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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
As did the Apostles: “What our eyes have seen…this we declare unto you”, remember ? The Apostles spoke from experience. The vacancy left by Judas was filled on the basis of experience. The Bible is largely experience-based.
What can’t be experienced, is the framing by God of His decrees, & other things “in God” - these have their effects, some of which we can experience: but we would know nothing of predestination if it were not revealed by God.
D
distracted
Guest
i like that last paragraph…Actually, God is so big that this universe can’t contain Him! God exists outside of His Creation. And time is a construct of this universe - without space and matter there is no time. That’s what science tells us, and that’s what the Word tells us:
“In the beginning [time] God created the heavens [space] and the earth [matter].” (Gen. 1:1)
And that is what the Church has always taught, that time is a “creature” - a created thing. Therefore, since God exists outside of time, He knows everything that will ever happen in time - He knows “the end from the beginning.” God knew everything you would ever say, do, or think - every free will decision you would ever make - before He created the world. And that is what God means when He speaks of “predestination”.
On the universe having a beginning:
“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow
but this: since God exists outside of time, He knows everything that will ever happen in time - He knows “the end from the beginning.” God knew everything you would ever say, do, or think - every free will decision you would ever make - before He created the world. And that is what God means when He speaks of “predestination”.
i don’t buy.
again, it doesn’t take away from God’s omniscience to say that He chooses to give us total free will and that He does not (therefore) KNOW what exactly we are going to choose… He does know absolutely EVERY possible choice we can make … and he knows what choices we ourselves Perceive that we have (don’t have)… and etc, etc… but He does not know what we will ultimately choose… because that is in our hands. For example: I could wake up tomorrow morning and decided to do my laundry or decided not to… Say i decide not to… and so i have no clean clothese to wear to some speacial event and so i don’t go to that special event and that is where God would have preferred me to go because it was there that he wanted me to meet my future husband… Say I didn’t pray about the laundry thing… so that was my first mistake…
OK, as per today’s scriture readings, marriage is not the end-all-to-be-all a lot of people (like me, at times) sometime think it is and so on… but in any case… I am just trying to make the point that the every- day choices we make, for one thing, may or may not have “monumental” consequences… yet everything we choose / do not choose has some kind of consequences… and… God isn’t going to step in and say, “Distracted, do your laundry” or “Distracted, go to this [whatever] event…” Even when/if I DO pray a bout what to do, i am not going to be given specific instructions… I am given CHOICE!! i am given Choice every freaking time… whether i like that answer or not… and most of the time i don’t. I want Godto be specific and tell me exactly what He wants… but He rarely does… He tells me general things. Like one time i heard the word (in answer to the question What do you want me to do): Truth - and that’s all i heard. I presume that was God because why would the devil care if i focused on Truth ?? Still, doesn’t tell me much, specifically speaking… so i found myself disappointed… and concluded that God does not want to take away CHOICE… (except, of course, He doesn’t want me to choose evil…)
True, if i miss my true vocation, it may be harder for me to continue being a Christian… ??? Who knows?? But i really don’t know what my vocation is anyhow… not sure anyone knows, absolutely speaking…
God… He is the one who knows… He knows human nature… he knows the nature of sin and the consequences thereof… (far better than we humans do, tht’s for sure…)…
but He does not know what we are going to choose… just what we are most likely to choose… He leaves things to us…
D
distracted
Guest
shows how well you know me to even suggest such a thing."You are holding the right position for the wrong reason, in other words.Take the time; read the articles. It’s important. If you are afraid that they will change your mind, then, well…you REALLY need to read them.
all i care about is truth… When i am confused about something i seek out information so as to come to a conclusion.
once truth is found, it is to be accepted… not rejected on the notion that it may not actually be truth…
in other words when one KNOWS something one KNOWS it…
I know that my handle is Distracted…
If someone told me that it was, say… Disturbed (which it probably should be
)… then that person is not telling me a truth…and so i continue to believe that I am Distracted…
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dianaiad
Guest
What, to suggest that in your search for religious truth, you actually read what religious leaders have to say about it? I’m not saying you have to accept what they say, but if you don’t even bother to read them, then those who talk to you can very reasonably dismiss what you have to say as coming from ignorance.
