why would any rational person believe this???!!!

[Luke65]

Catholic generosity at work, I see - in doubt, put the worst possible construction on how those who don’t agree with you think. Which is not a moral approach, even by Catholic standards; and it is invalid as reasoning.​

I think you must have put the worst possible meaning to what I said, because actually, I was very specific:

‘the “sovereignty of God” tastes sweet in your mouth, but the denial of free will becomes bitter in your stomach’

I condemn the denial of free will unreservedly, not only because of how egregious a belief it is, but because the Catholic Church has condemned it:

“If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.” (Trent, Canon V (On Justification))

 

[Barry_Gabriel]

And there was me thinking that it was Protestants who were supposed to disown authority in favour of what they would like to be true. Predestination, or preordination, runs through the Bible like a refrain, from beginning to end. Which, I suppose, is why the more illustrious Catholic saits (sic) are signed up to it.

I thought you Anglicans didn’t consider yourselves to be protestants. Anyway, regarding John 6:37-43, have you all not seen the word “all” spoken by our Savior regarding salvation? Paul also speaks of predestination, saying something to the effect that we are predestined for salvation. He never said others are predestined for hell. He was of course speaking to a Christian community.

Jesus came to save everyone. Calvin, who was a heretic and coward, said otherwise. If Augustine and Aquinas say otherwise to Jesus Himself, then frankly they were wrong.

 

[jpaul1953]

And there was me thinking that it was Protestants who were supposed to disown authority in favour of what they would like to be true. Predestination, or preordination, runs through the Bible like a refrain, from beginning to end. Which, I suppose, is why the more illustrious Catholic saits are signed up to it.

*Dear Mathematician,

I must disagree with you. The bible states on several occasions about the “Elect”. St Paul speaks of it.

I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that this word is just the best word fitting the Greek translation into English. If you read St Paul’s Epistles, he claims that all who are listening to him are the ‘Elect’ simply because they are sitting there. He has no way of knowing whether all the people that either read or were present when it was ‘written or spoken’ will stay faithful (remember the ‘parable of the seeder’ or John 6 when so many left Jesus’ side over the Cannibalism issue). St Paul returned to many of his ‘stomping grounds’ to scold the weak-kneed believers about getting back on track. This doesn’t sound too much like the word ‘elect’ is an absolute. to me, personally.

St Paul also mentions about allowing some followers to go be with Satan since they would no longer abide in the teachings. He mentions that, it appears, so the Devil will maybe ‘scare them straight’ again.

‘Lost in Translation’ occurences normally do not affect the teachings in the bible near as much as this one does.

This is my personal belief on this. I hope it might shed some light. I’d have been more specific on the bible verses if I had my bible with me. Sorry about that.

Have a blessed day, Mathematician. BTW, if you are a Mathematician I have great respect for your abilities.

jpaul1953*

 

[PJM]

QUOTE]=mark a-Double predestination is probably the most cruel doctrine of all. It just doesn’t seem like it could pass the “God is Love” test either.

Predestination =

Double predestination

Me tired now.

***Sorry friend you are wrong on both accounts.

Before proceeding I challenge your understanding that “Predestination is rampant throughout the bible.” Could we see your evidence please?

The reason both of these suppositions cannot be true is evident in these few examples of “God being JUDGE.” Five from the OT and five from the NT. There is, can be any need for a Judge or Judgement if predestination is as you claim, a reality. These are but a few of the multitude of examples I ca provide.***

***Read: Psalm 96:10 &13, Ezek. 7:13, Isaiah 3:13, Wisdom of Solomon 1:18, and Micah 4:3.

NT: Acts 7:7, 1 Peter 4:5, Heb. 13:4, 2 Tim. 4:1 and this

Romans 3: 1-9 “1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written, “That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and prevail when thou art judged.”*** But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?” What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin,"

Note each of the references is from a different Book to demonstrate how prevalent is the understanding of to be judged and Judgement.

Your position ignore that God in order to be “good perfectly” MUST, has no choice but to judge us on how we live and practice our faith in accord to His Will. There can be no other rational explanation for our minds, intellects and freewill; all of which are Spiritual THINGS that cannot possibly be passed on to us through our physical bodies.

