse and how many kids you will have and where your soul will end up it is NOT due to predestination. God is outside time so He can see it all as one instance and will know how the story ends.

Can God intervene to stop one from going to Hell? Of course, but at the moment of your birth He is also at the moment of intervention.

This is one of the many reasons that man cannot truly understand the nature of God.

 

[happilycatholic]

Read Aquinas. Or Paul for that matter

.

I’m not asking for Aquinas’ or Paul’s conclusions. I want someone here who believes in this to tell me why they believe it. Why *they *follow it and how they can justify faith in God and God’s grace with predistination. If a soul is put on this earth destined for hell, what was the point in the soul’s existance in the first place? There is absolutely no reason for God to create man for the sole purpose of sending him to hell. Hell was already in existance and populated by Lucifer’s army before the first sin was committed. Why create Adam for hell? Why create Eve for hell? Why creat anyone for hell?

Not to mention if God was going to create man for hell and then claim to give man free will then God would have to have created a proceedure for man to ensure his destination in hell (sort of the opposite of Christ/salvation) that would be SIN.

God did not create sin. God did not create sin in Lucifer. God did not personally populate hell with some plan for predistination. That’s utterly ludicris.

He did have free will. That is one of the paradoxes with which Christian theology is full.

I think you are most definitely “invited” to love and cherish God’s word. You don’t necessarily have to choose to do so, but Christ certainly “invites” us all to enjoy the Gospel of the Lord friend.

The last time I checked the Inspired Word of God did not direct us to believe that God predestines us to hell and thereby giving us the means to get there. One does not come without the other and I don’t know where you find God as the purveyor of sin.

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[mathematician]

I’m not asking for Aquinas’ or Paul’s conclusions. I want someone here who believes in this to tell me why they believe it.

I believe it because it has biblical authority. You might not want Aquinas’s reply as to the “why”, but I will give it to you anyway:

“The reason for the predestination of some, and reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. Thus He is said to have made all things through His goodness, so that the divine goodness might be represented in things. Now it is necessary that God’s goodness, which in itself is one and undivided, should be manifested in many ways in His creation; because creatures in themselves cannot attain to the simplicity of God. Thus it is that for the completion of the universe there are required different grades of being; some of which hold a high and some a low place in the universe. That this multiformity of grades may be preserved in things, God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above (Question 22, Article 2). Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Romans 9:22-23): “What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory” and (2 Timothy 2:20): “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor.” Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): “Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.” Thus too, in the things of nature, a reason can be assigned, since primary matter is altogether uniform, why one part of it was fashioned by God from the beginning under the form of fire, another under the form of earth, that there might be a diversity of species in things of nature. Yet why this particular part of matter is under this particular form, and that under another, depends upon the simple will of God; as from the simple will of the artificer it depends that this stone is in part of the wall, and that in another; although the plan requires that some stones should be in this place, and some in that place. Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice. This is what the master of the house said: “Take what is thine, and go thy way. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will?” (Matthew 20:14-15).”

 

[happilycatholic]

I believe it because it has biblical authority. You might not want Aquinas’s reply as to the “why”, but I will give it to you anyway:

You don’t seem to understand. Aquinas didn’t write the Gospel. Aquinas’ opinions are not necessarily divinely inspired.

I think no one would deny that Aquinas’ point of view is moot. One would have to conclude that God created some in less than his own image to legitimize this statement given by Aquinas.

That said, I am not bound to agree with everything every saint ever said. I am only bound to agree with the Church’s interpretation of God’s Word as a whole. Saints are entitled to their opinions.

Everyone from Adam to the last man standing has a choice to make, including Aquinas. I choose to believe that God created man for Heaven, every single one.

To claim that God must give up some part of his power in order to give us a gift is to negate Christ’s reason for dying on the cross. God did not die in vain. God died on the cross so that people who do not deserve to go to Heaven can repent and change their destiny, a thousand times if need be. As long as your intent is to be in God’s presence, his will for you is Heaven. You must continue to live in God’s light. When you no longer decide to live in the light of God, YOU are choosing your destiny, not God.

If one doesn’t control his own destiny then what is the reason for living? What if Job had decided he must have been destined for hell? He may as well have. Was Job one of the elect? What keeps a person who is having a really horrible life from going out and becoming a serial killer or just plain mean?

What you are doing in effect is taking away man’s culpability for the wrongs he commits. Anyone could just determine they are destined for hell and go in that direction.

