why would any rational person believe this???!!!

[Charles_Darwin]

I don’t. I mean, if I came from birds, I’d have better feathers…

You came from a human

Well, to be honest, some think so. Some think He has simply always been, some have an entirely different idea of where He came from, and some say, simply “we don’t know. He hasn’t told us.” I know that it is very human to want to know everything right this second, and more usually, to think we DO know everything. It is also a tendency of ours, as humans, to think that if we don’t know everything about something, then anything we do know is false.

Right, so you agree that the claim intelligence must come from intelligence is not correct.

 

[dianaiad]

I don’t. I mean, if I came from birds, I’d have better feathers…

You came from a human

Well, that joke fell flat…ah, well, most of mine do.

Right, so you agree that the claim intelligence must come from intelligence is not correct.

nope.
At least, not ultimately.

See, I happen to be an evolutionist; I buy into the entire theory. What I do not buy into is the idea that if the theory of evolution is true, then that means there is no God. I simply believe that evolution is how God did it.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

nope.
At least, not ultimately.

See, I happen to be an evolutionist; I buy into the entire theory. What I do not buy into is the idea that if the theory of evolution is true, then that means there is no God. I simply believe that evolution is how God did it.

Faith enough, but you do realize that is a faith based statement, which is not needed given the observable evidence. I.E evolution can occur naturally, so no god is needed. Further more many of the processes in evolution directly contradict your position. For example the random mutations which obviously would not be random if they were guided.

 

[dianaiad]

Faith enough, but you do realize that is a faith based statement, which is not needed given the observable evidence. I.E evolution can occur naturally, so no god is needed. Further more many of the processes in evolution directly contradict your position. For example the random mutations which obviously would not be random if they were guided.

That’s a bit circular, y’know…and begging the question.

Frankly, assigning the term ‘random’ to an occurrence is as much a statement of faith as 'God did it."

By the way, there isn’t any thing wrong with statements of faith. Science and religion–should stay far away from each other. The second one of 'em starts trying to explain the other, everybody gets in trouble, and people get hurt–and there’s no reason that they should be at odds with one another, y’know.

When science asks ‘why,’ it is really asking “how?” Or “How did that get here?” Or “how did this human being get from there to here?” Or “how does that mountain grow?”. Or it may ask “what happens if?” or “I wonder if I could…?”

but it does not address, in any field, the grand, metaphysical “why?” of things. Science is observational. It links causes and effects…it might even track the Big Bang down to the instant of time just before it went bang—but it will never find out, because it will never ask, 'why?"

Religion assumes (and here is the faith part…) that there is a reason, and that reason has to do with something bigger than we are; that there is a purpose for all of this. Religion does not need to dictate the ‘how’ to science in order to examine the “why,” and science doesn’t need to pretend that the question “Why” doesn’t need answering simply because science can’t answer it.

There.

Dang, my soapbox is starting to look a little ratty. Better get off it.

 

[pickguard1]

I wonder if this helps at all?

John 6:37-43 (New International Version)
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that** I shall lose none of all that he has given me, **but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

It seems to me that God has made some people **for heaven **as evident by this scripture? So why not hold the opposite; for hell…?
Can you see why I posted it here?

xxx zundrah xxx

I think there is some confusion here - heaven’t read all the posts yet, but to me there should be a great distinction between the Knowledge of God, and the *Will *of God. That God knows all things, and therefore knows who will be with Him in heaven and who will turn away and condemn themselves to hell, doesn’t mean that He wills that to be so. The end result (of some going to heaven or hell) is not a result of His Will, or some sort of predestination (in that some were created with a specific destination as a foregone conclusion). Rather, the end result is a matter of our free will, which is either conformity or non-conformity to His Will (which is that all should be saved.)

ALL were created to know love and serve God, and ALL do have the ability to choose to do so. The fact that some haven’t or won’t doesn’t, and God knows this doesn’t mean they had no choice in the matter.

Believing in “predestination” as such only leads to dispair or indifference. For if it’s already decided (which is completely different that already known) what our end will be, whatever we do or don’t do doesn’t change that, hence, no need to worry about anything. This leads to complete anarchy if followed to its logical conclusion.

 

[pickguard1]

Predestination and the such, to my way of thinking, is a misunderstanding of God and His relationship to time.

