why would any rational person believe this???!!!

[dianaiad]

I’m getting confused myself… nothing new there…

You are LDS…

yep. Says so right up there on top of the post somewhere.

i know the truth about God (what i need to know) so i don’t need to study your religion…

Ok.

I know something about it but what i know turns me off, frankly, to the possibility of knowing that that i don’t know… and besides, even if that wernet the case… I have the RCC which the Church Christ established…

As long as you don’t try to argue against my beliefs and present yourself as an expert, not a problem. But you were arguing against predestination, and then when you were presented with writings by those from your own faith that supported the idea, you simply said that you didn’t need to read them, because…well, I think your argument was along the lines of 'because. "

That will get you into trouble, eventually. Oh, not if you keep your beliefs and faith to yourself, but if you go out and debate people about it?

Yeah, well…if you do that, you need to have done your research. Not just with those who agree with your position, but also with those who support the doctrine you are fighting.

It’s like being an anti-Catholic; just how likely is it that this anti is going to know what you really believe? If all he reads is the anti-Catholic stuff, do you think he truly knows Catholicism?

If all you read is the anti-Calvinist stuff, or the anti-predestination stuff, can you really know the doctrine you dislike so much? Can you really understand why it is you dislike it, or how to reconcile your instinctual dislike for it with the very real scriptures with which these people support their views?

Shoot, I’m majorly into professor mode today. Sorry about that…

 

[dianaiad]

you didn’t use the term False dichotomy correctly…

i have used no false logic…

just because i talk about ABC doesn’t mean i am excluding XYZ as a possible… by not mentioning XYZ…

It is if the reason you claim you choose “Y” is because you can’t choose “Z”…as if there are only two choices in the matter, when in reality you can choose A, B, C…

You were presenting these two (A: don’t read or B: get a degree) as if no other choices existed—the reason you chose A is because you can’t do B, as if there were no options in between those two extremes.

But there are other options. The fact that you didn’t mention them, but presented your argument as if there weren’t any other options, is what makes it a false dichotomy.

 

[distracted]

yep. Says so right up there on top of the post somewhere.

Ok.

As long as you don’t try to argue against my beliefs and present yourself as an expert, not a problem. But you were arguing against predestination, and then when you were presented with writings by those from your own faith that supported the idea, you simply said that you didn’t need to read them, because…well, I think your argument was along the lines of 'because. "

free coutnry… i can argue all i want from “alleged” ignorance… or whatever word you put on it… that’s my American right. I take the 1st… and furthermore, I don’t have to read a 500-pg book on eating, for example… to know such things as 1) that i need to eat to live… and 2) that some foods are better than others and that dirt, for example is not food, and etc… and so forth…

if you do that, you need to have done your research.

define research… I’ve done enough to know that i don’t like the Mormon reliiogn… Did you know, Mr. Research, that the word Mormon in Chinese means “gates of Hell”?? Interesting, since Jesus said that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church… (the RCC)…

b If all you read is the anti-Calvinist stuff, or the anti-predestination stuff, can you really know the doctrine you dislike so much? Can you really understand why it is you dislike it, or how to reconcile your instinctual dislike for it with the very real scriptures with …

Please refer to above response.

If i marry someone who looks like Brad Pitt and loves me with all his heart and is faithful to me and we are deliriously happy together & etc, etc… why in the world would i want to “study”, say… uh… Ted Kennedy … as a possible spouse??uch:uch:

yikes… can hardly even say that without feeling like… uh… uh… never mind. I’m supposed to be a Christian…

In any case, you get my drift…

 

[distracted]

It
You were presenting these two (A: don’t read or B: get a degree) as if no other choices existed—.

hmmm… tha’ts strange, i thought YOU were the one doing that… … as if there is no other way to “research” but your way…

the reason you chose A is because you can’t do B, as if there were no options in between those two extremes.

there isn’t… if the only choices are You are Going to Hell if God made You to Go to Hell And There’s No Hope for You if That’s the Case and (choice #2) Choice 1 is Not True… They cna’t both be right.

