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distracted
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i wish you’d give an example because i feel i phrased things about as well as possible, esp in Post 123. Has anyone here read it???
i feel very misunderstood here… although i do appreciate that You (if no one else) are at least trying to u/stand me…
i just brought up the issue of how maybe God wanted me to marry a particular person so as to show how is that we have CHOICE…every step of the way in this world… in eveything we do/ don’t do.
Because i have ptsd, i often do not want to be around humanoids… since they are what caused the ptsd in the 1st place… so i don’t go here, don’t go there… Sometimes i feel i am missing out… not meeting certain people maybe God wants me to meet… etc so maybe i am messing with my future… or something…maybe i am not even in conformity w/ God’s will
but even though it would be hard for me to make choices other than the ones i usually make, it is still MY choice to not socialize much…that being said, i do feel that i don’t have a whole lot of “choice” when it comes to the symptoms of ptsd… i can change a lot of things but i can’t change the past that caused the ptsd…
anyway, my whole point was that God doesn’t tell us what to do (other than the Commandments of Christ) or what choices to make…
Can you agree w/ that??
He knows that i am likely NOT to choose to becme a Baptist tomorrow… (VERY VERY unlikely)… but still, i could make that choice if i … was dumb enough to think about it for a long time and consider this, consider that… convince myself that it was a reasonable thing to do…
and some Cahtolics do that… Again, He knows i am NOT LIKELY to do that… but it is a possibility… because of my freedom to do whatever i want w/ my life…
so anyhow… i don’t know how i could possibly make myself any clearer…
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dianaiad
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Sorry about that…but my point stands. If you don’t read the arguments for a position written by the people who actually MADE those arguments, you are arguing from ignorance. If you restrict yourself to reading only those spiritual books written by those who disagree with that argument, you are not only arguing from ignorance, you are arguing from prejudice.for one thing, you have that one Quote attributed to someone else when it was mine…
but in anycase…
you seem to assume that i haven’t read any spirtual books or something… and/or that i don’t want to because i’m afraid it will disagree w/ what i believe…
distracted;5581663 Like i said said:
being… I have to be choosey about what i read… I’m sorry if you think that makes me ignorant or narrow-minded or whatever… I have found truth in the RCC and i don’t need to learn all about the un-truths that are out there…
That’s fine…but aren’t the early church fathers, like Aquinus, Athanasius, et al very much a part of your faith?
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Charles_Darwin
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What makes you think it is a “who”?
The entire uni-verse is a shread of evidence – perhaps it isn’t sufficient for you, but whomever made the universe is responsible for it, you say!
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i feel i know enough about Presbyterianism (and etc) to make comments on their beliefs… and it is always a Chrstian duty to help people to find Truth and avoid error…
if i waited until i had a degree in Religion to say antyhin… many souls could be endangered … Not that i can “save” anyone but i can certainly point out inconsistencies, etc…
those are some that i HAVE read… wasn’t sure what authors you were speaking of…
have to say i haven’t read much of Aquinas… but i’ve read the Early Church Fathers…
i would definitely like to read more, though… should probably get that Jergens set… i think that’s the right name (?)… about the early Fathers…
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because you are a who…
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happilycatholic
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distracted:
I believe this is what happens when those like Calvin attempt to define God (and twist the words of ECF to support their position) and His saving grace in human terms. There are those who seek to bind God in the constraints of their minds insomuchas they can *understand *God. Hence…Calvin.
Those that are interpreting Aquinas, Augustine and Paul to mean that God creates souls to be sinful don’t understand the concept of Creation (with a capital “C”) or salvation through Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.
What I’m worried about are those that have expressed despair on this thread because of the concept of predestination. I am concerned they will believe that Christ gave his life in vain and there are those of us who cannot benefit from His Gift.
Do you agree? I think this is getting into territory that may do more harm than good. I cannot believe this is the sum of Christ’s Gospel message to the world.
“Believe and ye might be saved if ye are supposed to be”.
I believe this is what happens when those like Calvin attempt to define God (and twist the words of ECF to support their position) and His saving grace in human terms. There are those who seek to bind God in the constraints of their minds insomuchas they can *understand *God. Hence…Calvin.
Those that are interpreting Aquinas, Augustine and Paul to mean that God creates souls to be sinful don’t understand the concept of Creation (with a capital “C”) or salvation through Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.