And as far as Aquinas’ theory of “Gold and Silver” and “Wood and Earth” or whatever, I believe there are degrees of sin, not souls. God made very soul perfect. Man is the sinner and therefor the blight on the soul, not God.

You yourself will determine whether you are gold, silver, wood or earth.

 

[mark_a]

for what the Catholic Church teaches see #48

also… Are you against Marian doctrines???

Absolutely not. But a few Radio apologists just stumble terribly when asked about Marian doctrines. I would rather hear a canned answer than a poor one.

Most do pretty well and a few are masterful.

And yes, I *do *know that they all do a better job than I can.

Dismounting my high horse now.

 

[distracted]

Read Aquinas. Or Paul for that matter.

Post #48 (…Catholic Church’s views) doesnt support your contention that Aquinas believed in predestiantion

God does not positively predestine to hell; he merely refrains from granting the grace necessary for salvation to anybody other than the elect.
.

well, we obviously don’t worship the same God. My God loves everyone equally.

 

[distracted]

. So while God will know, at the moment of your birth, the name of your spouse and how many kids you will have and where your soul will end up it is NOT due to predestination. .

god doesn’t even know this… He knows who we MAY be likely to marry, etc… but it is our choice whehter to marry this person or that… or in my case, marry no one at all… because … never mind… We have choice every step of the way… .

God is outside time so He can see it all as one instance and will know how the story ends.

i don’t agree… God chose to not know what our choices would be… He only knows what we are INCLINED to do… what we will probbly do… knowing that we are sinners, very weak, etc… we have total free will… except that we are so pathetic we NEED Jesus… because our will is so weak… and so, without Jesus… we are lost… but there is no such thing as God know what our choices are going to be… If that were the case, it would hardly be choice… i don’t know where people get these notions…

 

[distracted]

Absolutely not. But a few Radio apologists just stumble terribly when asked about Marian doctrines. I would rather hear a canned answer than a poor one.

Most do pretty well and a few are masterful.

And yes, I *do *know that they all do a better job than I can.

Dismounting my high horse now.

hmm… i haven’t heard them try to explain Marian doctrine so don’t know…

i guess something has been revealed to me just now… I don’t like speaking to protestants and don’t do it any more than necessary… Of course, i don’t like talking to anyone but that’ another story…

anyway… i’m not sure that’s a good thing… Maybe its just the way things are right now in my so called life.

in any case… if i did have to speak to a protestnt i would just tell him that he should pray the rosary… then Mary wouldn’t be so strange an issue… worked for me…

oh wait… not entirely true.

the story of Fr Schier (spelling?) is what convinced me that the focus on mary is not wrong…

I’ll see if i cna find info on him …

anyway… once you know that the Church is infallible and instituted by God… you can believe anything She teaches…

and you can even - surprise surprise! - continue to think for yourself… seems the Catholic Chruch is the only one where you don’t have to check your brains at the door…

Here is the info on Fr Schier: frtommylane.com/homilies/year_c/lent3.htm

 

[mathematician]

Post #48 (…Catholic Church’s views) doesnt support your contention that Aquinas believed in predestiantion

Like I keep saying, read him for yourself. His words could hardly be any clearer.

 

[distracted]

Like I keep saying, read him for yourself. His words could hardly be any clearer.

the words written in Post #48 are sufficient for me…

besides, i know the truth… even before reading 48… i knew the truth about this belief…

common sense kinda works sometimes…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Do catholics ever go door to door? I never heard of one doing it or saw one ever do it.

There are some apostolates that do door-to-door evangelization. But they are not large groups here in the U.S. (Can’t speak to what may be happening in other countries.) It’s generally not been the primary means for evangelizing for the Catholic Church. Perhaps this has been to our detriment. Door to door evangalization certainly is challenging and, in many ways, fruitful.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I suppose a good example of predestination is Judas Iscariot. In Christian theology the crucifixion wasn’t a mishap, or something entirely unintended by God, so presumably God must have willed the means by which it was to come about - namely Judas’s treachery. But does the Bible in any way represent him as not being responsible for his deeds? As paradoxical as it may seem to us, the answer is that no it doesn’t. In the Bible God’s absolute predestination, and human free will, exist side by side.