Same thing with terms Roman Catholic and Mormon

But there are other options. The fact that you didn’t mention them, but presented your argument as if there weren’t any other options, is what makes it a false dichotomy.

you are not using that word correctly…

and my blood sugar is getting low so i am not going to explain all the details concerning the elusive & mysterious word Dichotomy…

 

[dianaiad]

free coutnry… i can argue all i want from “alleged” ignorance… or whatever word you put on it… that’s my American right. I take the 1st… and furthermore, I don’t have to read a 500-pg book on eating, for example… to know such things as 1) that i need to eat to live… and 2) that some foods are better than others and that dirt, for example is not food, and etc… and so forth…

Another false dichotomy. (grin)

You DO know that there are many other methods for finding that stuff out other than reading a '500 page book on eating," right?

define research.

“research.” = 'go look it up." If Mr. Aardvark claims that Y is good for you, and Mrs. Zzyziy says that Mr. Aardvark is an idiot for saying Y is good for you, then you need to read both Mr. Aardvark and Mrs. Zzyzyx, UNLESS it is about a religious GROUP. Then you need only read what the believers think, because you are already your own expert on what you think.

Call it a quirk of mine.

. I’ve done enough to know that i don’t like the Mormon reliiogn.

OK.

I didn’t know that we were changing the channel, so to speak, to the Mormon religion (which one?). I thought we were talking about predestination, a topic we both happen to agree on.

.

Did you know, Mr. Research, that the word Mormon in Chinese means “gates of Hell”?? Interesting, since Jesus said that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church… (the RCC)…

Oh, good grief.

I took this one to one of my rhetorics professors, who happens to have a Doctorate in linguistics and a Chinese wife. He is fluent in four Chinese dialects, and is not LDS. He’s not even Mormon. I asked him about it, and I thought he was going to roll on the floor laughing. Nearly dropped his beer, he did…

This was one of those Ed Decker things (and if you got all your information about Mormonism from Ed Decker, you REALLY need to pay attention to what I’m trying to tell you here!) in which the antis got really sneaky. There are thirty Chinese characters which have the reading (or approximate sound of) “Mo,” the first character in the two character symbol for “Mo-Men,” which is as close as we could get to the actual reproduction of the sound of the word. This is, by the way, standard practice for transcribing foreign names into Chinese; they pick the character by the sound; the one that is the closest to the sound of the foreign word is the one picked.

The symbol closest to the correct English sound means 'smoothed over by hands." with the “men” character 'gateway." THAT means “hand smoothed gateway.” The anti’s actually substituted another character with the sound ‘mo’ which means ‘devil.’ The two characters are not at all alike…and only people who know Chinese catch the difference. Just how sneaky and underhanded is that?

Ed Decker lied. What a surprise. Do you see now why it might be a good idea to actually ask someone who knows? How long have you been waiting to spring that bit, and how many times have you pulled it, losing credibility every time you do?

Y’know, if the truth isn’t enough to discredit your opponent, perhaps you shouldn’t be trying to discredit him.

.

Please refer to above response.

Given the nature of the above response, do you really want me to do that?

.

If i marry someone who looks like Brad Pitt and loves me with all his heart and is faithful to me and we are deliriously happy together & etc, etc… why in the world would i want to “study”, say… uh… Ted Kennedy … as a possible spouse??uch:uch:

You wouldn’t…but you are comparing apples and oranges.

Remember, I’m not the one bringing up Mormonism and how you don’t like it. That would be you. You love your faith, and that’s a good thing. YOu have decided not to become LDS, and that’s fine…your reasons are your own.

My…lecture…only applies when and if you try to debate about it. Make your own decisions upon any criteria you want to, but if you are going to try to persuade anybody else, or debate someone, you really need to have a better argument than “I’m too busy to read what the folks who believe this have to say about it; you are wrong, you’d better believe me, and that’s that.”

.

yikes… can hardly even say that without feeling like… uh… uh… never mind. I’m supposed to be a Christian…

In any case, you get my drift…

Now, now…you KNOW that Brad Pitt is a flaming liberal and a Scientologist, not to mention all involved with Angelina Jolie. (I think. That over yet?) Oh, and he’s SHORT.