This is, I admit, a strange conversation for me. As I have already mentioned, hyperCalvinism, or “dual predestination” is a concept that is purely anathema to me. My feelings about it are extremely strong, and strongly negative. However, BECAUSE they are, I make certain that I read what others have to say about it so that I can reconcile my own feelings about it with the opinions of real religious scholars.
Even when, as in this case, those scholars are not of my own faith and support the opposite belief.
Uh, OK.Iall i care about is truth… When i am confused about something i seek out information so as to come to a conclusion.
once truth is found, it is to be accepted… not rejected on the notion that it may not actually be truth…
in other words when one KNOWS something one KNOWS it…
I know that my handle is Distracted…
If someone told me that it was, say… Disturbed (which it probably should be
and so i continue to believe that I am Distracted…
P
Peter_J
Guest
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DavidMark
Guest
About Heaven and Hell:
One view is a gradation of degrees, in this world, as well as the next. We cannot truly appreciate the stations of those who rank closer to God, just as lower orders of living things cannot comprehend what people comprehend. All are provided for by God. Hell is under the control of God. Nothing isn’t. We continue to progress in the Hereafter towards the True One, the Great Attractor, the Best Beloved. God has many names. This world is like the womb of the next world. We should be developing spiritual attributes, or fruits of the spirit, to be used there. If not, we will be handicapped. Everything has its own paradise, even a tree, when it bears its fruit, or a mineral, when it develops into a pure crystal, or a soul, when it is forgiven and given access to the river of life, in the solely spiritual realm, which is not subject to space and time. But true paradise is being in the presence of the Lord, and this was attained by people in this world, who may not even have known, and even opposed Him…such a realization would be hellish.
**Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise. Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom. **(Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 77)
One view is a gradation of degrees, in this world, as well as the next. We cannot truly appreciate the stations of those who rank closer to God, just as lower orders of living things cannot comprehend what people comprehend. All are provided for by God. Hell is under the control of God. Nothing isn’t. We continue to progress in the Hereafter towards the True One, the Great Attractor, the Best Beloved. God has many names. This world is like the womb of the next world. We should be developing spiritual attributes, or fruits of the spirit, to be used there. If not, we will be handicapped. Everything has its own paradise, even a tree, when it bears its fruit, or a mineral, when it develops into a pure crystal, or a soul, when it is forgiven and given access to the river of life, in the solely spiritual realm, which is not subject to space and time. But true paradise is being in the presence of the Lord, and this was attained by people in this world, who may not even have known, and even opposed Him…such a realization would be hellish.
**Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise. Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom. **(Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 77)
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
The arguments she(?) has made are not directly against statements of the present pope – and should he correct her, I seriously doubt she would argue.
Gottle of Geer is a rather subtle poster in some ways; over the years I have noted his(?) tendency to grab a certain facile view of what other posters say – not that this is a crime or anything; but it is easy to not think carefully about what was said when these views appear.
Distracted does not appear to have the gift of phrasing things well (politically?) – but then, some passages of scripture also hyper-emphasize certain details to the (temporary) exclusion of complete precision. eg: The so called “contradictions” in scripture… but, Scripture is a lamp to my feet, not the illumination of the sun across the entire landscape. People only see a little bit at a time, and scripture is much like a collection of forum conversations – meandering from one aspect to the next, organically – not computationally. sigh
Even though most think it is, irrationality is not the square root of all evil – but it is the root of some that is rational.
The idea of potency and actuality are two things which are exceedingly difficult to grasp with respect to God. His Knowing – is it “participation” passive, “participation active” or responsibility for something? These issues show up perennially in the pre-destination discussions from pelagians, Thomas, Agustine, the so-called semi-pelagians (Which I find quite humorous that a Greek Orthodox teaching at a Catholic College would claim … now that I know the history of the term!) and even Calvin, Luther, etc.