What I’m worried about are those that have expressed despair on this thread because of the concept of predestination. I am concerned they will believe that Christ gave his life in vain and there are those of us who cannot benefit from His Gift.
Do you agree? I think this is getting into territory that may do more harm than good. I cannot believe this is the sum of Christ’s Gospel message to the world.
“Believe and ye might be saved if ye are supposed to be”.
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Charles_Darwin
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and?
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dianaiad
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If the…creator of the universe was aware of, and in charge of, the creation, then it is a ‘who.’
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what is ECF? :
i totally agree & that was the reason for OP… I have read stories about people being broght to despair over this … worried about where their loved ones went after death, etc…
I wish i had known long ago how to refute one interpretation of scripture that caused me a lot of torment… can’t recall exact words but soemthing about how once a person has known Christ and then falls away… there is no longer any sacrifice (etc)… I can look it up @ home if i remember… but I thought yrs ago that maybe the person who goes away from Christ cannot go back again… that it wouldn’t do any good.
but that is not w hat that passage means… it doesn’t mean a backslider is hopeless… I still don’t know exactly wht the passage means & don’t have my Bible /Concordance handy… but I’ve since learned that the Church teaches the unforgivable sin is to reject Christ’s forgivenss… not to backslide & never repent…
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dianaiad
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False dichotomy, distracted. You don’t need a degree to simply read what the believers have to say.
OK…I can’t remember the names of those early church fathers who were writing about predestination…
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whatever it was (didnt’ recall that subject in what i read) it wasn’t the idea that God created people for Hell … that is the most utterly ridiculous teaching i’ve ever heard…
no wonder people stay away from Christianity…
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dianaiad
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Who’s on first?
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distracted
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false dichotomy? What does that have to do with anything?
a dichotomy is a two-pronged idea that seems contradictory… or something like that…
i think you meant some other disparaging remark…
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dianaiad
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OK.
First. I share your opinion regarding the idea, 'K? (grin)
Second, my point with you (or whoever it was…I’m getting really confused now…) was that one should read the writings of those who actually teach a doctrine, and do that first. THEN go to those who disagree with it, if you can’t refute it yourself. But don’t ever go to the disagreers first, and CERTAINLY not ‘only.’
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dianaiad
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Actually, it is an argument that presents only two possibilities, when there are actually many more.false dichotomy? What does that have to do with anything?
a dichotomy is a two-pronged idea that seems contradictory… or something like that…
i think you meant some other disparaging remark…
For instance, It is a false dichotomy to yell at your kid “George, get in here! If you stay out in the rain any longer, you are going to catch your death of cold!”
Mom is presenting only two possibilities: If the kid comes in and gets dry, he’ll stay healthy. If he stays outside, he’ll catch cold and die.
C’mon, we’ve both done this. We know how it works.
In reality, there are a great many more things that could happen.
The kid could stay out and just get marvelously wetter, splashing happily in puddles having the time of his life.
He could get struck by lightning and get blown out of his incredibly expensive Nikes.
He could come inside…and catch a cold from Uncle Toby who’s sniffling by the stove.
He could come inside, trip on the steps and break his leg.
Lots of choices there, y’see.
In this case, it was a false dichotomy to claim, as you did, that the only choices in this case are a: to get a degree in theology, or b: not read anything written by those who support the argument with which you disagree.
It only takes an hour or two to read an article, or treatise. Doesn’t even take a whole semester, or even a quarter. A little while on a Sunday should do it. So–at least three choices.
By the way, that wasn’t a disparaging remark. If you don’t want to get called on for using faulty logic, don’t use it.
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I’m getting confused myself… nothing new there…
You are LDS…
i know the truth about God (what i need to know) so i don’t need to study your religion… I know something about it but what i know turns me off, frankly, to the possibility of knowing that that i don’t know… and besides, even if that wernet the case… I have the RCC which the Church Christ established…
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from Oxford Dictionary:
dichotomy: division into two, esp a sharply defined one…
seems i was more right than you… but uh… am i the only one who is still a little confused? I know how to use the word but i don’t u/stand this particular definitiion…
oh well…
at least I am more right than you are…
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you didn’t use the term False dichotomy correctly…
i have used no false logic…
just because i talk about ABC doesn’t mean i am excluding XYZ as a possible… by not mentioning XYZ…
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