Still want him?

Me? I’m still looking for Samwise Gangee. I want him.

 

[dianaiad]

hmmm… tha’ts strange, i thought YOU were the one doing that… … as if there is no other way to “research” but your way…

Nope, that was you: saying that the only choices you had were to get a degree or not bother to read at all.

My way is…go see what they have to say. Not hard.

there isn’t… if the only choices are You are Going to Hell if God made You to Go to Hell And There’s No Hope for You if That’s the Case and (choice #2) Choice 1 is Not True… They cna’t both be right.

Well, remember, I happen to agree with you on the doctrine of predestination. The problem is, how are you going to argue with believers in it if you don’t know the scriptures and their actual reasoning? You are left with…'well, but, but…I just KNOW, that’s all!"

which, by the way, is just fine. No problem with it at all,

unless you are trying to convince someone else.

Same thing with terms Roman Catholic and Mormon

Huh? Look, why are we even talking about Mormonism? This thread isn’t about Mormonism, I haven’t brought it up…in fact, you have, and the only reason you have is to do an appeal to association…'she can’t be right about this, because she’s a MORMON."

Well, that’s a problem for you. Y’see, Mormons AGREE with you about predestination. We don’t believe in it. So if simply being Mormon makes me wrong about that, then…see the problem?

you are not using that word correctly…

and my blood sugar is getting low so i am not going to explain all the details concerning the elusive & mysterious word Dichotomy…

Oh, go eat. Then when you get back, go here.

You will find a very extensive explanation of both dichotomy and false dichotomy, and you will see how you committed the latter.

See you later…

 

[happilycatholic]

what is ECF? :

Oops, *the *ECFs (Early Church Fathers ) That would’ve probably made it more clear.

i totally agree & that was the reason for OP… I have read stories about people being broght to despair over this … worried about where their loved ones went after death, etc…

I wish i had known long ago how to refute one interpretation of scripture that caused me a lot of torment… can’t recall exact words but soemthing about how once a person has known Christ and then falls away… there is no longer any sacrifice (etc)… I can look it up @ home if i remember… but I thought yrs ago that maybe the person who goes away from Christ cannot go back again… that it wouldn’t do any good.

but that is not w hat that passage means… it doesn’t mean a backslider is hopeless… I still don’t know exactly wht the passage means & don’t have my Bible /Concordance handy… but I’ve since learned that the Church teaches the unforgivable sin is to reject Christ’s forgivenss… not to backslide & never repent…

I’m so glad God revealed the Truth to you about this matter . It’s what the Gospels declare…Good News!!

 

[4EverHis]

Oki the truth is that God made everyone for Heaven, even though not everyone will be saved. Predestination just means that He’s out of time so He sees who is going where as if it’s happening now. But He gave us free will… and He doesn’t want ANYONE to perish. Certainly no one was created for hell. I don’t understand how people can believe that either.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

why would a What create a Who?

Only a who can create a who…

What on earth are you talking about.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

What on earth are you talking about.

She didn’t. I didn’t. What do you ask on earth?
I was going to actually be intelligent, but I think I have an ulcer after reading one or two posts. So, I will leave it at this: I think that poodles come from poodles. Birds come from birds. Intelligence comes from intelligence.

youtube.com/watch?v=yieUeAyWbbo&feature=related

 

[dianaiad]

She didn’t. I didn’t. What do you ask on earth?
I was going to actually be intelligent, but I think I have an ulcer after reading one or two posts. So, I will leave it at this: I think that poodles come from poodles. Birds come from birds. Intelligence comes from intelligence.

youtube.com/watch?v=yieUeAyWbbo&feature=related

Don’t get all rational on us there. It confuses things.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

She didn’t. I didn’t. What do you ask on earth?
I was going to actually be intelligent, but I think I have an ulcer after reading one or two posts. So, I will leave it at this: I think that poodles come from poodles. Birds come from birds. Intelligence comes from intelligence.

youtube.com/watch?v=yieUeAyWbbo&feature=related

I too think poodles come from poodles and birds come from birds, who on earth doesn’t?

