why would any rational person believe this???!!!

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pickguard1 said:
Yes, I agree, I think what is happening here is confusion of terms (probably by me as well:blush:). I think that predestination and predetermination are being used synonomously. If one is going to end up in heaven or hell in the end, that is the person’s ultimate destiny. None of us knows this here on earth, except by a special grace from God. Only God knows everyone’s ultimate destiny (from which the word destination is derived). However, that ultimate destination is NOT predetermined BY God. Yes, His will is that we all go to heaven, but it is the cooperation of our Free Will that makes the “determination” that leads to the “destination.”

By a special grace, God may give knowledge to a living person that their ultimate destination is heaven, so in that sense that person has been predestined…but that doesn’t forgoe their cooperation with God’s will to get there…it just lets them know that through God’s grace they will persevere. It doesn’t decide their acts for them.
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It seems that predestination can be a slippery slope of sorts. I know it could have been in my case. At first I just couldn’t grasp the thought that such a belief could be contained within catholicism, but sure enough …there it is!

It took reading several things over and over (and over) before I began to realize that it is a Mystery and I am not equipped with the tools to explain it or even totally understand it. IMHO, belief in predestination is simply the belief that God is all-knowing and if we just leave the rest to faith, it’s easier that way.

I think people over analyze and scare themselves to death (I did) when in actuality there are theologians who can’t quite get a full grip on the issue. I believe Calvin did this and then went on to form a doctrine that would ensure his place in Heaven. I think this is the only way he and others could explain doctrines like OSAS and Salvation without works and all kinds of other protestant beliefs.

IDK, I could be wrong.
 
HappilyCatholic, your link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Predestination is excellent - thanks! here is an excerpt from it that I think is very helpful in understanding Predestination vs. Predetermination (i.e. fatalism) with my emphasis…and notes

“(1) The first quality, the immutability of the Divine decree**(That is, of predestination)**, is based both on the infallible foreknowledge of God that certain, quite determined individuals will leave this life in the state of grace, and on the immutable will of God to give precisely to these men and to no others eternal happiness as a reward for their supernatural merits. Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, with all the different measures of grace and the various degrees of happiness, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient. Hence the Good Shepherd says of his sheep (John 10:28): “And I give them life everlasting; and they shalt not perish forever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.” But we must beware of conceiving the immutability of predestination either as fatalistic in the sense of the Mahommedan kismet or as a convenient pretext for idle resignation to inexorable fate. God’s infallible foreknowledge cannot force upon man unavoidable coercion, for the simple reason that it is at bottom nothing else than the eternal vision of the future historical actuality. God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it. Whatever may promote the work of our salvation, whether our own prayers and good works, or the prayers of others in our behalf, is eo ipso included in the infallible foreknowledge of God and consequently in the scope of predestination (cf. St. Thomas, I, Q. xxiii, a. 8).”
 
pickguard1 said:
HappilyCatholic, your link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Predestination is excellent - thanks! here is an excerpt from it that I think is very helpful in understanding Predestination vs. Predetermination (i.e. fatalism) with my emphasis…and notes

“(1) The first quality, the immutability of the Divine decree**(That is, of predestination)**, is based both on the infallible foreknowledge of God that certain, quite determined individuals will leave this life in the state of grace, and on the immutable will of God to give precisely to these men and to no others eternal happiness as a reward for their supernatural merits. Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, with all the different measures of grace and the various degrees of happiness, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient. Hence the Good Shepherd says of his sheep (John 10:28): “And I give them life everlasting; and they shalt not perish forever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.” But we must beware of conceiving the immutability of predestination either as fatalistic in the sense of the Mahommedan kismet or as a convenient pretext for idle resignation to inexorable fate. God’s infallible foreknowledge cannot force upon man unavoidable coercion, for the simple reason that it is at bottom nothing else than the eternal vision of the future historical actuality. God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it. Whatever may promote the work of our salvation, whether our own prayers and good works, or the prayers of others in our behalf, is eo ipso included in the infallible foreknowledge of God and consequently in the scope of predestination (cf. St. Thomas, I, Q. xxiii, a. 8).”
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Good Stuff!

I kind of look at it like this:

I have two children. I have the power to give them everything they need to be successful and I do so. However, I also have the power to give them freedom of choice and I do so because I want them to succeed not only to be successful, but also to have a part in that success or else there really is no reward in the end. It is my only way of letting them live their own lives. If I don’t, then and only then am I making the absolute choice for them.

But I also have full knowledge of their choices and the end result of said choices. I know one will succeed and one will fail. I proceed because I love them both equally and with all my heart.

In the end one succeeds and one fails, not because I didn’t give them what they needed or because I knew what would happen. The one failed because he made choices that resulted in failure. He always had the same tools to work with, he just didn’t use them.

The fact that I knew about it beforehand and still gave him the choices only SOLIDIFIES free will, it in no way negates it. The only way to take away free will is for the Holy Spirit to use his foreknowlege to prevent us from failing.

It is ultimately our cooperation with the Holy Spirit in the “beginning” that determined our future.
 
happilycatholic said:
Good Stuff!

I kind of look at it like this:

I have two children. I have the power to give them everything they need to be successful and I do so. However, I also have the power to give them freedom of choice and I do so because I want them to succeed not only to be successful, but also to have a part in that success or else there really is no reward in the end. It is my only way of letting them live their own lives. If I don’t, then and only then am I making the absolute choice for them.