They are from God for the precise purpose of enabling us and OBLIGATING us to know, love and serve Him in this world, so we can spend Eternity with Him in the next! Those who do go to heaven those who fail to do Choose Hell! It is Divine Justice!

Yes God knows who will attain heaven and who will commit themselves to Hell. But is foreknowledge ONLY. We, you and me decide by how we live where we end up. God only affirms our personal choices.

THINK! There would be no need for God to judge, no need, or for that matter no justification for Judgement if God randomly choose who will go to heaven and go to hell. How can a God, who is Perfect Love, condemn anyone to Hell except on there own life choice merits? Can’t be!

Love and prayers

 

[PJM]

=Gottle of Geer;5548983]## It’s a perfectly sustainable position. Your last two sentences go a long way to explain why you can’t make any sense of it. God is said to be all-knowing, infinite in every perfection, & man to be a creature & a sinner, by Catholic & Protestant Creeds & Confessions alike: man is ***not ***a god, but a sinner. The whole human race would be damned - but for God’s mercy & grace in Christ.

BTW - short stories are not a good source of accurate theology.

***While not my choice of wording, I suspect the term “god” in this context means that we have TOTAL CONTROL by right application of our minds, intellects and freewill, that God in Divine Wisdom will never override? As to do so would deny their very purpose.

Love and prayers,***

 

[Sarpedon]

In the Calvinist pantheon, Augustine comes second only to Calvin himself. There is a reason for that. As I have said so many times before in this thread, anybody who wants to know the views of Aquinas or Augustine only needs to read them. Could it be that nobody wants to read them because they are afraid of what they might find?

First of all, it doesn’t really matter what Aquinas or Augustine thought. They are not the Magisterium.

Secondly, just because you see the word “predestination,” it does not mean that the original author was talking about Calvinistic predestination. To understand exactly what the original authors were talking about takes time and careful scholarship, which can be hard to do on the internet and during your free time. Given that Augustine and Aquinas are not part the Magisterium, and the fact that understanding the context and meaning of their original documents takes time, people may simple decide to focus on more pressing issues for the time being. Demonstrating that Augustine and Aquinas held perhaps incorrect views on predestination, which they never would have claimed to be infallible, does not affect the rational integrity of Catholicism at all.

 

[Sarpedon]

“I answer that, Man has free-will: otherwise, counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain…And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have free-will.”

Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas, Prima Pars, Question 83, First Article.

 

[distracted]

distracted;5557524:

Yes, maybe that’s my problem with this whole thing as well. I just don’t see the reason for Christ’s death on the cross if he died for those bound for hell. And if some were bound for Heaven at the inception of their souls, what would be the need for Christ’s Atonement?

I do not believe that God predestines his people to Hell. I do not beleive that God places sin in man’s path or man in the path of sin to effect His will.

That to me is what’s crazy.

But…Dave Armstrong (catholic apologist and author) who has a blog site and web site dedicated to catholic apology is quite understandable and I would suggest reading his work. It’s very informative and I think his writing style is very adequate for the scholar and those who are “not so much” such as myself.

Oh and by the way distracted, Thank You for bringing this up. It is VERY interesting to say the least!

this post comes up as being addressed to someone other than me… so someone else got “blamed” for my words… but whatever…

yes, this thing you say: " I do not beleive that God places sin in man’s path or man in the path of sin to effect His will" makes me think of this:

It is (According to God’s Word and my sense of logic, etc) God’s will, primarily, for us to be saved… so why in the h-- would He put seroius roadblocks in our way, ones we couldn’t possibly overcome…deliberately thwarting us… I mean… If God is love and wants nothing more than for us to be with Him in heaven (and you have to ask yourself if you bleive that about Him…) & we are all equally valued by Him… why would He value anything besides that?? (I’m addressing that part “to effect his will” … What would be his will other than love?? The God i belive in is this kind of God of love… and nothing is more important to Him than us being with hIm forever…

sin is the only thing thatkeeps this from happening… and we always have the choice of wehtehr to continue in sin or not… and if we always have choice… then there coiuldn’t possibly be any such thing as predestination… as explained/understood in previous posts… I guess there are different kinds of predestination (?).