God is extemporal He is outside of time. So while God will know, at the moment of your birth, the name of your spouse and how many kids you will have and where your soul will end up it is NOT due to predestination. God is outside time so He can see it all as one instance and will know how the story ends.

Can God intervene to stop one from going to Hell? Of course, but at the moment of your birth He is also at the moment of intervention.

This is one of the many reasons that man cannot truly understand the nature of God.

I agree that projecting our human perception of the accident of time onto God results in all sorts of confusion - it just doesn’t work. We can’t anthropomorphise God (speaking of His eternal nature). And again, as others have said here, God’s knowledge of all things (especially someone’s loss of salvation) doesn’t mean the door to salvation wasn’t ever open to them in the first place (which is what I take predestination to hell to mean). The contrary - that Christ’s salvation is for all is there in black and white…some choose to reject it.

 

[pickguard1]

god doesn’t even know this… He knows who we MAY be likely to marry, etc… but it is our choice whehter to marry this person or that… or in my case, marry no one at all… because … never mind… We have choice every step of the way… . i don’t agree… God chose to not know what our choices would be… He only knows what we are INCLINED to do… what we will probbly do… knowing that we are sinners, very weak, etc… we have total free will… except that we are so pathetic we NEED Jesus… because our will is so weak… and so, without Jesus… we are lost… but there is no such thing as God know what our choices are going to be… If that were the case, it would hardly be choice… i don’t know where people get these notions…

I disagree here - I believe that God DOES know what our choices will be. His knowledge of our future sins isn’t a desire for them, or a positive will for them, it’s just knowledge, pure and simple.
He may choose to intervene positively for us to avert our own self destruction, (this is how I understand the working of Grace in our lives - God’s intervention) but I do not believe He intervenes negatively by willing us to commit sin - the choice is always still ours. This is to say that He doesn’t withold grace from us on His own account, it’s that it’s withheld when it’s rejected by us.

 

[distracted]

What on earth are you talking about.

i guess you’re dissapointed 'cause i don’t make any more sense than you do?

 

[distracted]

I disagree here - I believe that God DOES know what our choices will be. His knowledge of our future sins isn’t a desire for them, or a positive will for them, it’s just knowledge, pure and simple.
He may choose to intervene positively for us to avert our own self destruction, (this is how I understand the working of Grace in our lives - God’s intervention) but I do not believe He intervenes negatively by willing us to commit sin - the choice is always still ours. This is to say that He doesn’t withold grace from us on His own account, it’s that it’s withheld when it’s rejected by us.

well, your view is not Catholic…

The Catholic Church does not teach predestiantiion.

 

[distracted]

I don’t. I mean, if I came from birds, I’d have better feathers…

You came from a human

Well, to be honest, some think so. Some think He has simply always been, some have an entirely different idea of where He came from, .

here’s my edjumacated opinion…

i don’t know everything about God

i don’t have to in order to know He exists…

As someone once said If God didn’t exist it would be necessary to invent Him…

He has to exist… It just wouldn’t be right for Him not to exist…

(I have other scientific data to base my assertion on… but uh… that’s enough for now… This mass of gray matter that Someone or Something created… or that just Big Banged its way into existence… is kinda tired… )

 

[pickguard1]

well, your view is not Catholic…

The Catholic Church does not teach predestiantiion.

I think you misunderstand me - I don’t believe in predestination, nor do I believe the Church teaches it. I am simply stating that SOME people confuse God’s knowledge of all things (therefore knowing who will ultimately end up in heaven and hell) with willing a priori (without the cooperation or non-cooperation of our free will) those ends. This is definitely not the case.

 

[distracted]

I think you misunderstand me - I don’t believe in predestination, nor do I believe the Church teaches it. I am simply stating that SOME people confuse God’s knowledge of all things (therefore knowing who will ultimately end up in heaven and hell) with willing a priori (without the cooperation or non-cooperation of our free will) those ends. This is definitely not the case.

this sounds illogical…

if we have free choice, we are “gods” in our own right… even the bible says something to this effect…

if we are free… and gods… we have absolute choice to do w ahtever comes into our minds/hearts…

and therefore there is no way God could KNOW what ourchoices are before they are made. This takes nothing away from God’s omniscience… He chose for things to be this way when he made us gods… able to choose…

 

[pickguard1]

this sounds illogical…

if we have free choice, we are “gods” in our own right… even the bible says something to this effect…

if we are free… and gods… we have absolute choice to do w ahtever comes into our minds/hearts…

and therefore there is no way God could KNOW what ourchoices are before they are made. This takes nothing away from God’s omniscience… He chose for things to be this way when he made us gods… able to choose…

Why is there no way? The creature is not above the creator.