But I also have full knowledge of their choices and the end result of said choices. I know one will succeed and one will fail. I proceed because I love them both equally and with all my heart.

In the end one succeeds and one fails, not because I didn’t give them what they needed or because I knew what would happen. The one failed because he made choices that resulted in failure. He always had the same tools to work with, he just didn’t use them.

The fact that I knew about it beforehand and still gave him the choices only SOLIDIFIES free will, it in no way negates it. The only way to take away free will is for the Holy Spirit to use his foreknowlege to prevent us from failing.

It is ultimately our cooperation with the Holy Spirit in the “beginning” that determined our future.
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This is a great analogy and fits perfectly with our understanding of God as our heavenly Father.
 
pickguard1 said:
This is a great analogy and fits perfectly with our understanding of God as our heavenly Father.
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as an aside, since God is eternal, and we derive all our being from Him, it is safe to say that when we act in this way, it is BECAUSE that is how God acts, our desire to grant our children free will in their decision making process along with providing them the tools to make the right decisions is a reflection of God, not the other way around…

Of course, letting your kids do the wrong thing is always a tough pill to swallow, but sometimes we have to learn the hard way…🙂 I know I did 😃
 
pickguard1 said:
This is a great analogy and fits perfectly with our understanding of God as our heavenly Father.
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Thank you so much. If it’s correct, it comes only by and through the Holy Spirit.

I think we are afraid that we’ve failed before we begin. But we as Christians know that God is a loving God and we have Scripture and as catholics, Tradition, to teach us that God is merciful and forgiving.

All that’s left is faith in God and His mercy when it comes to the choosing of His Elect. No where does it say we must be perfect. I think God has been more merciful than our minds can imagine. We have been forgiven countless times and will be forgiven countless more.

We should worry more about serving the Lord to best of ourability. I think that’s the point made my Aquinas, Augustine and Paul.

Worry about your journey. The Lord has worked out your Destiny.

😃
 
pickguard1 said:
as an aside, since God is eternal, and we derive all our being from Him, it is safe to say that when we act in this way, it is BECAUSE that is how God acts, our desire to grant our children free will in their decision making process along with providing them the tools to make the right decisions is a reflection of God, not the other way around…

Of course, letting your kids do the wrong thing is always a tough pill to swallow, but sometimes we have to learn the hard way…🙂 I know I did 😃
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Absolutely. Well said.
 
happilycatholic said:
Thank you so much. If it’s correct, it comes only by and through the Holy Spirit.

I think we are afraid that we’ve failed before we begin. But we as Christians know that God is a loving God and we have Scripture and as catholics, Tradition, to teach us that God is merciful and forgiving.

All that’s left is faith in God and His mercy when it comes to the choosing of His Elect. No where does it say we must be perfect. I think God has been more merciful than our minds can imagine. We have been forgiven countless times and will be forgiven countless more.

We should worry more about serving the Lord to best of ourability. I think that’s the point made my Aquinas, Augustine and Paul.

Worry about your journey. The Lord has worked out your Destiny.

😃
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AMEN!
 
Side note:

Our priest asked this question once:

Why did Paul work out his salvation with fear and trembling?

Some said because he was afraid he was going to hell.

The priest said, probably not.

He was probably more afraid of not going to Heaven.

Some said, what’s the difference?

The priest said something like:

We must fear the absence of God more than we fear the presence of Satan.

I like that. 🙂
 
happilycatholic said:
Side note:

Our priest asked this question once:

Why did Paul work out his salvation with fear and trembling?

Some said because he was afraid he was going to hell.

The priest said, probably not.

He was probably more afraid of not going to Heaven.

Some said, what’s the difference?

The priest said something like:

We must fear the absence of God more than we fear the presence of Satan.
I like that. 🙂
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Absolutely! This is why the old act of contrition is so beautiful - "I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they have offended you who art all good and deserving of all my love.

We should fear offending the pure love and goodness of God for His own sake. If we love God, really, we have no reason at all to fear the presence of Satan, because God will give us all the tools (grace) we need to resist the devil. Rather, all our focus should be on pleasing God because, hey, he deserves it after all. And that is a pretty tall order (obviously even for St. Paul :D)
 
pickguard1 said:
Absolutely! This is why the old act of contrition is so beautiful - "I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they have offended you who art all good and deserving of all my love.

We should fear offending the pure love and goodness of God for His own sake. If we love God, really, we have no reason at all to fear the presence of Satan, because God will give us all the tools (grace) we need to resist the devil. Rather, all our focus should be on pleasing God because, hey, he deserves it after all. And that is a pretty tall order (obviously even for St. Paul :D)
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Hey, where’d everybody else go? :ehh:
 
pickguard1 said:
Guess we resolved the issue with this one? :dancing:
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I was going to say, we sure did lick that predestination thing!

**Edit (I just realized the use of the word “lick” in this pretense may be a “southern thing”. With that said, I feel the need to define it as such: Kicked it’s boohiney.)

😃

(kidding)
 
happilycatholic said:
I was going to say, we sure did lick that predestination thing!

**Edit (I just realized the use of the word “lick” in this pretense may be a “southern thing”. With that said, I feel the need to define it as such: Kicked it’s boohiney.)

😃

(kidding)
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I wonder what it would taste like if we did actually lick it? :rotfl:
 
pickguard1 said:
Maybe I will - with something a bit more obvious than the title to this thread…like -

Yes - Catholics also believe in predestination - so there!
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but…should it be started in aplogetics or in non-catholic religions? hmmmmmm:hmmm:
 
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