What did Distracted actually mean by what she said? Is it that God does not plan ahead of time the specific man she would marry – but that he planned for marriage in general? Is his knowledge in her marriage a participation – as in – she married a non-catholic, outside the church, and therefore God does not Know the marriage, etc. etc. (I am not accusing, I am just showing the range of subtlety).
This last idea is one that I think most people gloss over when talking about the subject of pre-destination; Man is unable to do the good by himself – because he must have contact with the good (God) – and by that come to Know God in order to do the Good. (However s/he comes to that knowledge in time isn’t my point – God made all that is. )
As a sort of philosophical / prose(aic) statement, I would say this:
To be one flesh with Christ Jesus is a beautiful way to describe what faith is all about. One who hears the spirit (voice of God) by whom the virgin conceived the son-of-God; learns what Good is from the Father who is giving away his son in marriage – and by taking the Word and Spirit into one’s heart, one comes to wed the son of God, receiving the substance of his son and becoming one flesh eternally. (Amen).
It is possible for God to prepare in advance (predestine) that he shall force some to convert; but that is similar to a forced marriage – possible, but tenuous at best; a captive wife led on high! (He may do it for some…) But will she have as much glory as the free wife?
I think it better to assume that for the most part God prepares (predestines / fore-ordains / fore-plays ) to woo his spouse in a courtship. After all, he made us this way…
There are two figures who one can enter into a familiar (marriage) relationship in this world – the father of lies, or the Truth itself. The father of lies is only half Truth at best and accuses everyone of everything.
Pax Tecum.
B
Bob_Crowley
Guest
I have a problem with the business of predestination and free-will. I’ve said elsewhere that the night my father died, he appeared in my room, apologised, we argued and conversed, and then he gave this almighty scream and disappeared..
I read this short story about how this woman converted from Presbyterianism…
They (some?) apparently believe that God created some people for Heaven and some for Hell…:hypno::coffeeread:
I thought:
What!!!
Who could possibly believe such a preposterous thing? True, it isn’t the first time I’ve heard of it but for some reason it hit me especially hard last night as i read this story… :banghead::banghead:
Have you run into this kind of thing when talking to people about religion?
There is that one scripture about… something about being predestined for… [something]
i don’t have my Bible handy…
anyway, i believe that God, when He created us and gave us free will, chose NOT to know our futures. I believe (know) that He allowed us to be total “gods” over our destinies… our choices…
During the proceedings however, at one stage he blurted out, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I argued back, saying that couldn’t be right. He then said, “Oh, it’s right, all right. You can see that from here.” Later in the same peculiar session, he said “I was WILLING!” (to act in the cruel, stupid, vindictive way he had).
So as I see it both predestination and free will are involved.
Now my first Protestant pastor was also the wisest and most prophetic man I’ve met. At one stage he said, “I think you’ll be doing cleaning. You won’t like it much, and you won’t be doing it for long, but I think the Lord will just want you to hear about a ghost.” Now even to me, and I’d gotten to know his accuracy by that time, this sounded right over the top.
Now he died in 1992. In 2006 I did a cleaning job for a short time, and I didn’t like it. But as I was being shown around one place, the bloke showing me suddenly remarked “This place is haunted.” It turned out a former manager had hanged himself back in the 1960’s. It was common knowledge amongst the staff a ghost was there as unusual things used to happen. For example one night, while the bloke showing me the shop was there, all the stock jumped off one entire row of shelves and landed on the floor.
I think I was expected to get a mass said for the ghost, as I used to get rather positive feelings when I was there, and nothing untoward happened. Now the old pastor could say, about 15 years beforehand, that he thought this unlikely event would happen. And it did.
For that to happen, quite a number of events, involving my free will and that of others, has to occur, in the succeeding 15 years. Now he could only predict that event because God was telling him, which is why he was so accurate generally.
It sure wasn’t coincidence.