One poster (different thread) made the point that we are predestined to be with God from the time we are born… I agree… The fact that some don’t reach their destination is due to pesonal choice… not some kind of divine providence… or lack thereof…

 

[distracted]

. Given that Augustine and Aquinas are not part the Magisterium, and the fact that understanding the context and meaning of their original documents takes time, people may simple decide to focus on more pressing issues for the time being. Demonstrating that Augustine and Aquinas held perhaps incorrect views on predestination, which they never would have claimed to be infallible, does not affect the rational integrity of Catholicism at all.

thank you - this needed to be clarified…

 

[ML561]

This whole subject is driving me to the point of a nervous breakdown. If I were not a Catholic I would be atheist for this reason alone. I still cannot understand what kind of God would create billions of people for the sole reason of sending most of them to Hell. I am speaking here of non-Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. I’ve been Catholic for almost 30 years (converted from Methodism) and should understand this by now but do not. Hopefully my parish priest or bishop can help before I end up in a mental hospital. (I’m serious.) Please keep me in your prayers. Peace.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Quoting all the individual comments would take too long, so I am going to speak in general – leaving Thomas aside for that isn’t my forte.
Here are some things to consider:

1. A lion or other animal which does solely what it’s instincts and conditioning dictate is not at all a good comparison with respect to man and free will. Adam chose no brute animal to be his mate, for none of them were satisfactory. Reducing humans to mere animals is not at all a worthy argument in the discussion of predestination.
2. John Calvin explicitly mentions the idea of double predestination in his discourse:

If it be evidently the result of the Divine will, that salvation is freely offered to some, and others are prevented from attaining it—this immediately gives rise to important and difficult questions, which are incapable of any other explication, than by the establishment of pious minds in what ought to be received concerning election and predestination—a question, in the opinion of many, full of perplexity; for they consider nothing more unreasonable, than that, of the common mass of mankind, some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction. But how unreasonably they perplex themselves will afterwards appear from the sequel of our discourse.

1. There is an idea of predestination in St. Paul, and in St. Augustine’s work.
   These preliminary discussions of the topic are not as logically tight as Calvin (or James White) would have people believe. It is improper (in my opinion) to attribute to Calvin any defensible notion of free will; That is not to say that some Calvinists may have an understanding of Calvin at variance with mine (I haven’t studied him in detail). James White argues regarding the passages in Romans that Paul must be speaking of individuals; and that God is spoken of actively predestining (an act) people. So that would imply that predestined to destruction is attributed to God as an active role, and is a tenant of 5 point Calvinists. (tuLip). I would grant the point to JW about the active verb, but note that when it comes to St. James and the idea of “Faith” – the inconsistency there is identical but on the Calvinist’s foot; switching meanings in mid text of the connotation of a word requires a clear reason on the author’s part.
2. In another thread, I began looking at the semantics of predestination – but the antagonist gave up. I would urge people to consider the texts of St. Paul and St. Augustine carefully – in st. Paul, he speaks of Esau and Jacob and predestination; but the question is also “what were they predestined TO”. There is a history where the biblical account does not match with what happened depending on how one interprets it. Notice Esau was quite blessed in his lifetime. These two figures are also both nations, as St Augustine notes – and in many ways that is more important to the people St. Paul is talking to. (eg: What good does the predestination of individuals do for THEM esp. regarding the PROMISE???)
3. But one important thing to grasp, also, is that St. Paul was attempting to stop up people’s mouths – his purpose would be equally served by showing an error in his opponents logic; as it would by discussing the full truth in detail. There are times when an opponent is not ready to make a conversion, and too much information just allows slack for them to hang themselves on again – rather than keeping pride in check which is much of the purpose of Paul’s writings in Romans.
4. No one has really addressed the variations on the meaning of forming clay for glory or wrath; Nor focused their attention on why the passages in Romans and elsewhere must (in Calvanistic opinion) prove the point of double predestination.
   I would caution everyone, that God can (and does) indeed over-rule free will; this is not contradictory to the position, however; analogically: even humans can override another person’s free will (by effects), by chemically altering the body – using electronic means to stimulate muscles, simple overpowering by force, etc. But in each of the scenarios the will itself can be aware of what is happening and fight against it, even if unsuccessfully. I think predestination arguments tend to oversimplify the means and consequences of God’s activity.