Even after Judas betrayed Jesus he could have repented and sought forgiveness and it would have been granted. Jesus seemed to know, however, that Judas was not going to repent at any time following the betrayal, and in fact the Scriptures show his ultimate act of despairing - suicide. Seems to me that there was plenty of freedom of choice and no affirmative predestination to hell with respect to Judas. So, if you are you suggesting the Judas’s situation affirms double-predestination, I respectfully disagree.

Pontius Pilate may also be seen as one of the most untractable sinners in the NT. However, there is a Tradition in the Eastern Catholic Church that Pilot eventually converted to Christianity though the urgings of his wife and ultimately became a saint. If even Pilate can be converted to a believer… then I don’t think there’s much support as a practical matter in favor of double predestination.

Peace,
Robert

 

[distracted]

There are some apostolates that do door-to-door evangelization. But they are not large groups here in the U.S. (Can’t speak to what may be happening in other countries.) It’s generally not been the primary means for evangelizing for the Catholic Church. Perhaps this has been to our detriment. Door to door evangalization certainly is challenging and, in many ways, fruitful.

Peace,
Robert

have you done it?

i would like some info on this…

i would also like someone to go with me if i ever do it… but don’t think that will be an easy task… finding someone… but then… who knows??

i just would’t know what to say… at the door… (really not like me… .but religion is a big subject…)

 

[mathematician]

Even after Judas betrayed Jesus he could have repented and sought forgiveness and it would have been granted. Jesus seemed to know, however, that Judas was not going to repent at any time following the betrayal, and in fact the Scriptures show his ultimate act of despairing - suicide. Seems to me that there was plenty of freedom of choice and no affirmative predestination to hell with respect to Judas. So, if you are you suggesting the Judas’s situation affirms double-predestination, I respectfully disagree.

There was freedom of choice. There was also predestination; the former operating within the context of the latter. Either you take the view that Jesus’s crucifixion was pre-ordained by God, or you don’t. The NT authors self evidently did:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

In the minds of the NT authors predestination and moral responsibility sit side by side; paradoxical as that may be.

Pontius Pilate may also be seen as one of the most untractable sinners in the NT. However, there is a Tradition in the Eastern Catholic Church that Pilot eventually converted to Christianity though the urgings of his wife and ultimately became a saint. If even Pilate can be converted to a believer… then I don’t think there’s much support as a practical matter in favor of double predestination.

I don’t see what Pilate’s possible conversion has to do with anything.

 

[distracted]

There was freedom of choice. There was also predestination; the former operating within the context of the latter. Either you take the view that Jesus’s crucifixion was pre-ordained by God, or you don’t. The NT authors self evidently did:

.

i just want to know one thing:

do you agree with Post 48 or not???

 

[happilycatholic]

There was freedom of choice. There was also predestination; the former operating within the context of the latter. Either you take the view that Jesus’s crucifixion was pre-ordained by God, or you don’t. The NT authors self evidently did:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

In the minds of the NT authors predestination and moral responsibility sit side by side; paradoxical as that may be.

I don’t see what Pilate’s possible conversion has to do with anything.

You are obviously determined to twist whatever you need to to make predestination fit.

 

[mathematician]

You are obviously determined to twist whatever you need to to make predestination fit.

I’ve no need to twist anything. It would be no easy task to read any of Paul’s epistles without encountering the word “predestine” at least once.

 

[mathematician]

i just want to know one thing:

do you agree with Post 48 or not???

Not being a Catholic, I have no opinion on the subject, but I doubt if I would greatly dissent from the position of either Augustine or Aquinas.

 

[jbelokur]

And there was me thinking that it was Protestants who were supposed to disown authority in favour of what they would like to be true. Predestination, or preordination, runs through the Bible like a refrain, from beginning to end. Which, I suppose, is why the more illustrious Catholic saits are signed up to it.

Yes, but the paradigm from which they view predestination and a Calvinistic Predestination are different. Like every protestant doctrine it begins with experience and moves to the Bible to seek proof.

 

[mathematician]

Yes, but the paradigm from which they view predestination and a Calvinistic Predestination are different. Like every protestant doctrine it begins with experience and moves to the Bible to seek proof.

Not true. I am not exactly sure what an experience of predestination would look like.

As I said in a previous post, Catholics and Protestants could do worse than read one another’s theology. The they would be able to give up on the caricatures (unless they are too in love with the caricatures to want to give them up. In the case of “traditional” Catholics, I suspect that might just be the case.)