However you don’t think Intelligence comes from intelligence, you think god came from nowhere out of nothing.

Still does not addess why the origin of the universe would be a “who”. By your logic above, universes come from universes

 

[rbiaca]

It is an interesting exercise in logic.

If God is omnipotent, and man is His creation, then He could have created them to be, or behave, in any fashion He wished. That’s what ‘all power’ means–He has all the power, and the power to do all.

If God is omniscient, He knows everything there is to know. Therefore He knows what is happening at any point in time, or at any time. That’s what “all knowing” means.

If some of His creations make bad decisions, then He a: created them so that they could and would, and b; knew that they could and would; after all, that’s how He created them.

Therefore, if some of them are going to screw up and earn eternal hellfire, then He is responsible; He created them, and, in creating them, deliberately created them so that they would make those choices.

If He created all things, then He also created the hell that He is sending them to.

He is, in sum, a rather sadistic puppet master who throws His own creations into eternal hellfire for the flaws He deliberately carved into them.

(I already warned people that I have a problem with hyperCalvinism.)

So…if we assume that He is both omnipotent and omniscient, we also claim that He is omnibenevolent (impossible, if any of His creations are punished in hell for flaws that He deliberately placed in them) It is a seemingly insoluble paradox.

Some explain it by saying that just because He knows what will happen, it doesn’t make Him responsible for what happens…but that’s not correct.

It is a matter of law all over the world that the creator is responsible for the creation: the carpenter who builds a house with flaws IS responsible when it falls down and kills someone. Ask any judge. Anywhere. So if God deliberately creates a being in such a way that he WILL choose badly, whose fault is that?

But we, as Christians, believe that God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. If we are His creations, then all the above applies. There isn’t any way to get around it, is there?

…QUOTE]

I agree. Unfortunately many Christians are in no danger of thinking about what you’ve written, as they’ll simply refuse to even ponder the facts.

 

[rbiaca]

It is an interesting exercise in logic.

If God is omnipotent, and man is His creation, then He could have created them to be, or behave, in any fashion He wished. That’s what ‘all power’ means–He has all the power, and the power to do all.

If God is omniscient, He knows everything there is to know. Therefore He knows what is happening at any point in time, or at any time. That’s what “all knowing” means.

If some of His creations make bad decisions, then He a: created them so that they could and would, and b; knew that they could and would; after all, that’s how He created them.

Therefore, if some of them are going to screw up and earn eternal hellfire, then He is responsible; He created them, and, in creating them, deliberately created them so that they would make those choices.

If He created all things, then He also created the hell that He is sending them to.

He is, in sum, a rather sadistic puppet master who throws His own creations into eternal hellfire for the flaws He deliberately carved into them.

(I already warned people that I have a problem with hyperCalvinism.)

So…if we assume that He is both omnipotent and omniscient, we also claim that He is omnibenevolent (impossible, if any of His creations are punished in hell for flaws that He deliberately placed in them) It is a seemingly insoluble paradox.

Some explain it by saying that just because He knows what will happen, it doesn’t make Him responsible for what happens…but that’s not correct.

It is a matter of law all over the world that the creator is responsible for the creation: the carpenter who builds a house with flaws IS responsible when it falls down and kills someone. Ask any judge. Anywhere. So if God deliberately creates a being in such a way that he WILL choose badly, whose fault is that?

But we, as Christians, believe that God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. If we are His creations, then all the above applies. There isn’t any way to get around it, is there?

…

I agree. Unfortunately many Christians are in no danger of thinking about what you’ve written, as they’ll simply refuse to even consider what it actually means for a God to be both omniscient and omnipotent.

For many Christians, all creators are responsible for their creations…except for one exception, their God.

Their God gets a free pass.

 

[rbiaca]

But He gave us free will… and He doesn’t want ANYONE to perish.

If I don’t want anyone to drown in my backyard pool I would build a fence, post warning signs and install floating water alarms to sound if someone falls into the water. If someone did fall into the water, I would rescue them.