H
Huiou_Theou
Guest
Here is an example of predestination, in the sense that I was talking about – eg: wooing, or encouraging, as the Angel does here (although Tobit doesn’t know whence he came from). Notice, also, in the conversation that the Angel takes for granted that Tobit will not be amazed at the statement itself and also, although the Angel was sent by God because of something prepared long ago, – the angel does not know the actual future. The predestination, then, is conditional in this case – although God could have forced the issue if necessary (and appears to be guaranteeing part of the future)… there is no direct sign of force here.
hope this helps some…
hope this helps some…
C
Charles_Darwin
Guest
I do. If he is real it makes perfect sense. For he has not provided me with one shread of evidence of his existence. Also i would see no reason to worship him, as i see him as a ghastly creature. So if he exists he most certainly created me for hell.They (some?) apparently believe that God created some people for Heaven and some for Hell…
I thought:
What!!!
Who could possibly believe such a preposterous thing?
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
The entire uni-verse is a shread of evidence – perhaps it isn’t sufficient for you, but whomever made the universe is responsible for it, you say!
Is then everything ugly, have you never seen a beautiful person whom you might take as spouse, friend, another YOU?
Aye, when (IMHO) you stand before God and call him Ghastly, it will be hard for you to find an excuse if you use that argument!
Best wishes… You’re at 928 posts right now, (though of course that number changes as time goes on), almost a regular member here at CAF.
Keep up the humor.
LOL.
H
happilycatholic
Guest
God didn’t. Please read Dave Armstrong. He’s a valuable resource in explaining the catholic Church’s position on this issue. It’s what saved my sanity on the matter.
God DID NOT, DOES NOT, WILL NOT create souls for the purpose of populating hell.
Don’t worry about that one.
R
rbiaca
Guest
Aren’t you not demonstrating arrogance in your shock regarding one persons supernatural beliefs, when you in fact have a set of supernatural beliefs that may be deemed preposterous by the 5.5 billion non-Catholics in the world?
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rbiaca
Guest
God is omniscient.
That means God knows everything before it even happens.
God has always known that he would create a particular person. God, before the person was even born, knew whether or not the choices they made in their life, would have them ending up in heaven, hell or purgatory.
God knows the outcome, even if the outcome is hell, God creates the life anyway.
If God does not know the outcome, God is not omniscient and is therefor not God.
God creates life, knowing full well, said life will end up in hell at the end of her life.
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happilycatholic
Guest
I’ve been away for a few days, but I have one question:
Could it be that Calvin twisted the catholic Church’s position on predestination, I mean tweaked it just enough so that it would endorse his own belief and thereby endorsing those who would follow that belief as those who are predistined to Heaven?
Could it be that Calvin twisted the catholic Church’s position on predestination, I mean tweaked it just enough so that it would endorse his own belief and thereby endorsing those who would follow that belief as those who are predistined to Heaven?
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Gottle of Geer;5568779## That makes God’s Liberty conditional on our choosing. :eek: said:
Maybe it does but not on my part. You make it sound like God is the purveyor of sin. As if God has sinful thoughts. Do you realize what you must believe in order for what you just stated to hold a grain of truth?
You make the sad mistake of believing that if sin exists, God must have created it, as most Calvinists do. God separated light from dark. That’s as far as it goes. Nothing in Scripture tells us how sin was created, only how man came to accept it into the world. Our first Mother and Father accepted sin into their lives and thereby into the world as a whole. Before that, we were separated from sin by God. Now why would God do that if he created sin as a means for us to get to Hell? God DID NOT create Adam and Eve to sin, they FREELY ACCEPTED sin. God did not have to create sin for it to exist. Sin exists in the way that shadows do. If there were no light, there would be no shadows. When light was created, so was the potential for dark.
What you and others here are trying to say is that if we have complete faith in God, we can accept that He created and perpetuates sin for the good of His will and that there is a certain amount of mystery in that. I’m saying that because I have full faith in God, I accept that He can effect His will in spite of sin and that God exists completely outside of sin even though he *allows *it to exist in the world and THAT is the mystery.
It is the nature of human beings to attribute an answer to everything and to accept nothing on faith. That is why the doctrine of Sola Scriptura exists. We as humans, have to have something tangible to hold on to. We can make ourselves believe that the Bible is divinely inspired and the Word of the Lord, but we can’t believe that sin exists totally and COMPLETELY outside of Heaven? (Oh yeah, cause to believe that God has sinful thoughts so that we too can have sinful thoughts and to believe that God created sin is to believe that it is with Him now in Heaven, ever think of that?)