 

[distracted]

Why is there no way? The creature is not above the creator.

huh???

 

[pickguard1]

huh???

How do you assume that God has “no way” of knowing our future actions? Is God’s knowledge limited? Your assumption that He “chose to not know our future actions” is just that - an assumption, and one which is neither defined nor held by the Catholic Church as far as I know. Remember, God is outside of time, so “future actions” really only applies to us. God doesn’t do anything in the past, or in the future - it only appears that way from our perspective as beings living inside of time. God’s knowledge is the same, it’s not knowledge of the past, present and future, since it’s outside of time - it’s knowledge of all. When we apply the terms past, present and future, we only apply them to how we see them here on earth. God is not constrained by such things.

 

[distracted]

How do you assume that God has “no way” of knowing our future actions? Is God’s knowledge limited? Your assumption that He “chose to not know our future actions” is just that - an assumption, and one which is neither defined nor held by the Catholic Church as far as I know. Remember, God is outside of time, so “future actions” really only applies to us. God doesn’t do anything in the past, or in the future - it only appears that way from our perspective as beings living inside of time. God’s knowledge is the same, it’s not knowledge of the past, present and future, since it’s outside of time - it’s knowledge of all. When we apply the terms past, present and future, we only apply them to how we see them here on earth. God is not constrained by such things.

well, i guess we believe in two different Gods…

i know i am right…

 

[happilycatholic]

ALL were created to know love and serve God, and ALL do have the ability to choose to do so. The fact that some haven’t or won’t doesn’t, and God knows this doesn’t mean they had no choice in the matter.

Let me just say… Yay!

:clapping: :dancing::extrahappy:

 

[happilycatholic]

I think you misunderstand me - I don’t believe in predestination, nor do I believe the Church teaches it. I am simply stating that SOME people confuse God’s knowledge of all things (therefore knowing who will ultimately end up in heaven and hell) with willing a priori (without the cooperation or non-cooperation of our free will) those ends. This is definitely not the case.

Actually pickguard, the Church does teach a form of predestination and also says that belief against it amounts to heresy.

BUT…and this is a BIG BUT…what you stated in one of your previous posts comes very close to what the Church actually teaches on predistination.

The Church teaches that predestination DOES NOT equal predetermination and it does not negate free will. You can go here to read what the Church teaches:

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

There are several good sources on the Church’s position on predestination. I would not go too far into it though unless you have a good foothold on faith. It can be very daunting to say the least.

 

[pickguard1]

Actually pickguard, the Church does teach a form of predestination and also says that belief against it amounts to heresy.

BUT…and this is a BIG BUT…what you stated in one of your previous posts comes very close to what the Church actually teaches on predistination.

The Church teaches that predestination DOES NOT equal predetermination and it does not negate free will. You can go here to read what the Church teaches:

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

There are several good sources on the Church’s position on predestination. I would not go too far into it though unless you have a good foothold on faith. It can be very daunting to say the least.

Yes, I agree, I think what is happening here is confusion of terms (probably by me as well:blush. I think that predestination and predetermination are being used synonomously. If one is going to end up in heaven or hell in the end, that is the person’s ultimate destiny. None of us knows this here on earth, except by a special grace from God. Only God knows everyone’s ultimate destiny (from which the word destination is derived). However, that ultimate destination is NOT predetermined BY God. Yes, His will is that we all go to heaven, but it is the cooperation of our Free Will that makes the “determination” that leads to the “destination.”

By a special grace, God may give knowledge to a living person that their ultimate destination is heaven, so in that sense that person has been predestined…but that doesn’t forgoe their cooperation with God’s will to get there…it just lets them know that through God’s grace they will persevere. It doesn’t decide their acts for them.

 

[pickguard1]

well, i guess we believe in two different Gods…

i know i am right…

I am hurt if you imply that I believe in a God that doesn’t exist…for that is what you truly say, since there is but one God, and if you say we believe in different Gods, then one of us worships no God at all…

I believe we both believe in The One True God, just that you, like me, find Him ineffable, and His ways inscrutible. We should all be here to learn and support eachother, not tear eachother down.