If someone wants to kill themselves, the police can apprehend them, take them to a hospital against their will and medical staff can try to treat them, in order to keep them alive and to prevent them from ending their lives.

Mortals are willing to save the lives of others and at times, saving lives against the will of the victim…yet this God is content to watch his children commit eternal suicide and then with a wave of his hand, he can utter ’ free will’.

If God didn’t want anyone to go to hell, no one would go to hell. People choose to go to hell, fine I’ll give you that.

Who created hell, allows hell to exist and chose hell as a destination for his wayward children?

Answer - God

Hell is Gods creation, not mans.

 

[rbiaca]

She didn’t. I didn’t. What do you ask on earth?
I was going to actually be intelligent, but I think I have an ulcer after reading one or two posts. So, I will leave it at this: I think that poodles come from poodles. Birds come from birds. Intelligence comes from intelligence.

youtube.com/watch?v=yieUeAyWbbo&feature=related

By your logic… Gods come from Gods.

 

[happilycatholic]

whoa, where did the subject of predistination go?

 

[dianaiad]

I too think poodles come from poodles and birds come from birds, who on earth doesn’t?

I don’t. I mean, if I came from birds, I’d have better feathers…

However you don’t think Intelligence comes from intelligence, you think god came from nowhere out of nothing.

Well, to be honest, some think so. Some think He has simply always been, some have an entirely different idea of where He came from, and some say, simply “we don’t know. He hasn’t told us.” I know that it is very human to want to know everything right this second, and more usually, to think we DO know everything. It is also a tendency of ours, as humans, to think that if we don’t know everything about something, then anything we do know is false.

Still does not addess why the origin of the universe would be a “who”. By your logic above, universes come from universes

Isn’t that comparing birds and houses?

 

[erigby27]

Hell is Gods creation, not mans.

God didn’t “create” Hell. Hell is not a place or a tangible creation of God. Hell is simply our word for “eternal death”. Eternal death is what happens when we reject God, because without Him we die eternally. Of Course God didn’t create the rejection of himself. But as we have free will, we can either accept or reject Him. Obviously, God hopes we accept Him. If we do not, we die eternally because of our separation from Him.

 

[dianaiad]

If I don’t want anyone to drown in my backyard pool I would build a fence, post warning signs and install floating water alarms to sound if someone falls into the water. If someone did fall into the water, I would rescue them.

If someone wants to kill themselves, the police can apprehend them, take them to a hospital against their will and medical staff can try to treat them, in order to keep them alive and to prevent them from ending their lives.

Mortals are willing to save the lives of others and at times, saving lives against the will of the victim…yet this God is content to watch his children commit eternal suicide and then with a wave of his hand, he can utter ’ free will’.

If God didn’t want anyone to go to hell, no one would go to hell. People choose to go to hell, fine I’ll give you that.

Who created hell, allows hell to exist and chose hell as a destination for his wayward children?

Answer - God

Hell is Gods creation, not mans.

Actually, you are comparing apples to oranges.

The problem with the concept of God and an after life is that when discussing either, you have to throw out any concept of physical death, because the whole point of heaven, hell and who goes where is that physical death is irrelevant. It’s a hiccup. A door. The gate—but by no means an ending. Certainly it’s not an ending from the POV of deity.

Whereas physical death, from the POV of a parent, IS. No matter how much faith a parent has, he or she isn’t going to see the dead child again in this life. So of course we have the fences and the warning signs and the forced restraints and the restrictions on free will.

But what if the situation isn’t about life itself ending? What if it is about…a career choice? If your child decided, in the middle of his junior year in college, that he didn’t want to be a doctor any more–but would rather build cars, instead?

What if he never went to college, but learned to be an amazingly artistic, sought after and highly paid body shop mechanic, and decided to drop all of that and go back to school to become an engineer?

How about the kid who wants to be a singer? A nurse? An exotic dancer?

How much do you think you have the right, or obligation, to force this kid to follow the career you think is best for him?

That’s a little closer to the mark, I think.