SIN IS EARTHLY, NOT HEAVENLY and therefore NOT a creation of God. Everything created by God is with God now. God is with everysingle thing created by Him.
How can you say that of sin?
Human nature is such that we are reluctant to merely believe that sin exists outside of God’s will and in spite of the fact that it does exists, God played no part in creating it and certainly not for any bazarr idea that it helps God accomplish his will.
As far as I’m concerned, it’s a mystery until I have the answers from God.
Well, first of all what I said cannot be attributed to a claim against Original Sin. I did not say that man isn’t stained with Original Sin. I said the soul is pure of sin when God creates it. If that were not true, then Mary couldn’t have been born immaculately and Jesus could not have been a sin-less human being here on earth.
So you are incorrect and your conflicting POV, interesting as it may be, is not catholic and should be pointed out as such. You explain these theories as if they are fact. They are simply a different position on the matter.
No one could read my post as being in line with Pelagianism, except those promoting Calvinism. (common accusation, and simple to say the least) When our soul enters our body is when it becomes stained by original sin. God doesn’t create sin, man enjoyed sin for the first time and set it into motion. God created a sin-less world. Sin only existed in darkness (hell).
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dianaiad
Guest
It is an interesting exercise in logic.
If God is omnipotent, and man is His creation, then He could have created them to be, or behave, in any fashion He wished. That’s what ‘all power’ means–He has all the power, and the power to do all.
If God is omniscient, He knows everything there is to know. Therefore He knows what is happening at any point in time, or at any time. That’s what “all knowing” means.
If some of His creations make bad decisions, then He a: created them so that they could and would, and b; knew that they could and would; after all, that’s how He created them.
Therefore, if some of them are going to screw up and earn eternal hellfire, then He is responsible; He created them, and, in creating them, deliberately created them so that they would make those choices.
If He created all things, then He also created the hell that He is sending them to.
He is, in sum, a rather sadistic puppet master who throws His own creations into eternal hellfire for the flaws He deliberately carved into them.
(I already warned people that I have a problem with hyperCalvinism.)
So…if we assume that He is both omnipotent and omniscient, we also claim that He is omnibenevolent (impossible, if any of His creations are punished in hell for flaws that He deliberately placed in them) It is a seemingly insoluble paradox.
Some explain it by saying that just because He knows what will happen, it doesn’t make Him responsible for what happens…but that’s not correct.
It is a matter of law all over the world that the creator is responsible for the creation: the carpenter who builds a house with flaws IS responsible when it falls down and kills someone. Ask any judge. Anywhere. So if God deliberately creates a being in such a way that he WILL choose badly, whose fault is that?
But we, as Christians, believe that God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. If we are His creations, then all the above applies. There isn’t any way to get around it, is there?
So how do we reconcile these things?
I don’t know how mainstream Christianity does it. I’m not certain that it can, honestly. I can’t.
I’ve had a completely different take on the whole thing from the time I was tiny. My own belief system (LDS) has a completely different viewpoint. Yes, we too believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent–and all loving, as well. However, we also believe that we are God’s children, not His creations, and that makes a universe of difference.
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distracted
Guest
for one thing, you have that one Quote attributed to someone else when it was mine…
but in anycase…
you seem to assume that i haven’t read any spirtual books or something… and/or that i don’t want to because i’m afraid it will disagree w/ what i believe…
Like i said, i have read this and that and … lots of books… When i decline to read books on other viewpoints not in line with the RCC teachings… it is not because i choose to stay ignorant but because i don’t have time to waste of false-hoods…
i have limited time… just like everyone. I am a finite being… I have to be choosey about what i read… I’m sorry if you think that makes me ignorant or narrow-minded or whatever… I have found truth in the RCC and i don’t need to learn all about the un-truths that are out there…
D
distracted
Guest
you’re right … it shouldn’t … if it isn’t true… but uh… not the case…
and i’m not answering your ad hominem comments anymore…
why people have to attack others on a Christian forum is beyond me…
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