 

[distracted]

This whole subject is driving me to the point of a nervous breakdown. If I were not a Catholic I would be atheist for this reason alone. I still cannot understand what kind of God would create billions of people for the sole reason of sending most of them to Hell. I am speaking here of non-Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. I’ve been Catholic for almost 30 years (converted from Methodism) and should understand this by now but do not. Hopefully my parish priest or bishop can help before I end up in a mental hospital. (I’m serious.) Please keep me in your prayers. Peace.

i know the feeling…

but if you remind yourself that God is perfectly just and tht he loves everyone equally… maybe that will help…

Catholics and other Christians are the salt of the earth… put here to share God with [those you mention… buddhists, etc…]

if they never meet a Catholic (not likely)… God has other ways of saving them…

It is just easier to be saved if you are Catholic… (though it isn’t easy for anyone… as Jesus said).

Being Catholic is a gift from God… like everything He gives us, but that is his greatest gift of all… he wnats us to (expects us to) share that gift with everyone we can…

God knows you & I are powerless to (absolutely speaking) save others… but we can plant seeds… and let God (& others) water the seeds… & that’s all we can do

i have struggled with this myself… probably still am… but anyway… Thank God it is not left up to us alone to save people… We are so human, make so many mistakes that… well… we have no choice but to trust God to do most of it… .

 

[distracted]

No, I don’t believe it would.

And they would absolutely deny the idea mentioned earlier that God refrains from knowing the future of individuals, and what choices they would make. The best read on that particular subject is likely Boethius and the Consolation of Philosophy. Double predestination is outside of Catholicism; what Boethius calls Divine Providence is not.

well, maybe i am just speaking for myself (or mostly doing tht) because i don’t even know what i am going to do at any given moment…

again, God only knows what we are LIKELY to do… not what we will choose to do…

It doesn’t take away from His omniscience one bit that He chooses not to “know” our future… absolutely speaking… not one bit…

if anyone thinks it does… he doesn’t have a very big God…

 

[mathematician]

Implicit in some of the resonses to this debate is that we have a right to eternal life, and God has a duty to dish it out. It may be that those not predestined to eternal life are reaping the fruit of the human race’s arrogance.

 

[Luke65]

well, maybe i am just speaking for myself (or mostly doing tht) because i don’t even know what i am going to do at any given moment…

again, God only knows what we are LIKELY to do… not what we will choose to do…

It doesn’t take away from His omniscience one bit that He chooses not to “know” our future… absolutely speaking… not one bit…

if anyone thinks it does… he doesn’t have a very big God…

Actually, God is so big that this universe can’t contain Him! God exists outside of His Creation. And time is a construct of this universe - without space and matter there is no time. That’s what science tells us, and that’s what the Word tells us:

“In the beginning [time] God created the heavens [space] and the earth [matter].” (Gen. 1:1)

And that is what the Church has always taught, that time is a “creature” - a created thing. Therefore, since God exists outside of time, He knows everything that will ever happen in time - He knows “the end from the beginning.” God knew everything you would ever say, do, or think - every free will decision you would ever make - before He created the world. And that is what God means when He speaks of “predestination”.

On the universe having a beginning:

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow

 

[dianaiad]

i don’t have time to read such a lengthy article…

and i am NOT going to change my mind on this anyhow…

The Cathlic church teaches that we are saved but accepting Christ and doing everything he tells us… (not sinning, etc…)

“Don’t confuse me with facts?”

Distracted, don’t get me wrong about this; the only thing in the world that I can be accurately called ‘anti–’ is “anti-hypercalvinist.” It is an idea that, quite literally, gives me the shudders.

So I agree with your position. However, I do so after having read those articles; making a stand like yours, and then refusing to read what the leaders of your own church has to say about it, isn’t all that logical.

You are holding the right position for the wrong reason, in other words. Take the time; read the articles. It’s important. If you are afraid that they will change your mind, then, well…you REALLY need to read them.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I suppose a good example of predestination is Judas Iscariot. In Christian theology the crucifixion wasn’t a mishap, or something entirely unintended by God, so presumably God must have willed the means by which it was to come about - namely Judas’s treachery. But does the Bible in any way represent him as not being responsible for his deeds? As paradoxical as it may seem to us, the answer is that no it doesn’t. In the Bible God’s absolute predestination, and human free will, exist side by side.

That’s exactly how it looks here too. The Crucifixion was at once a great sin, & a great good - something intended by God & intended by men, but in completely different ways, so that God’s Will was carried out even by processes set in motion by sinful men. The Joseph story always STM to be a very good model for how this difference of value & difference of agency works.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Can anyone tell me what would be God’s purpose in predistining some to hell? Does that even make sense?

So Judas had no free will? He was placed on the earth to give Christ up? In other words, Judas has no culpability in his sin against Christ?

1 - we don’t know where he is. 2 - he had free agency, to sin or not; just like anyone else. “FW” means something else in Calvinist theology - “free agency”,the preferred phrase, IIRC, is about the same as what is meant by freedom to choose a course of action. FA in Calvinism does not make men robots - Calvinism is insistent on human responsibility; he was not at all a fatalist, nor did his theology require him to be.​

Lastly, God created hell to send all the people he predestined to go there?

RCism has to face the same problem. That’s what comes of not allowing Universalism - the position allowed amounts to believing that at least one human being (or fallen angel or both) will be damned. If there is a hell, no creature created it; so either it created itself; or God did so. People are not damned by accident - God’s Providence at the very least allows them to be damned;​

How in the world could anyone live under such a system of belief?

Easily. How can Catholics believe that a good, almighty, etc., God allows men to be damned ? Yet that is the position in the NT. Calvin didn’t invent Providence, or Hell, or sin, or responsibility, or God’s wrath against sinners.​

God is glorified by the damnation of the impenitent, for it shows forth His Righteousness in action against impenitent sin. If we die impenitent, Hell is no more than we deserve. Nobody deserves salvation: far from it: we all deserve damnation. God is unfair to Himself, in saving sinners.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Predestination and the such, to my way of thinking, is a misunderstanding of God and His relationship to time.

God is extemporal He is outside of time. So while God will know, at the moment of your birth, the name of your spouse and how many kids you will have and where your soul will end up it is NOT due to predestination.

The correct term is fore-ordination Which is also in the Bible.​

God is outside time so He can see it all as one instance and will know how the story ends.

Can God intervene to stop one from going to Hell? Of course, but at the moment of your birth He is also at the moment of intervention.

This is one of the many reasons that man cannot truly understand the nature of God.

Predestination is in the NT. As is the Wrath of God. And Hell. And other doctrines people are leery of. That doesn’t make those doctrines unBiblical, immoral, unChristian, or untrue.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…

You don’t seem to understand. Aquinas didn’t write the Gospel. Aquinas’ opinions are not necessarily divinely inspired.

I think no one would deny that Aquinas’ point of view is moot. One would have to conclude that God created some in less than his own image to legitimize this statement given by Aquinas.

That said, I am not bound to agree with everything every saint ever said. I am only bound to agree with the Church’s interpretation of God’s Word as a whole. Saints are entitled to their opinions.

Everyone from Adam to the last man standing has a choice to make, including Aquinas. I choose to believe that God created man for Heaven, every single one.

To claim that God must give up some part of his power

That would be absurd & false.​

in order to give us a gift is to negate Christ’s reason for dying on the cross. God did not die in vain. God died on the cross so that people who do not deserve to go to Heaven can repent and change their destiny, a thousand times if need be. As long as your intent is to be in God’s presence, his will for you is Heaven.

That makes God’s Liberty conditional on our choosing. ​

You must continue to live in God’s light. When you no longer decide to live in the light of God, YOU are choosing your destiny, not God.

If one doesn’t control his own destiny then what is the reason for living?

But we don’t. That does not make us robots - it makes us creatures responsible to God & subject to Him.​

What if Job had decided he must have been destined for hell? He may as well have. Was Job one of the elect? What keeps a person who is having a really horrible life from going out and becoming a serial killer or just plain mean?

The mercy of God.​

What you are doing in effect is taking away man’s culpability for the wrongs he commits. Anyone could just determine they are destined for hell and go in that direction.

That implies a total misunderstanding, for it does no such thing. BTW, we can think nothing that God does not know of - nothing in man can ever be hidden from Him. Which doctrine is immensely consoling & helpful.​

And as far as Aquinas’ theory of “Gold and Silver” and “Wood and Earth” or whatever, I believe there are degrees of sin, not souls. God made very soul perfect. Man is the sinner and therefor the blight on the soul, not God.

You yourself will determine whether you are gold, silver, wood or earth.

How is this last idea that any different from Pelagianism in some form ?​